◊ Noressa

I can tell you I was running with 198 (I think?) and wasn't able to keep 5 up on all people. It was close though, I think with my latency 230-240 will probably be just right.

Original Post by Boogsy: Now by benefactor, I am guessing that I am in fact, benefiting from the wealth of knowledge here. Or perhaps it is just benefiting from the Benefactor's Bar....a wonderful place for which I am just exploring.....and preparing to be attacked perhaps a few times
RIP Boogsy

 

Szilia

ok, I just got this from the druid I mentioned:
He managed to get 184 spell haste and was mostly able to keep up an extra lifebloom in the 7 secs cycle. So something isn't right here.

 

Pyros

Isn't that that exactly what was saying Noressa? He said with 192 he almost could get another, and you said with 184 you almost could get another.

 

Norfair

Noressa had 198 haste and *almost* could get an extra Lifebloom in, while the druid for Szilia had less haste (184) and was able to (sometimes) roll 5 Lifeblooms. The most logical explanation would be simply the lag on the server, it's very variable. So if around ~190 haste will get you almost an extra Lifebloom on PTR (a lot of lag), then it will probably be enough on a live server. Maybe you need 200, but the previously calculated haste ratings aren't much off I think.

BTW, I haven't checked this myself yet, but isn't it possible to check the amount of haste rating you have on the char tab now? If so, doesn't it show the percentual value when you mouse over it, like it does with resilience and critical strike chance? Then you can easily check if the formula on WoWWiki is (still) correct.

Keep f**king that chicken.

 

• giansm

Read post #182 again, it says that if the GCD is affected using the traditional formula (for casted spells on live servers) then the absolute minimum amount of haste required for a 5 GCD cycle is 113, if you have zero latency. What was his latency? The traditional formula indicates that with 184 haste, the required latency is 57 ms, so if his actual latency is somewhat less than that I would say the current theory is supported by his results. If his latency was consistently higher than 57 ms then something else may be going on.

 

Darion

A quick background before my questions. I have a main paladin healer and have been raid healing for a couple of years. I have a druid alt that I expect to have to 70th level in the next couple of months. I have published a spreadsheet that models raid boss fights from a paladin perspective and then analyzes/sorts healing equipment by maximum healing output in the fight. The spreadsheet can be found here:

Paladin Healing Calculator | World of Warcraft Tools | Curse

I am creating a druid equivalent to this spreadsheet and have a few questions on healing for druids.

Before I waste too much time, can anyone point me to a druid raid healing spreadsheet that has items lists and can be used to model raid fights and select the 'best' set of equipment?

Assuming there is none

1. Does the talent Gift of Nature (10% healing bonus) multiply on both the +healing portion of the heal and the base heal factor. For paladin heals the equivalent talent was changed a while back to multiply against both the base and +healing pieces.

2. Empowered Regrowth confuses me. When I look at the WoWwiki here:

Healing Comparison - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

It shows a 16% scaling for Rejuv, 14% for regrowth, and 10%-31.2% scaling for Lifebloom. No where could I find the basis for these factors. Can anyone provide a pointer or explanation? The best I can come up with is that people are combining the HoT scaling with the 20% talent bonus ie: 12/15 * 20% to show 16% for rejuv and (1 - ( 21 / 15 / ( 21 / 15 + 2 / 3.5 ) ) * 20% for 14% of regrowth.

3. I have been using the +healing down ranking formula of:

down ranking coefficient = (next spell level + 5) / current player level

So for example the down ranking coefficient for Healing Touch 8 at 70th level would be:

coeff = 50 + 5 / 70

[top] 0.79

I've seen a couple of different ways to do this. Look correct?

4. There are pieces of equipment that add to Regrowth's time. Does that change the +healing coefficients. ie: Regrowth HoT gets a 1.4 multiple due to it being 21 seconds long. 21/15

1.4. When it gets to be 27 seconds long does it have a 1.93 +healing multiplier? I'm suspecting not but don't have any proof. And yes I have factored in other multipliers to +healing for regrowth such as the down ranking coefficient and the spliting modifier that divides up the +healing between the instant part of the spell and the HoT part.

5. Ok - a newb question. When I cast a regrowth - when does the first HoT hit. At 2 seconds I know you get the 'instant' portion of the heal. When does the first 'tick' happen? At the 2 second point or at the 5 second point?

6. Has anyone done studies of the percentage of a HoT that is 'used' during raid situations? ie: Druid throws a rejuv out. It ticks 4 times. How much of those 4 ticks is actually healing vs wasted due to the player getting healed to full by someone else?

I'm sure I'll have more questions but thank you for reading this and replying with your knowledge.

 

• giansm

Darion:

1-3. On #2 I think you mean Empowered Rejuvenation but I don't know the answer to any of these, I've always done all tests with these talents on the grounds that there's not even a hint of a reason to avoid them in a raiding spec.

4. 2pc T5 extends the duration of Regrowth while keeping the tick size the same (so it does more overall healing).

5. Regrowth works exactly like all other hots, the first tick happens at (time the buff went on the target) + (tick duration). So it would be at the 5 second mark, measured from when you start casting.

6. This is interesting, I've never measured it before but just now I went to check the logs from last week's Hyjal and BT. Looking at all the encounters where I was healing tanks, the percentage of potential ticks that actually tick is generally in the 45-60% range for both lifebloom and rejuvenation. It's lower on things like Illidan where there are many healers on the tank and higher on things like Council and Azgalor. I got the number of potential ticks by looking at the uptime for the buffs "Lifebloom" and "Rejuvenation" and dividing by 3 in the rejuvenation case, which works because I am the only healing druid in our raids and so I know those buffs are from me.

 

Norfair

Both base value as +healing bonus, yes.

What Empored Rejuvenation does is basically give you 20% more +healing (but only on hots). They just added the HoT "penalty". For Rejuvenation however, due to Gift of Nature and Improved Rejuvenation, the +healing coefficient is basically back to 100%, meaning every 1 +heal you get extra will make your Rejuvenation (in total) heal also for 1 more. So in that case you could say that Empowered Rejuvenation scales for 20% (given the fact you have said talents).


Don't know this one, never really looked at it.

No, anything that changes casttime/duration does not effect the amount of healing it will do.

At 5 seconds, 3 seconds after your heal landed.

Not that I know of, it's quite hard as ticks that are overhealed do not show on the combat log. It is also highly dependent on so many factors.

Keep f**king that chicken.

 

Morakk

It depends very much on the style of healing of everyone in the raid, the fight, your composition, etc.

The easiest way to find out the percentage though, would be an mod that would keep track of how many times you casted each of your hots, and then checking WWS or whatever to see how many ticks it reports.

 

lairpie

one thing to note, in wws and recount and such, ticks where the person was already full don't show up at all. If you have a rejuv on you, but are at full hp, there's no entry in the combat log showing getting healed. From that, you can yeah, just do what gian did and count total number of times it ticked, compared to time it was up, and divide. To get a true overhealing number you'd then factor in the listed wws overhealing stat as applying to only the ticks where the target wasn't at full hp. The % is going to vary wildly from fight to fight, and based on your makeup, and worse, there's pretty much no way to calculate it or estimate it without looking at historical data for each individual person, for each fight and make up of healers and tanks.

One of the biggest issues for doing resto druid gear spread sheets is that the casting pattern varies from fight to fight a lot more for druids than most healers and spell choice varies a lot from druid to druid. As a counter example, essentially every fight for every paladin is just spamming ranks of HL and FoL. The number of targets you're healing has very little to do with it, there are no paladins that are like "based on my raid makeup, really i use almost exclusively fol". If you have a bit more +healing and less mp5, you just down rank a bit. Druids don't have the ability to trade between mana and healing output like most classes do through just using different spells or using different ranks. Because the amount of mana is fairly fixed based on the fight, there's less of a sense of balancing mp5 and +healing, and much more of a sense of you need X mana for this fight for this role and casting sequence. Having less than X is a huge loss, having more than X is a waste.

To do a druid spread sheet, you'd basically have to have a bunch of different selectable casting preferences and just strait out ask for their estimated tick effectiveness for a given fight. For some fights i literally do nothing but refresh lifebloom every gcd on 4 targets. For some I maintain lbx3, rejuv, regrowth on 2 targets. (which is one of the things where like a small amount of haste would make that a lot easier. a total of .5 seconds free time across 4 casts is not pretty) These have wildly different mana needs. You'd also have to get some sort of semi random guess as to the relative benefit of getting enough mana to not need your own innervate. You'd have to know exactly how much healing is going into the druid's druid to analyze the benefits of spirit via the aura.

Is figuring out all of that possible? Yes, of course though with a huge margin of error for tick effectiveness and layers and layers of complexity for different casting rotations and target setups. The presence of huge tiered effects with every stat other than +healing also presents a big problem. The main reason it hasn't been done though is "figure out how much mana you need, then stack as much +healing as you can without running oom" is like 99.5% as good since all the math you can do in the world is still based on some huge assumptions. If someone is willing to really work through modeling all that, I'd be glad to help, primarily on the front of laying out all the different casting patterns one could be using, and how your spirit aura affects the raid, but I'd guess no one's really crazy enough to build a spread sheet that's really anymore accurate than an educated guess would be.

Brewmaster of WBC

 

lairpie

actually, i think i'm going to add a line to my rejuv, regrowth, and lifebloom macros to output a counter to my chat log in an empty channel every time they get cast. Then I'll match # of casts for a given fight, based on chat time stamp with number of ticks. It would be interesting to see that for a few people in the same fights and see how much it varies. I'd also kinda like to see how much my own stats vary from week to week based on our raid makeup.

So, going to make my rejuv macro for instance, also do "/10 rejuv" then do a count of times it was cast during a fight, and get the tick %.

Brewmaster of WBC

 

malthrin

I'm looking forward to seeing the results. I hope you don't spam buttons as much as I do, though, or filtering that chat output for casts that actually went through will be a pain.

 

Szilia

gah, how could I forget such important data - he had 466 latency. That was why I couldn't make it fit with the currently used formula

 

lairpie

crap, forgot about that. um.... I could subtract the total number of times i get the "this ability is not recovered" message or whatever that message that spams my combat logs endlessly is telling me the gcd isn't up yet, but that wouldn't differentiate between spells. hmm.... if i can get something into the combat log instead of the chat log, then i could do a count on times it said it was casting that weren't immediately followed by the failure message. Hmmm... or i can load them into a spread sheet, both combat log and chat log, and then sort by time stamp, and kill all the casts followed by error messages.

Brewmaster of WBC

 

• giansm

This is very interesting because it should actually be completely impossible with that latency no matter how much haste you have (if you do indeed suffer a latency penalty between each cast). In fact he shouldn't even be able to get four lifeblooms in with that much latency.

I would be interested in confirmation that he consistently has around 466ms latency on the PTR (latency is different on PTR vs. live) and that he can sometimes get 5 GCDs per lifebloom cycle (which can be confirmed by lifeblooming one person, then someone else four times, then refreshing the original -OR- lifeblooming yourself, rejuvenating yourself four times, then refreshing your lifebloom).

If you would like a method that shows up on combat logs, which would be nice so we can figure out what is going on, you can lifebloom yourself once, moonfire a mob four times, and then refresh the lifebloom. The combat log should show a gain of Lifebloom (1), four moonfires, then a gain of Lifebloom (2) and a double-sized lifebloom tick. That log combined with a measurement of your latency during this process and how much spell haste you are wearing would be very helpful.

 

Norfair

I don't think you can have a direct relation to latency that way. Because in that case, if you would want to be able to roll 4 Lifeblooms in 7 seconds with 0 haste rating, you need 25 ms. I know I've been able to roll 4x Lifebloom with a substantial higher latency than that. Some say that it doesn't matter at all as the global cooldown is triggered client-side, but I don't think that's entirely true either. With very high latency it becomes impossible to roll 4 Lifeblooms, so I'm not sure how it exactly affects it.

Keep f**king that chicken.

 

◊ Noressa

The night I was trying the latency was awful, where I could see quartz do the GCD spark, but even though I pressed the key to the next person, I wasn't sure if it would go through or not. I could have 5 up, 2 on 2 people, 1 on others, but I'm not sure if it was 1 that I'd just cast and one that had timed off or not. (I left the ghosting up and had to leave the PTR server. I'll buy the spell haste legs this weekend and try to get in a lower latency time.

Original Post by Boogsy: Now by benefactor, I am guessing that I am in fact, benefiting from the wealth of knowledge here. Or perhaps it is just benefiting from the Benefactor's Bar....a wonderful place for which I am just exploring.....and preparing to be attacked perhaps a few times
RIP Boogsy

 

Kalaghan

Shouldn't that be 250ms, not 25ms? 1.5 second cast and 250ms lag is 1.75. 1.75x4 = 7 seconds

Edit: Although I'm pretty sure I've done it with well over that. I thought that now with the GCD being client side you could effectively roll 4 lifeblooms independent of your latency, so long as your latency was consistent? Spikes could still break your cycle, of course, but as long as every cast is delayed by exactly Xms, then it doesn't matter what X is.

 

◊ Noressa

Yeah, that's how I get away with 4 stacks currently, as I run with an average latency of 210, but can still manage it on live. PTR's latency has been less then stable while I've been on there.

Original Post by Boogsy: Now by benefactor, I am guessing that I am in fact, benefiting from the wealth of knowledge here. Or perhaps it is just benefiting from the Benefactor's Bar....a wonderful place for which I am just exploring.....and preparing to be attacked perhaps a few times
RIP Boogsy

 

Norfair

Argh, can't believe I made such a basic mathematical mistake. So it should be 250 ms indeed. But yes, even then I have been rolling 4 Lifeblooms without any problems. It could be true that lagspikes are the reason for failing at high latencies. I don't really care though as I don't have that a lot, only when the server is acting up.

Keep f**king that chicken.

 

Spazmo

Theoretically, as long as your latency is stable you should be able to continue rolling lifeblooms whatever your ping. I'm pretty sure your global cooldown is client side. So as soon as you press the button the GCD timer starts even though the server hasn't received the spell cast.

Imagine having a 1 second latency... you press your lifebloom button and the GCD starts. The server receives the message 1 second later, but within half a second of that you can cast the next one because your local GCD is finished. The server receives that message 1 second later as well, but it's still exactly 1.5 seconds after it received the last lifebloom cast. So even though you're 1 second behind, as long as you've got a stable latency you should be able to achieve maximum throughput.

I think that makes sense, but I could be completely wrong.

 

vincero

Hey Guys, I was hoping I could get some feedback on my healing as a druid so I can make any improvements in the way I approach healing.

Just some background info, I currently sit around 1863 +healing unbuffed and get around 2005+ healing buffed as well as 10.4k health and 10.3k mana. Generally Im used as either healing the mt or group patching which depending on the situation I'd throw a LB or two on a player depending on how much health they are losing.

Anyway, heres my wws report from Hyjal, excuse the RoS attempts, first time we attempted RoS so it was bound in wipes!

Hjal 24th Feb

 

Szilia

ok, got some new results now for you now. He wrote this with them:
He got a copy of his combat log, but I've removed all the "3/5 12:58:57.453 SPELL_CAST_FAILED,0x00000000009C478B,Vyshee,0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,3 3763,Lifebloom,0x8,Not yet recovered " to make it easier

 

lairpie

1.093 seconds between those?

Brewmaster of WBC

 

Edghar

That's currently possible with spiking latency since the GCD is client-side. The average time between those casts is 1.35 seconds. Interesting.