Feral Megathread - Page 77

North101 · 02/15/08, 12:54 PM

Didn't see this mentioned but I finally got on to the PTRs and checked out the new lacerate. After doing a few tests, the it was almost exactly 1% AP per application at each of the AP levels I tried.
As for how the initial bleed damage scaled, they seemed to have nerfed the initial damage to around 25 at ~300 AP but made it scale and do around 42 damage at around 2500 AP and I was having it crit for around ~100 with trinkets. It is possible that this is a bug or they forgot to update the tooltip for it.

Malazaar · 02/15/08, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by North101

Didn't see this mentioned but I finally got on to the PTRs and checked out the new lacerate. After doing a few tests, the it was almost exactly 1% AP per application at each of the AP levels I tried.
As for how the initial bleed damage scaled, they seemed to have nerfed the initial damage to around 25 at ~300 AP but made it scale and do around 42 damage at around 2500 AP and I was having it crit for around ~100 with trinkets. It is possible that this is a bug or they forgot to update the tooltip for it.

Lacerate 2.4:

Initial Damage: 31 + 1 % AP, modified by Naturalist
Total Bleed Damage: 155 + 5 % AP per Application, modified by Naturalist and Mangle.

(Determined by linear regression with 99.7 % accuracy)

This effectively means your TPS increases by 0.825 % of your AP with a mangled 5-stack lacerate that's refreshed once every 12s (i bit more or less depending on your crit rate and the target's armor). So that's a 21 TPS increase with 2500 AP, not really noticable.

Edit: I didn't include bear aggro bonus and initial damage in the TPS calc.

North101 · 02/15/08, 1:13 PM

Originally Posted by Malazaar

Lacerate 2.4:

Initial Damage: 31 + 1 % AP, modified by Naturalist
Total Bleed Damage: 155 + 5 % AP per Application, modified by Naturalist and Mangle.

(Determined by linear regression with 99.7 % accuracy)

This effectively means your TPS increases by 0.477 % AP with a mangled 5-stack lacerate.

Hmm, are you sure? I used this calculation and got roughtly 1% AP per application at every AP level I tried.

((damage / 1.1 / application) - 31) / ap * 100

And I was able to make the initial bleed of lacerate go down to 25 at ~300 AP.

Malazaar · 02/15/08, 1:21 PM

Are you sure you did the tests on mobs with very little or no armor ? I ran the test exclusively on critters (at least for the initial damage).

Edit: For the bleed damage keep in mind i'm refering to the TOTAL damage, not the damage per tick - divide it by 5 if you want it on a per-tick basis.

North101 · 02/15/08, 1:23 PM

Originally Posted by Malazaar

Are you sure you did the tests on mobs with very little or no armor ? I ran the test exclusively on critters (at least for the initial damage).

Bleed damage ignores armor though

Akhtal · 02/15/08, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Allev

I'm amazed that it simplifies to this... I would have thought the "average" time to proc would be imbalanced either by the greater likelihood that you'll proc the first time, or by long miss streaks (i wouldn't have thought they balance each other equally), but I guess I'm wrong. Thanks!

To clarify, it'll proc on the 10th landing attack (with specials obviously), so you still have to model with miss/dodge (or rather hit/expertise)... If the proc rate ever change, you know how to get the new value

Astrylian · 02/15/08, 7:07 PM

So, I have good news and bad news regarding Rawr b11.

First, the bad news:

See all those disabled controls in the options screen in cat mode, that I said would be functional in b11? Sorry, not going to be ready for b11.

Now that that's out of the way, lets talk about the good news, what IS going to be in b11:

All stats editable in the Item Editor
Models updatable independently of Rawr itself
Fixed a couple dual-monitor bugs
Buffs now have tooltips in the charts
Added Weapon Properties (min/max damage, speed)
Metagem requirement detection (optional)
Updated almost everything for 2.4. Don't try to refresh data on any 2.4 items though, it'll just throw an error because the Armory doesn't have them yet.
Added calculations for more cat idols
You can now swap models on the fly
Revamped the item slot/type system to support more items in the ranged slot, offhand items, projectiles, projectile bags, different armor classes, and weapon/armor proficiencies.
Rawr'll remember what model you last used and start up in that mode.
There's a list of recently opened documents in the File menu now.
Added support for all races, though Cat and Bear only provide race stats for the two races that can be Druids.
Added filtering of items to only ones with stats relevant to the current model.
ExposeWeakness is now available for cats, and there's a slider on the options tab to control how much AP it provides
Bloodlust, Drums of Battle, and Drums of War are now available to cats, and there are 3 sliders on the options tab to control how much uptime each has.
Models can now define their own custom charts. Cat now provides Combat Table (White), Combat Table (Yellow), and Relative Stat Values. Bear provides Combat Table, and Relative Stat Values

You may notice that several of those items sound like they're useless to ferals, or even to all druids... and you'd be correct. No druid will need to use different races, or equip a projectile, no feral will need an offhand, etc. But these features are going in, to prepare for more models. I'd love to say that Rawr.Moonkin and Rawr.Tree are in the works, but they're not, not directly anyway. Rawr.Hunter is though, because someone came to me asking to build a Hunter model, which sounds good to me. If anyone knows C#, and is intimately aware of the theorycraft of Moonkin or Trees, please let me know, I'd love for you to make a Moonkin or Tree model, and I'll do everything I can to make sure Rawr supports everything you need for it. I've been doing a whole lot to make Rawr not just a tool for ferals, but rather a platform for all theorycrafters. For example, I've made only the bare minimum required defined in the model, and everything in the model base class is fully documented.

I hope to have b11 released within a few days, and I hope to be able to report a wide variety of Models in development soon.

P.S.: Don't be too concerned by this, Feral is still my passion, my primary focus. I'm just trying to open Rawr up so that other people who have different passions can build something just as special for their peers. I don't intend to be actively developing any of the other models myself.

EDIT: Oh, and you can resize the main form.

oldmandennis · 02/15/08, 7:37 PM

Looking forward to it!

xyruul · 02/15/08, 8:04 PM

That's pretty cool. Ultimately one day I'd like to see every model for every class and spec incorporated, with a raid dps simulator to test out different group setups. Why bother raiding when you can just simulate it! ^^

edit: I'll miss the shred spamming filter though. :/ Really looking forward to that one

seminarca · 02/15/08, 8:14 PM

Astrylian, tons of good new features, and support for more idols will be great.

A feature request: can you add an option so that it only lists a piece of armor once with optimal gems? E.g. I don't really need to know that Belt of One-Hundred Deaths is better than my current belt with [10 Agi, 4 Agi/5 Str] OR with [10 Agi, 5 Agi/7 Sta] OR with [8 Agi, 4 Agi/6 Sta]. Add to this another option asking what's the highest level of gems you have access to (rare, epic) and it should clutter up the item list much less.

Thanks!

Astrylian · 02/15/08, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by seminarca

Astrylian, tons of good new features, and support for more idols will be great.

A feature request: can you add an option so that it only lists a piece of armor once with optimal gems? E.g. I don't really need to know that Belt of One-Hundred Deaths is better than my current belt with [10 Agi, 4 Agi/5 Str] OR with [10 Agi, 5 Agi/7 Sta] OR with [8 Agi, 4 Agi/6 Sta]. Add to this another option asking what's the highest level of gems you have access to (rare, epic) and it should clutter up the item list much less.

Thanks!

How to properly handle gems, and minimize clutter like you mention, is a huge topic of its own... There are lots of ways to tackle it, and it's at least functional and not too messy as it is, so I want to really figure out the best way to do it before making any changes.

Aranan · 02/16/08, 12:31 AM

I tried my hand at limiting the gems, once. I attempted to remove all of the gems aside from the ones I had access to/was interested in, but it seemed like they couldn't be deleted.

Perhaps just have check boxes on gem levels? Uncommon, Rare, Heroic Instances, Epic?

raffy · 02/16/08, 3:03 AM

New Badge Ring:

Sunwell Badge Loot - Tank Ring
Binds when picked up
Unique
Finger
392 Armor
+45 Stamina
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 28 (1.48% @ L70).

Sunwell Badge Loot - Tank Ring - Items - World of Warcraft

Finally, after over a year of raiding, finally a ring upgrade post-Kara.

seminarca · 02/16/08, 3:30 AM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

How to properly handle gems, and minimize clutter like you mention, is a huge topic of its own... There are lots of ways to tackle it, and it's at least functional and not too messy as it is, so I want to really figure out the best way to do it before making any changes.

Fair enough =x

Haven't seen this posted yet:
[Staff of the Forest Lord]
Binds when picked up
Two-Hand Staff
135 - 298 Damage Speed 3.00
(72.2 damage per second)
+50 Strength
+52 Agility
+78 Stamina
Durability 120 / 120
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases attack power by 1110 in Cat, Bear, Dire Bear, and Moonkin forms only.

Anyone know what happened to Stanchion of Primal Instinct btw? Read about it at some stage, but haven't seen it on MMO Champion or Wowhead yet.

stayclean · 02/16/08, 3:34 AM

Anyone know what happened to Stanchion of Primal Instinct btw? Read about it at some stage, but haven't seen it on MMO Champion or Wowhead yet.

It hasn't dropped on the PTR's yet, and it isn't part of the new "badge" loot. So they haven't got a link or any stats for it at the moment.

raffy · 02/16/08, 3:37 AM

Originally Posted by seminarca

Haven't seen this posted yet:
[Staff of the Forest Lord]
Binds when picked up
Two-Hand Staff
135 - 298 Damage Speed 3.00
(72.2 damage per second)
+50 Strength
+52 Agility
+78 Stamina
Durability 120 / 120
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases attack power by 1110 in Cat, Bear, Dire Bear, and Moonkin forms only.

Seriously Blizzard, we need a new tanking weapon. Agility, armor, expertise, stamina. Doing all of Sunwell with the SSC staff is going to be embarrassing.

Protagonist · 02/16/08, 5:02 AM

Astrylian, thanks for building us this awesome tool! Looking forward to the new version of Rawr.

One thing I'd like is a way to see all the differences compared to last saved version for Basic/Complex Stats. This would make it much easier to see exactly what would change compared to my current gear if I upgrade/resocket/switch around some gear (a typical use case for me at least).

Originally Posted by Aranan

I tried my hand at limiting the gems, once. I attempted to remove all of the gems aside from the ones I had access to/was interested in, but it seemed like they couldn't be deleted.

Maybe I'm missing something here but I don't see the problem. The gear lists only shows things added through the item editor so you have full control over it. To prevent irrelevant or default items from showing up, simply use the item editor to delete/resocket (you can always add them back later). The item editor is still a bit clunky but workable.

seminarca · 02/16/08, 5:05 AM

Originally Posted by stayclean

It hasn't dropped on the PTR's yet, and it isn't part of the new "badge" loot. So they haven't got a link or any stats for it at the moment.

Ah k, makes sense too. Stanchion of Primal Instinct has 1197 FAP vs the 1110 on Staff of the Forest Lord (same as S3), so it's higher ilvl, very likely a Sunwell drop, perhaps off the latter bosses.

Originally Posted by raffy

Seriously Blizzard, we need a new tanking weapon. Agility, armor, expertise, stamina. Doing all of Sunwell with the SSC staff is going to be embarrassing.

Pretty much. I'd say spam "suggest" it on PTR .. it worked for Malorne gloves back in the day. I might write up a post for the PTR forums later if I have some time, maybe we can get our point across there.

Astrylian · 02/16/08, 5:18 AM

I figure a couple people here may get a chuckle out of this...

I spent a few hours tonight attempting to fix two bugs in the Rawr.Cat model. Or at least, I thought they were bugs. Turns out that in both cases, I had just made Rawr too accurate.

First, I spent a while trying to figure out why it was rating Belt of Natural Power with 2x 12sta gems higher on dps than Belt of Natural Power with 2x 10agi gems. I searched and searched, and just couldn't figure out why it would think that 24sta > 20agi for dps... Then I realized that I had "Enforce Metagem Requirements" turned on, and that I needed a blue gem to activate my metagem. It really was saying that 24sta+12agi+3%dmg on crits > 20agi, which is quite true.

Then I spent a while trying to figure out a bug in my new Relative Stat Values chart. This chart includes several fake items which give +1 to a variety of stats, so that you can see how much 1agi is worth compared to 1str, or 1hit, or 1haste, etc. I would occasionally see it giving skyhigh values for agi, just over double what I thought it should have been. Then I'd change on piece of gear, and it'd go back to the normal value. This wasn't just slight changes as you'd expect from scaling of the different stats, this was huge changes. In one case, I was swapping between 2 identical chestpieces, except one had an 8agi gem, and the other had a 5agi/5hit gem. You'd expect 1agi to be worth very slightly more when the 8agi gem was equipped, but instead, 1agi was valued twice as highly with the 5agi/5hit gem equipped than with the 8agi. I struggled for over an hour to figure out why, when it hit me. 1agi really was worth twice as much in that case, because at that exact agi amount, adding 1agi, combined with the rounding that WoW does, from SotF and BoK, rounded up to 2 agi. (For example, BoK gives 10% more agi... You've got 9agi now, BoK gives you 9.9, but WoW still rounds that down for a total of 9. Add 1 agi to give yourself 10, BoK gives you 11, and that rounds to 11. Started with 9, added 1 agi, and got 11.) I still haven't figured out exactly how I want to make that more/less accurate (or rather, more informative), but at least for b11, it'll probably really be doing the value of 10agi, divided by 10. That makes is bounce up and down a bit depending on how many rounding breaks are within that set of 10, and it also scales it up slightly as agi increases, but it's at least closer.

Mijae · 02/16/08, 7:41 AM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

I still haven't figured out exactly how I want to make that more/less accurate (or rather, more informative), but at least for b11, it'll probably really be doing the value of 10agi, divided by 10. That makes is bounce up and down a bit depending on how many rounding breaks are within that set of 10, and it also scales it up slightly as agi increases, but it's at least closer.

This is exactly what I do for my spreadsheet. I actually have it an adjustable value. There's really no good way to avoid the interaction with BoK. You'ld also have to figure in SotF and even buffs like Mol'dar's Moxie. There's also problems with defense and expertise rounding different ways than base stats.

unitsinc · 02/16/08, 8:50 AM

The new Sunwell badge ring is identical to The Signet of Primal Wrath in all ways except it has 29 agi instead of 28, and 29 stam instead of 30.
So the JC ring and badge ring are looking like the two top choices for DPS.

And as for the new Badge ring, would would you suggest doing in order to make up for the lost defense? Just gem in a bit more?

Valerian · 02/16/08, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by unitsinc

The new Sunwell badge ring is identical to The Signet of Primal Wrath in all ways except it has 29 agi instead of 28, and 29 stam instead of 30.
So the JC ring and badge ring are looking like the two top choices for DPS.

And as for the new Badge ring, would would you suggest doing in order to make up for the lost defense? Just gem in a bit more?

New Resilience/sta head enchant can help a lot with being crit immune too.

As for the staff it does seem odd that its another DPS staff. That said it would take a major rework of it to change it to a tanking one. I'd suggest focusing comments and changing the Pillar from Str->Agi which would make it a strict upgrade to Wildfury for tanking.

Inaiwae · 02/16/08, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Valerian

... I'd suggest focussing comments and changing the Pillar from Str->Agi which would make it a strict upgrade to Wildfury for tanking.

Yes, that's the way i think is the best. I already filled suggestion on PTR to replace str with agility, and please everyone who has the opportunity do so as well.

vuche · 02/16/08, 10:42 AM

Hello, I would need an advice on macro mechanics. To get to the point, today I edited my old macro for shred and added equip idol bit.

/cast [nostealth] Shred; [stealth] Ravage
/equip [noequipped:Everbloom Idol] Everbloom Idol

Also I made a macro for mangle and Idol of terror:

/cast Mangle (Cat)(Rank 3)
/equip [noequipped:Idol of Terror] Idol of Terror

This is the reason why i changed macros. Idol of Terror's proc is keept even when the idol is unequiped, so when doing cat dps, if it proces gives 65 agility over 10 seconds and in cat (Agility = 1.133 (1.25) AP, 1% crit per ~25 agility (1% crit per ~22 agility)) so it seemed like a nice boost to dps when in cat.

I came up with the idea (I know it's pretty obvious but until lately my main concern was tanking) while browsing items yesterday for dkp values and I came across a highlighted comment on this page:Idol of the Crescent Goddess - Items - World of Warcraft... anyway I'll copy/paste the important bit:

All relics (Idols, Totems and Librams) can be macro'ed to be swapped AFTER the cast. The swapping of relics in fight incurs a global cooldown. Adding the swap after the cast 'feeds' the global cooldown you would get from swapping into the global cooldown you will get from the spell cast. The key factor though is that due to the way the game parses you can still get the full benefit from the idol even if technically speaking it wasn't really equipped when the cast was made.

So if I understand correctly... idol change does trigger gcd but if in macro it comes second (after cast part) it kinda goes into gcd of the spell. Tested it today and I do get the proc on first mangle in my mangle macro. Still don't quite get this part so if there's someone with more knowledge on this I'd appreciate any reply. Bottom line is: Do I loose any dps when doing this and if so is the dps gained from idol's proc higher?

Valerian · 02/16/08, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by vuche

Unless something has recently changed, swapping an idol resets your white swing counter. As such you'll lose a white hit on average switching two idols which is generally a DPS loss.