Im sure Im losing out on dps because I dont always rip at 5 combo points.
Sure a 5 cp rip does more DPS than a 4 cp rip, but the difference is quite little (ist is lot smaller than the 3cp <-> 4 cp difference). If I remember it right, there is just static damage added from 4 cp to 5 cp, thats why its not important to get a 5 cp rip.
So if I am sitting at 4 cp waiting for the old rip to wear off, I just shred another time if there's an ooc-procc or something like this, or I have "too much" energy. I rather "secure" the 4 cp rip + mangle, rather than trying to get a 5 cp off.
Im just trying to get more of an understanding of what Im doing wrong. Im sure Im losing out on dps because I dont always rip at 5 combo points. I try to make sure that mangle is applied first before I rip, cause an non-mangled rip is so poor. But basically your saying that I should, mangle/shred/shred ---> By this point I should have 4 combo points, then i wait till I have 75-80+ energy/rip----> then what? Do I just start over with a mangle/shred/shred or do i powershift.
Your crit and hit are entirely too low. That's why you are loosing dps while waiting for 5, because it is taking you 1-2 more shreds than most people to get to 4 or 5. Yes, I know, hit isn't the greatest stat but if you have 80 something +hit you will be missing quite often (Look at a WWS parse). Lack of both is causing you to take much longer to hit 4-5 cp.
Your dps gear is enchanted and gemmed in many spots for full tank, so as long as you maintain gearing that way your dps will suffer. You have quite a few items that are eclipsed by badge items.
I hope you are saving badges for the badge reward staff. The staff from ZA runs circles around the pillar.
I try to make sure that mangle is applied first before I rip, cause an non-mangled rip is so poor.
You should rip then mangle - rip is 12 seconds and mangle is 12 seconds, and the mangle buff applies to ticks, not to the ability when you land it. If you mangle before you rip, the last tick will always miss out on the mangle buff unless you mangled again in between.
The points others have made stand - more crit, more hit, better gear in general, maybe even some expertise (shapeshifters signet is not a bad item, for example. It's not great, but it's good for hit). Idol of terror is good if you need more crit as an easy thing to get.
As an example, your stats are 1170/23.52%/87 hit.
Mine are ~1345/~31.57%/142 hit. (taken off MotW)
Our gear level is pretty comparable (4t6+extras) but the difference in DPS stats is huge because of the extra items such as trinkets (none of mine are exceptionally rare or anything), and gem choices.
LOL sorry, to answer your question, I dont use tigers fury, I know that its just a waste of energy, but I do think Im powershifting wrong. With 100 energy, and the start of a boss fight, I go in, mangle/(sometimes mangle again)/Shred/Shred ---> at this point after this if I have 4 combo points I'll try and get a 5th one. So i tend to go with the attack that comes up first. If Shred and mangle both come up at the same time, i'll shred, but if mangle only comes up I'll mangle to 5 combo points and then rip. I try to keep rip up as much as possible with a mangle applied.
In addition to what others have mentioned already, I've highlighted another part of what you're doing which is not helping you. If you're a button masher, and don't see a way of breaking that habbit, you need to switch to only mashing Shred.
Once you have 4-5cps, wait for 80 energy, Rip >>> Mangle >>> mash Shred ONLY, until you hit 4-5cps again. Even if you find yourself with enough energy to Mangle but not Shred, it's better to wait for the next energy tick and get a Shred in, or just stop mashing at 4cps and build up that 80 energy to start your cycle again. If you're using more than 1 Mangle per cycle you're probably not doing your top DPS.
As an example, your stats are 1170/23.52%/87 hit.
Mine are ~1345/~31.57%/142 hit. (taken off MotW)
Our gear level is pretty comparable (4t6+extras) but the difference in DPS stats is huge because of the extra items such as trinkets (none of mine are exceptionally rare or anything), and gem choices.
One thing about this is you can't take armoury caster form stats as being accurate in regards to crit due to using the weaponskill of whatever weapon you have equipped. Shrea only has 308 staff skill vs 349ish for Dukes. That being said, it's only a bit less than 2% crit, so even at 25% crit Shrea is sitting rather low. As a comparison point I'm sitting at 1292/32.07/121 hit with Don Alejandro's being the only piece of gear from Hyjal/BT.
You should rip then mangle - rip is 12 seconds and mangle is 12 seconds, and the mangle buff applies to ticks, not to the ability when you land it. If you mangle before you rip, the last tick will always miss out on the mangle buff unless you mangled again in between.
The points others have made stand - more crit, more hit, better gear in general, maybe even some expertise (shapeshifters signet is not a bad item, for example. It's not great, but it's good for hit). Idol of terror is good if you need more crit as an easy thing to get.
As an example, your stats are 1170/23.52%/87 hit.
Mine are ~1345/~31.57%/142 hit. (taken off MotW)
Our gear level is pretty comparable (4t6+extras) but the difference in DPS stats is huge because of the extra items such as trinkets (none of mine are exceptionally rare or anything), and gem choices.
Additionally, the first tic of Rip doesn't hit until 2 seconds after you've used the ability.
What's interesting about this, is 2 seconds is our energy tic time, yes? That's why I rip when I'm at 45+ energy (2T6, 50+ w/o 2T6), it sets you up perfectly for Rip->EnergyTic->Mangle->RipTic.
This assumes you're hit-capped, leaving only the errant dodge to screw you up.
Last edited by HaklePrime : 03/04/08 at 12:33 PM.
Reason: Numbers are hard
Additionally, the first tic of Rip doesn't hit until 2 seconds after you've used the ability.
What's interesting about this, is 2 seconds is our energy tic time, yes? That's why I rip when I'm at 35+ energy (2T6, 40+ w/o 2T6), it sets you up perfectly for Rip->EnergyTic->Mangle->RipTic.
This assumes you're hit-capped, leaving only the errant dodge to screw you up.
Don't you mean 45+ (50 w/o 2p6) energy since rip cost 30?
Rip (15 left) > Energy Tick (35)> Mangle
Not trying to be picky, just want to make sure if I'm missing something or not
Your crit and hit are entirely too low. That's why you are loosing dps while waiting for 5, because it is taking you 1-2 more shreds than most people to get to 4 or 5. Yes, I know, hit isn't the greatest stat but if you have 80 something +hit you will be missing quite often (Look at a WWS parse). Lack of both is causing you to take much longer to hit 4-5 cp.
Your dps gear is enchanted and gemmed in many spots for full tank, so as long as you maintain gearing that way your dps will suffer. You have quite a few items that are eclipsed by badge items.
I hope you are saving badges for the badge reward staff. The staff from ZA runs circles around the pillar.
Im definately liking all the feedback Im getting. Yes some of my gear is enchanted/gemed to full tanking, thats because Ive just now started getting into dpsing more. Letting the backup feral druid get some experience.
I am trying to find some upgrades for some of the items I do have. The ZA staff is a huge upgrade from pillar, as is the s3 staff (hopefully they drop soon). The trinket area, im a little hazzy on, because there are so many choices that i could go with. Any recommedations?
With everyone's imput Im going to focus more on dpsing cycle come next BT raid. And see how much it improves.
You should rip then mangle - rip is 12 seconds and mangle is 12 seconds, and the mangle buff applies to ticks, not to the ability when you land it. If you mangle before you rip, the last tick will always miss out on the mangle buff unless you mangled again in between.
The points others have made stand - more crit, more hit, better gear in general, maybe even some expertise (shapeshifters signet is not a bad item, for example. It's not great, but it's good for hit). Idol of terror is good if you need more crit as an easy thing to get.
As an example, your stats are 1170/23.52%/87 hit.
Mine are ~1345/~31.57%/142 hit. (taken off MotW)
Our gear level is pretty comparable (4t6+extras) but the difference in DPS stats is huge because of the extra items such as trinkets (none of mine are exceptionally rare or anything), and gem choices.
So as you can see, my dps stats are a little on the low side. In cat form my crit jumps to 33.6%/3378/87 hit which in my opinion should be higher. Are there a few gear suggestions or gem changes that I can make to raise these stats until said gear drops. Ive tried some of the programs found on druid wiki but the spreadsheets are a little confusing and a little outdated.
I believe with my new knowledge of the dps cycle/powershifting and gear improvements I'll be able to make a greater contribution to my raid.
Im definately liking all the feedback Im getting. Yes some of my gear is enchanted/gemed to full tanking, thats because Ive just now started getting into dpsing more. Letting the backup feral druid get some experience.
I am trying to find some upgrades for some of the items I do have. The ZA staff is a huge upgrade from pillar, as is the s3 staff (hopefully they drop soon). The trinket area, im a little hazzy on, because there are so many choices that i could go with. Any recommedations?
With everyone's imput Im going to focus more on dpsing cycle come next BT raid. And see how much it improves.
For DPS trinkets my ideal set up in 2.3 would be DST (got mine last night in a pug raid finally!) and Madness of the Betrayer which I don't have. I probably won't get it either, as 2.4 brings the [Shard of Contempt] which is crazy good for a 5 man drop, and I'll roll with that and DST in 2.4.
Obviously 4-6 are very easy to obtain so if you don't have them I'd start there. I always preferred 6 over 5 but most people seem to prefer the other way round so thats how I listed it. Come 2.4 I'd slot [Shard of Contempt] between DST and madness.
Its tough to say as you're in your tank gear logged out now and I didn't see what you had in DPS gear earlier.
By the way your tank gear seems to be 5 defense under the crit cap.
Last edited by Vaccine : 03/04/08 at 11:59 AM.
Originally Posted by Shadowed
The best part is, not only were you late in linking it, that's an April fools topic from 6 months ago.
Was playing around a bit with RAWR and come to think about tank trinket usage in 2.4. I always liked the ohshit-possibilites in Badge + Moroes but I of course also picked up Shadowmoon.
The new trinket from Mag Terrace is really good even after nerf and, as I approve of the earlier posts pointing out that stamina will be needed in the beginning of Sunwell, I probably will use that one.
Shadowmoon is awesome because it frees up alot of defense obviously and especially so when loosing S3 bracers and Magtheridon ring to T6 and new badge ring respectively.
On the other hand you loose the ohshit-usage of the old ones and I cant really decide which two to use, and want to hear some other opinions about this. Of course there are different trinkets for different situations but what would you use for your general tanking set, say for example on Kalecgos and Brutallus?
I'll have to lose some hit enchants/ items and will want to add some expertise to make threat more stable- if I can get armour capped without [Badge of Tenacity] and rely on getting devotion aura for a fight I'd like to go with [Commendation of Kael'thas] and [Shard of Contempt].
Vaccine- you're forgetting about [Berserker's Call], which I guess is somewhere above Hourglass at least.
For DPS trinkets my ideal set up in 2.3 would be DST (got mine last night in a pug raid finally!) and Madness of the Betrayer which I don't have. I probably won't get it either, as 2.4 brings the [Shard of Contempt] which is crazy good for a 5 man drop, and I'll roll with that and DST in 2.4.
Obviously 4-6 are very easy to obtain so if you don't have them I'd start there. I always preferred 6 over 5 but most people seem to prefer the other way round so thats how I listed it. Come 2.4 I'd slot [Shard of Contempt] between DST and madness.
Its tough to say as you're in your tank gear logged out now and I didn't see what you had in DPS gear earlier.
By the way your tank gear seems to be 5 defense under the crit cap.
First about the tank gear, I logged off after getting my Pepe's enchanted, I was doing some enchant testing. I have Sillk's Cloak in the bag. I use that mostly. More armor, a lil less stam, but defense and dodge. Pepe's is good if its like single target boss fights. I might even use it for tanking Flames of Azzinoth, but thats off topic.
With the list you written, items 4-6 are easyily obtainable. Fact is I have two of them already. I was using Bladefistbreadth, and the Ashtounge Talisman. The proc is really high on it from the testing Ive done. But I know now that I wont be using mangle as much so thats going to go in the bank. The dps gear is well, alot of my tanking set, the only thing different I would say are the rings, neck, and cloak, which are:
And then for my weapon and idol Im using [Pillar of Ferocity] and [Everbloom Idol]. My thing is, from the numerous post on here that I've read, Ive got items that are geared towards dps, but on the list of top dps items, there on the low end. That coupled with the fact that Ive been doing my dps cycle wrong, it can diffently show that Im not putting out as much as I can. Even if I did have the items I have, but I was doing the dps cycle/poweshifting correctly it might not be as bad. Hopefully with the help here, I will see a definate increase on my guilds WWS pages.
I haven't tested this yet, but I would say if you aren't going to enchant your Tier 6 for dps, it would probably be better to use 2 piece tier 4 enchanted for dps, to get the set bonus, and some more rogue orientated gear, particularly given your earlier complaint of not being able to shred enough while your mangle debuff is active.
<Fric> I think the only kind of gay buttsex I'd enjoy on any level would be assraping a smug hipster douchebag (also possibly a roid head and/or fratboy/Jersey Shore cast member)
Don't you mean 45+ (50 w/o 2p6) energy since rip cost 30?
Rip (15 left) > Energy Tick (35)> Mangle
Not trying to be picky, just want to make sure if I'm missing something or not
Whoops! Thanks for that catch. I was picturing it in my head, and remembered the 35 was the important number, but that was because of Mangle, not the Rip.
Also, for those wanting to up their DPS, an energy tic mod is extremely useful for timing Rip->Mangle cycles. I believe there's one built in to Xperl, and there are a number of stand-alone ones floating around the UI sites.
I haven't tested this yet, but I would say if you aren't going to enchant your Tier 6 for dps, it would probably be better to use 2 piece tier 4 enchanted for dps, to get the set bonus, and some more rogue orientated gear, particularly given your earlier complaint of not being able to shred enough while your mangle debuff is active.
With that said, in your opinion would you enchant all your t6 gear for dps?
For neck I'm not too sure. I'd be tempted to get Supremus neck if you could, or Kaels neck. Failing that I think the heroic dps neck and the other kara neck (worgen claw or something) rank in better than the one you have.
@Sunwell gear
I was taking my first proper look at the new Sunwell gear today. Mainly I was looking at potential upgrades and a possible set combining 4 pieces of T6 and some of the new ones. Quick listing of my conclusions.
[Demontooth Shoulderpads]: Incredibly marginal upgrade from T6 mitigation wise. What it does shine at is a lot more threat geneartion. The inclusion of sensible sockets also allows some mix of 15 stam, 10 agi and 5agi/7stam gems to get the bonus 3 agi which is really worth it.
[Item not found!]: Nice upgrade. 11 agility and 15 stamina over T6 is a solid upgrade and the crit rating more than makes up for the loss of a little ap. Again, good socket colour and bonus allows a 5agi/7stam gem to effectively become a 5agi/13 stam gem. Or a 10 agi gem to 10agi/6stam.
[Gloves of the Forest Drifter]: This is a strong upgrade from T6. Loss of 5 strength is made up for tenfold with 2 extra agility, 11 extra stam and a whole extra socket as well as having armour penetration. Socketed for 10agility+5agi/7stam these gloves make excellent DPS gloves as well. The extra socket is the big selling point over T6 though as it allows a lot more stats.
[Harness of Carnal Instinct]: This ones an oddity, one of the two new pieces that has less rather than equal armour to its T6 equiv. Giving up that 54 armour and a little strength nets you 8 agility, 13 stamina, some armour penetration and an amazing socket bonus (4 agi). The yellow socket could be a little tricky to acheive the bonus but its a good place to stick a defense/resilience gem if you're still lacking in the new patch (after losing ring defnense for the new heroic ring). Its not such a huge upgrade as I'd like to see though to be honest from a chest item.
[Leggings of the Immortal Beast]: I'm loathe to lose the massive amount of +hit on the T6 leggings. But the two extra sockets on this item make it a no brainer. A large chunk more stam, a little extra agility and another armour penetration stat. May need to make the hit up somewhere else though, or possibly through in a couple of 5agi/5hits into the odd yellow socket that appears (like on chest).
So for the bonus I would probably use: [Thunderheart Waistguard]: Makes up for the majority of hit lost on T6 legs. Concerned about the lower armour and loss of a socket though. Deeper theorycrafting may turn up that the loss here is worth less than keeping a T6 elsewhere and natural power here. I'll look into it when I have more time. [Thunderheart Treads]: Very solid upgrade over den mother. Expertise is also great. [Thunderheart Wristguards]: Nice enough for what it is. New helm enchant should go a fair way to making up lost resilience from the PvP bracers most use. [Thunderheart Pauldrons]: As I said above, the demon tooth shoulders are a tiny upgrade mitigation wise for these shoulders. Their threat generation stats are nice but unlikely to outweigh the Swipe bonus, especially with all the crit and armour pen helping swipe threat far more than with lacerate, even after the AP scaling.
For the other 4 slots I'd use the gear above. That gear has 0 resilience and 0 defense.
EDIT: Rushing out of work but my math actually looked wrong here, will recheck when I get home.
Which leaves us wanting for 5 defense rating. A single [Enduring Seaspray Emerald] in any of the multitude of yellow or blue slots on the gear will hit the nail bang on the head for defense. The rest of the slots will go to the new badge ring, the new heroic trinket and Badge of Tenacity.
The only unfortunate thing about this build is it leaves us slightly short of the armour cap, about 800 (675 with terror proc).
Originally Posted by Shadowed
The best part is, not only were you late in linking it, that's an April fools topic from 6 months ago.
What about [Band of the Abyssal Lord]. Its got great defense and +hit. I can't tell you how many times Ive tried to mangle in bear form and missed. There is a lack of Armor, just one of my personal preferences.
New to the forums as a registered user but a long time reader of the thread. I'm looking for some feedback for my situation on how to defend feral druids and their viability in raids.
Currently I'm in a guild that has cleared TBC content to date and we use 2 prot warriors + 1 prot pally as our tanks. For situations that require an additional tank we have one of our dps warriors respec. That being said we do not have any feral druids in our raid. Our GM is a firm believer that feral druids are not viable in raids as there are better options. Since we have 3 tanks already he doesn't feel a feral tank is required. For dps, he would prefer to roll with an extra hunter or rogue vs a cat because they are better dps output.
I currently raid as a resto druid but I'd like to give it a go as feral in 25 mans. I already have a half decent bear/cat set (mix of gear from ssc/tk/hyjal/bt) which can easily be upgraded as we are finished content and loot is rotting. But I am having difficulty convincing my GM that a feral druid would be useful (in our situation) and not gimp/slow down the raid.
Anyone have any thoughts?
On a side note, throughout the thread I've seen a lot of theoretical dps (via Rawr) but I rarely see many actual dps reports. It would be helpful if people could come forward with their cat experiences and discuss what kind of dps they are actually hitting in 25 mans.
Thanks in advance for responses and thanks to all the contributors.
What about [Band of the Abyssal Lord]. Its got great defense and +hit. I can't tell you how many times Ive tried to mangle in bear form and missed. There is a lack of Armor, just one of my personal preferences.
I've got it and I use it on trash but I simply couldn't give up such a huge chunk of armour for a little hit when tanking anything substantial.
Just tested and removing the Karazhan ring in bear form causes me to drop 2156 armour. That just isn't an acceptable loss for a little hit. Gemming a few agility/hit pyrestones is a much better route to go if you feel lacking.
Last edited by Vaccine : 03/04/08 at 2:39 PM.
Originally Posted by Shadowed
The best part is, not only were you late in linking it, that's an April fools topic from 6 months ago.
With the list you written, items 4-6 are easyily obtainable. Fact is I have two of them already. I was using Bladefistbreadth, and the Ashtounge Talisman. The proc is really high on it from the testing Ive done. But I know now that I wont be using mangle as much so thats going to go in the bank.
The proc rate listed for the ashtongue is 40%, however all testing I've done (several hundred mangles) and what I kept turning up was between 20-25%, which is terrible since you only mangle to keep the debuff up. I personally think the trinkets is garbage.
Last edited by Blazefire : 03/04/08 at 4:00 PM.
Reason: typo
The proc rate listed for the ashtongue is 40%, however all testing I've done (several hundred mangles) and what I kept turning up was between 20-25%, which is terrible since you only mangle to keep the rebuff up. I personally think the trinkets is garbage.
Forget about the Ashtongue Talisman, if you use a standard cycle it is worse than Badge of Tenacity for DPS (which is actually a tank trinket).
New to the forums as a registered user but a long time reader of the thread. I'm looking for some feedback for my situation on how to defend feral druids and their viability in raids.
Currently I'm in a guild that has cleared TBC content to date and we use 2 prot warriors + 1 prot pally as our tanks. For situations that require an additional tank we have one of our dps warriors respec. That being said we do not have any feral druids in our raid. Our GM is a firm believer that feral druids are not viable in raids as there are better options. Since we have 3 tanks already he doesn't feel a feral tank is required. For dps, he would prefer to roll with an extra hunter or rogue vs a cat because they are better dps output.
I currently raid as a resto druid but I'd like to give it a go as feral in 25 mans. I already have a half decent bear/cat set (mix of gear from ssc/tk/hyjal/bt) which can easily be upgraded as we are finished content and loot is rotting. But I am having difficulty convincing my GM that a feral druid would be useful (in our situation) and not gimp/slow down the raid.
Anyone have any thoughts?
On a side note, throughout the thread I've seen a lot of theoretical dps (via Rawr) but I rarely see many actual dps reports. It would be helpful if people could come forward with their cat experiences and discuss what kind of dps they are actually hitting in 25 mans.
Thanks in advance for responses and thanks to all the contributors.
Find a new guild ... seriously. Gear up and xfer.
No matter what you do it is only going to reinforce your GMs idiocy. You'll be doing something for the first time in substandard gear, compare this to your established tanks which are experienced and well geared. There is no way that you can overcome your GMs prejudice in this situation.
Post 2258 has a good druid DPS WWS. The point to druid DPS is that it increases all other physical dps, while putting out respectable numbers on its own. +5% crit is pretty sweet for rogues, hunters, enhance shamans, etc - and the +4% heal on a crit is a useful side effect.
03/03/08, 4:29 PM
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