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Old 01/10/08, 5:10 PM   #1321
the KRIS
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Originally Posted by Thorek View Post
I personally use Shadowmoon Insig + Moroes. I really like the +defense that Shadowmoon gives me for becoming crit immune. The two together is what we've started to call "Bear Wall". I actually bound it to a macro to yell it out and pop both trinkets... In the words of another raid member "its like a raid wide heroism. you pop bear wall and everyone gets pumped" I can't tell you the amount of times that 'bear wall' has saved my life in sticky situations...
You could also incorporate the "bearstand" macros folks have been talking about post-2.3, and pop a super pot + master healthstone in the same millisecond that you pop both trinkets. Assuming that none of those things will trigger a GCD and prevent instantaneous bear shifting.

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Old 01/10/08, 7:26 PM   #1322
wuffles
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Thorek View Post
I personally use Shadowmoon Insig + Moroes. I really like the +defense that Shadowmoon gives me for becoming crit immune. The two together is what we've started to call "Bear Wall". I actually bound it to a macro to yell it out and pop both trinkets... In the words of another raid member "its like a raid wide heroism. you pop bear wall and everyone gets pumped" I can't tell you the amount of times that 'bear wall' has saved my life in sticky situations...

For example, a fel raged target dies and goes right back on me at 5%.. BEAR WALL!!! Dodge, Dodge, Dodge.. yay!!

...

I actually have one question about something completely different. Sometimes when DPSing I'll get lucky with the omen of clarity, malorne bonuses, crits on shreds, whatever! I find myself sitting at 5 combo points, and there's no way rip will have ticked off by the time I would hit 80+ energy.

If I have anything that won't let me re-apply rip... I can't do it until its ticked off. I sit at max energy just waiting to start the next cycle.

So my question is, what is generally accepted as "more" DPS. Doing another shred to delay the energy? Re-applying mangle? Or sitting at 100 energy for 2/3 seconds?

It doesn't happen very often - but was wondering what you guys had to say about this.
I can't give you any hard numbers but on the rare occasion that happens to me, I always go with an extra shred unless, due to some imperfect cycle, mangle is going to run out before rip finishes - then I'll re-apply mangle. Anything would be better than sitting at full energy for 2-3 seconds...even using Tiger's Fury.

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Old 01/10/08, 7:48 PM   #1323
• Vykromond
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This was actually analyzed in a previous feral druid thread, in the context of re-apply Rip vs. Shred again. If I recall correctly, the conclusion was that you shred again if the time on your Rip exceeds two ticks, otherwise reapply Rip. If your Rip is un-reappliable, you would naturally Shred rather than sitting with full energy.

This is actually a decision I have to make very frequently, which makes me question how useful the Malorne 2-piece bonus really is after a certain point in crit & sustained haste (in terms of chain Bloodlust & Drums).

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Old 01/11/08, 12:11 AM   #1324
Legorol
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I am looking for gear advice on Main tanking Hydross. I have looked through this thread and the previous bear threads, but all discussion seems to concern druids in an off tanking role.

If a bear were to main tank Hydross either with Nature or Frost resistance, what options does he have?
* How much resistance can he/should he get up to? Should he aim for 365?
* Can he still stay crit immune?
* If you can't achieve both the desired level of resistance and crit immunity, which one is more imporant to achieve, and why?
* What resistance gear is the best for the job? (JC crafted items + green "of frost/nature" items?)

Your insight would be greatly appreciated.

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Old 01/11/08, 12:20 AM   #1325
seminarca
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edited

Last edited by seminarca : 01/11/08 at 12:28 AM.

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Old 01/11/08, 4:03 AM   #1326
Thelliand
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dath'Remar
Originally Posted by Legorol View Post
I am looking for gear advice on Main tanking Hydross. I have looked through this thread and the previous bear threads, but all discussion seems to concern druids in an off tanking role.

If a bear were to main tank Hydross either with Nature or Frost resistance, what options does he have?
* How much resistance can he/should he get up to? Should he aim for 365?
* Can he still stay crit immune?
* If you can't achieve both the desired level of resistance and crit immunity, which one is more imporant to achieve, and why?
* What resistance gear is the best for the job? (JC crafted items + green "of frost/nature" items?)

Your insight would be greatly appreciated.

Optimally aim for 295 resistance from your gear, as you'll get 70 from the hunter/paladin aura.

Yes, it is easy to stay crit immune.

I usually OT but had to MT last week and just used:

Earthwarden
Timelapse Shard
Adamantite Figurine
Shoulder defense enchant
Ironskin Potion

Just those alone get you to crit immunity against a lvl 73 mob.

Fill in the rest with greens to 295 resist and you are good to go. Optimally get the epic ring, JC neck, and the resist head enchant. Just use greens of >lvl 65 in other slots, can add those resist armor patches also.

Once you hit 295 resist, you should have room for 2-3 pieces of your normal tanking gear to help out your threat.

It's actually fairly easy and cheap to be both uncrittable and resist capped.

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Old 01/11/08, 5:00 AM   #1327
Duilliath
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Duilliath
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Originally Posted by Legorol View Post
I am looking for gear advice on Main tanking Hydross. I have looked through this thread and the previous bear threads, but all discussion seems to concern druids in an off tanking role.

If a bear were to main tank Hydross either with Nature or Frost resistance, what options does he have?
* How much resistance can he/should he get up to? Should he aim for 365?
* Can he still stay crit immune?
* If you can't achieve both the desired level of resistance and crit immunity, which one is more imporant to achieve, and why?
* What resistance gear is the best for the job? (JC crafted items + green "of frost/nature" items?)

Your insight would be greatly appreciated.
It can be done, though the warriors get showered in Resist gear and you'll have to grab greenie/blues of the AH for it. Preferably level 69-70 ones, for the far better stats on them.

Make sure you are the Nature res tank, if possible. The JC frost resistance ring is missing 16 stamina vs the Nature Res one.

One idea might be to try the various Nameds in the Ethereum Prisons (the single key/person ones, not the elites). The Frigid Band (frost) or Living Band (nature) are quite nice if you don't need the defense from a ring slot.

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Old 01/11/08, 5:08 AM   #1328
Inaiwae
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Sylvanas (EU)
I emergency MTed hydross with about 220 resist (unbuffed). What we did was that we changed phases one mark earlier for me than for regular tank. Normaly we change at 5th mark, i was changing at 4th. It can be done if dmg is decent. If your other tank is well equipped is is probably possible to let him stay till 6th mark, too.

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Old 01/11/08, 5:21 AM   #1329
Gib
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
<oRk>
Gul'dan (EU)
I was the frost phase tank for our guild since our first Hydross kill. Used a mix of Nax resi gear and greens and to be honest, was never crit immun. Crits are only dangerous with the 100% damage debuff on you. I think I got killed a few times while or after moving Hydross to phase 2 but never before. So usually a combat rez or soulstone could fix it.

There is one big advantage, Druids have over warriors as Hydross tanks, the pull. Shifting from stealth to bear direct in front of Hydross makes sure, that he will not move at all. But I heard the aggro range got nerfed, so its maybe not a problem anymore.

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Old 01/11/08, 6:24 AM   #1330
raffy
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Suramar
Aye, the Elixir of Ironskin is pretty nice -- it basically lets you wear any neck/trinket/ring combination (tanking oriented) without worrying about being crit.

---

That being said, it reminds me of the real problem I have with the end-game Feral druid experience: a clear lack of focus.

Ferals are the ultimate roll-switcher amungst the Druid specs, yet even in our most flexible configuration, we still cannot, even in the best gear, play like a "real" Feral Druid (ie. fill multiple rolls effectively without exiting combat and changing gear).

While some of this distaste may be due to the existance and overall worship of the conventional raid healing/dps meter, I feel the problem goes much deeper than being "80% of a rogue and 80% of a warrior."

Overall, I think Blizzard has done a really poor (and almost ignorant) job of providing us with a spec that scales and performs well in high-stamina/end-game envirnoments. Even after countless hours of play, I still don't exactly understand what Blizzard had planned for the Feral spec. Since hitting 70 in the Burning Crusade, we have been plagued with itemization problems -- serious itemization problems. No other class has suffered so greatly purely from developer ignorance.

However, without blabbing on about furthur Feral pitfalls, I'd like to express my concern about the lack of focus given to the Feral class and I worry the next expansion might bring more of the same. I think the Feral community should urge Blizzard to better define our class as the next expansion approaches.

---

Here are a few ideas I had about improving our spec and refining our focus:

Edgy's Wish List

I personally feel our spec should be far more damage (Cat) oriented: with the ability to offtank (Bear) or emergency heal (Cast) in the same set of gear.
-- by offtank, I mean similar to the role we play but less of an ability to main tank.
-- by heal, I mean have the freedom and sustainability to occasionally heal nearby players without serious mana concenrs (see below).

** We shouldn't require two (or more) distinct sets of gear: a true tank/dps hybrid should be able to do both effectively in the same set of gear. Instead, our itemization should encourage hybridization and well-rounded, roll-switching playstyles.

** Armor-laden weapons, trinkets, and rings are a pathetic fix for our class. It's like FAP, but worse because it consumes the item budget. All of our armor should come from traditional armor. Instead, Feral talents should provide an Improved Bear form which provides and improved armor modifier to compensate for the loss of armor.

** While in a Feral form, the damage done by physical DoTs (bleeds) should be mitigated by armor. (like Defensive Stance, Improved Defensive Stance, and Improved Righteous Fury)

** We should be crit immune (-5.6%) purely through Feral talents. We should never need to wear +defense/resilience to tank.

** Feral talents should make Agility provide additional effects in Feral and Caster forms:
-- Feral benefit: increase the chance of getting partial hits (ie. "almost dodged").
-- Caster benefit: increase mana regen (like Aspect of the Viper).

** Feral talents should make Strength provide additional effects in Feral and Caster forms:
-- Feral: reduce incoming damage by converting a percentage of the attack into a short-duration DoT effect (similar to a Block, but without any damage reduction; similar to Deep Wounds, except it reduces the initial damage by the total bleed damage).
-- Caster: increase +healing (like Nurturing Instincts)

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Old 01/11/08, 6:26 AM   #1331
Farstrider
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Originally Posted by Thorek View Post
I personally use Shadowmoon Insig + Moroes.
Maybe a minor point but badge>moroes in my opinion - the longer duration on the dodge buff (20s vs 10s) is huge for fights like Gurtogg. If you aren't using the new Idol, get it, that's another ~4.5% dodge that should be up around 1/2 the time.

[e] Edgy/Raffy, that's a bit of an overly hopeful and unbalanced wishlist, I'm afraid. I don't want to be overly harsh, I think you have a few good ideas, you are particularly correct talking about the "fix" that we get through FAP which is plain stupid really, particularly considering how badly we scale with AP. However it seems like you want to be able to tank like a warrior, dps like a rogue, and heal like a shaman all in the same gear. That will never happen. What I will say is this, at various points in MH, obviously with gear changes, we can put out 1500 dps, tank trash & some bosses (usually Anetheron), and then add useful healing and decursing at Archimonde. I don't know what more you want than that.

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Old 01/11/08, 8:01 AM   #1332
Zeln
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Goblin Warrior
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Gib View Post
There is one big advantage, Druids have over warriors as Hydross tanks, the pull. Shifting from stealth to bear direct in front of Hydross makes sure, that he will not move at all. But I heard the aggro range got nerfed, so its maybe not a problem anymore.
Completely not a problem anymore. We had a pally tank both phases last night and he just ran in. The aggro range is pretty small.

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Old 01/11/08, 8:13 AM   #1333
Legorol
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warrior
 
Silvermoon (EU)
Originally Posted by Thelliand View Post
Optimally aim for 295 resistance from your gear, as you'll get 70 from the hunter/paladin aura.

Yes, it is easy to stay crit immune.

I usually OT but had to MT last week and just used:

Earthwarden
Timelapse Shard
Adamantite Figurine
Shoulder defense enchant
Ironskin Potion

Just those alone get you to crit immunity against a lvl 73 mob.

Fill in the rest with greens to 295 resist and you are good to go. Optimally get the epic ring, JC neck, and the resist head enchant. Just use greens of >lvl 65 in other slots, can add those resist armor patches also.

Once you hit 295 resist, you should have room for 2-3 pieces of your normal tanking gear to help out your threat.

It's actually fairly easy and cheap to be both uncrittable and resist capped.
This sounds very encouraging for our druid tank. I have checked the stats of the items you quoted, here is my calculation, please correct me if I'm wrong:

Earthwarden: 27 def rating
Timelapse Shard: 24 resi rating
Adamantine Figurine: 32 def rating
Greater Inscription of the Knight (Scryer): 15 def rating
Greater Inscription of Warding (Aldor): 10 def rating
Elixir of Ironskin: 30 resi rating

Total resi rating: 54
Total def rating: 74 (Scryer) or 69 (Aldor)
These give:
resilience: 54/39.4=1.371% anti-crit
defense: 74/2.37*0.04=1.249% anti-crit for Scryer (1.165% Aldor)

Total anti-crit: 2.620% Scryer, 2.536% Aldor.

Unfortunately, our druid is Aldor, so he will need one more item. However, overall this is extremely encouraging, thanks a lot for your input.

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Old 01/11/08, 9:10 AM   #1334
YagerMyster
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Gorefiend
Originally Posted by Vykromond View Post
This is actually a decision I have to make very frequently, which makes me question how useful the Malorne 2-piece bonus really is after a certain point in crit & sustained haste (in terms of chain Bloodlust & Drums).
You mention wasted energy with reference to haste. Does haste increase energy regeneration rates? I wasn't aware that haste would increase energy regen, but I could be misinterpreting your statement.

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Old 01/11/08, 9:13 AM   #1335
Farstrider
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Farrstrider
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The point he is making is that at a certain stage, with haste boosting attack speed and therefore Malorne 2 pc energy generation, you get more combo points than you can effectively convert into rips. At that stage it may well be worth subbing out the Malorne 2 pc for the "optimum" pieces for those slots.

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