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02/20/08, 5:38 PM
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#301
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Glass Joe
Tauren Druid
Aegwynn (EU)
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I just tested it and its not such a big deal.
On the live server I get 257 as tick instead of 281 (with 2358 Healing). With the Empowered Rejuvenation buff one LB (that ticks through) heals roughly the same on the ptr as on the live server. The same for pvp gear with 1500ish healing.
So they nerf LB ticks just that the emp rejuv buff doesn't change the raw healing of one LB, but the 3x stacked lb does get a nerf. And if you consider that LB would be dispelled in PVP before it ticks through, Emp. Rejuv would be even a buff for PVP.
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02/20/08, 5:41 PM
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#302
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Bald Bull
Undead Death Knight
Twisting Nether (EU)
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Originally Posted by malthrin
Looks like a ~9% nerf according to the patch notes thread. No biggie.
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Well that's a big nerf considering lifeblooms makes up for the majority of our healing, and there's nothing to balance it as far as I can tell. 4T6 is still 5% healing touch.
For random values:
2148healing Live=1823 from the 7ticks PTR=1676
1688healing Live=1508 from the 7ticks PTR=1390
Final heals:
2148healing Live=1673 PTR=1880
1688healing Live=1457 PTR=1616
So well, it's a nerf on the hot, but a buff on the final heal it seems, which somewhat makes it BETTER for pvp, and worse for pve. Not sure if that's intended.
Edit: Oh right they made it so final heal is affect by empowered rejuv. Still a weird choice
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02/20/08, 5:50 PM
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#303
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Glass Joe
Tauren Druid
Laughing Skull
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An 8% nerf, assuming 80% effective healing from lifebloom ticks, results in a 6.4% reduction in total effective healing. At 95% effective healing from lifebloom, it's a reduction of 7.6%. While raiding will go on, and resto druids will still have a place, the only effect will be to increase the healing burden of the other classes as, unlike them, our HPS is entirely capped by the stacking mechanics and GCD use, rather than having a rank choice component. I fail to see the purpose of this change.
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02/20/08, 6:09 PM
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#304
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Bald Bull
Night Elf Druid
Proudmoore
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Going by the numbers I have seen so far on the forums (two posts here and two on the official druid forums) it looks like the per-tick coefficient on a 3-stack is down from 29.42% to something like 26.4% +/- 0.2%. In absolute terms this means you would expect to lose 3% of your +healing value on a 3-stack, for example you would expect to lose 60 on your ticks if you have 2000 +healing (going from around 720 to 660). In relative terms, you would expect an 8 to 9% reduction in healing done by lifebloom, depending on how much +healing you have. In other words, it's nowhere near as bad of a nerf as the trinket thing was, and again will probably not affect our playstyle much but just make us somewhat less effective.
The situation isn't as bad as Galashin suggests, since we do have ways to increase our effectiveness, especially with the additional mana we will be receiving with the spirit changes. On single-tank fights we have a lot of ability to contribute extra raid healing through hotting and regrowths. We can also boost our healing on the MT by increasing the frequency of regrowths, including the tactic in which you use max-rank regrowth to put up a hot and then one- or two-downranked regrowth as a direct heal. Sure, it's inefficient, but the rest of our spells are so efficient that if you have the mana to burn, you might as well. When doing lifebloom cycles on multiple tanks, we can add rejuvenations if we are healing two or three tanks. We can try to get spell haste to heal 5 tanks, or to enable us to use more rejuvenations in our 3- and 4-tank cycles. We can spec Insect Swarm and use spare GCDs to put it up on the boss to boost the tank's avoidance (don't laugh, I do this sometimes).
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02/20/08, 6:19 PM
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#305
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Don Flamenco
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That's a pretty big nerf for seemingly no reason. The vast majority of resto druids are basically sacrificing everything to be really good at 1 thing, buffering tank hp. We move slow, we choose a route of rather inneficient gearing compared to other healers which can balance mana and +healing. We have the slowest big hp heal, the slowest flash type heal. We have to be in a tank group to get the most use of our 41 pt talent. Can we do other things, usually with a respec or regear, sure, but not better than any other healing class. I could play in the role of being a raid healer and do well at it, but there's no way i would be better at it than if i were to reroll a different class or find an equally geared/skilled healer of another class. Proving that druids can be good raid healers is like proving feral druids can do well in arenas. Sure with the right makeup and gear and skill you can do it, but you'd still almost always be better off being a different class.
We accept all of that to be really good at 1 thing, keeping tank(s) alive. Nerfing lifebloom's healing output after we've already had to sacrifice almost everything to get our +healing and talents to a point where lifebloom does enough to be worth it, isn't a slight balancing thing, its a big nerf.
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02/20/08, 6:19 PM
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#306
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Bald Bull
Undead Death Knight
Twisting Nether (EU)
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Originally Posted by giansm
Going by the numbers I have seen so far on the forums (two posts here and two on the official druid forums) it looks like the per-tick coefficient on a 3-stack is down from 29.42% to something like 26.4% +/- 0.2%. In absolute terms this means you would expect to lose 3% of your +healing value on a 3-stack, for example you would expect to lose 60 on your ticks if you have 2000 +healing (going from around 720 to 660). In relative terms, you would expect an 8 to 9% reduction in healing done by lifebloom, depending on how much +healing you have. In other words, it's nowhere near as bad of a nerf as the trinket thing was, and again will probably not affect our playstyle much but just make us somewhat less effective.
The situation isn't as bad as Galashin suggests, since we do have ways to increase our effectiveness, especially with the additional mana we will be receiving with the spirit changes. On single-tank fights we have a lot of ability to contribute extra raid healing through hotting and regrowths. We can also boost our healing on the MT by increasing the frequency of regrowths, including the tactic in which you use max-rank regrowth to put up a hot and then one- or two-downranked regrowth as a direct heal. Sure, it's inefficient, but the rest of our spells are so efficient that if you have the mana to burn, you might as well. When doing lifebloom cycles on multiple tanks, we can add rejuvenations if we are healing two or three tanks. We can try to get spell haste to heal 5 tanks, or to enable us to use more rejuvenations in our 3- and 4-tank cycles. We can spec Insect Swarm and use spare GCDs to put it up on the boss to boost the tank's avoidance (don't laugh, I do this sometimes).
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While I can see myself using regrowth every time I can and stuff to burn mana, it's still slower than a flash of light so it will mostly land too late. Insect swarm takes you out of treeform, fucking up mana efficiency more than the spirit change is going to give you, but yea, I'm sure I'll manage to find stuff to do anyway.
It's just weird to directly nerf our main healing spell, when as far as I could tell, it wasn't vastly overpowered. I mean, maybe it's me, but I rarely beat other healers on heal meters, and while there's a lot of stuff that go with heal meters, the only fight I can usually heal more than everyone else is Illidari Council. Every other fight, I'll end up between #2 and #4, which is good, but not totally out of line.
Don't know, in the eyes of my guildmates, it seems it's a pvp nerf, but since empowered rejuv boosts final bloom, it ends up being only a pve nerf as far as I can see it.
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02/20/08, 7:32 PM
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#307
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Von Kaiser
Draenei Shaman
Cenarion Circle
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Here's my numbers:

Only self buffed, not in tree form.
It's the same as losing a little more than 150 +heal from live for me.
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02/20/08, 7:39 PM
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#308
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Get off my lawn.
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That's pretty hilarious, significant boost to the bloom portion will benefit PvP and the reduction in periodic healing will impact PvE a lot more than PvP.
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02/20/08, 8:15 PM
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#309
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Von Kaiser
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It occurred to me that one possible reason for the nerf wasn't so much healing now, but the future of lifebloom. If you consider that +healing has practically doubled from vanilla to now, we could conclude a similiar doubling of plus healing from gear in the next expansion. It's quite possible that the mathematics behind the nerf will increase per the amount of plus healing such that 5000 plus healing would not put out such a ridiculous triple tick of lifebloom as to be overpowered.
This of course is all speculation on my part, and yet I had previously wondered at what point a continuous stream of healing every second finally becomes too powerfull for the measley amount of mana expended to make it happen. The percentage, seemingly 8%, could increase to some maximum of whatever%, finally resulting in an actual ceiling...
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02/20/08, 9:08 PM
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#310
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Silent Whatnot
Tauren Druid
Gul'dan (EU)
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Originally Posted by Ribeye
It occurred to me that one possible reason for the nerf wasn't so much healing now, but the future of lifebloom. If you consider that +healing has practically doubled from vanilla to now, we could conclude a similiar doubling of plus healing from gear in the next expansion.
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Well, Lifebloom wasn't included in vanilla, and it's a pretty safe bet that there'll be one or two new healing spells for druids included in WotLK. Also, if +heal gets doubled, so would stamina and boss damage, I assume. But there's no reason to speculate about WotLK at all, since it has nothing to do with 2.4. Sorry, there might be good (or bad) reasons for Blizzard to nerf LB, but being overpowered at +5000 heal is not one of them. Right now, it's a nerf, and many find it to be an unnecessary one.
Actually, the nerf makes picking up haste completely useless, in my opinion. Why bother running 5 stacks of LB if you have to pick up better "traditional" healing gear to make up for the loss of ~9% +heal?
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02/21/08, 2:02 AM
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#311
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Piston Honda
Tauren Druid
Gorgonnash (EU)
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Does anyone else have anything to say about the new t6 pieces? Because as it currently stands I absolutly won't give up all my stamine on bracer/wrist/waist to get haste rating-t6. Is there anything apart from some form of error on their part that would make sense to drop stamina from all new t6 pieces and add absolutly needless haste (after the lb nerf, I think no one will try to get 5 lbs rolling as it should be inferior)?
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Wash the spears . . .
. . . while the sun climbs high.
Wash the spears . . .
. . . while the sun falls low.
Wash the spears . . .
. . . who fears to die?
Wash the spears . . .
. . . no one I know!
- Aiel chant
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02/21/08, 2:13 AM
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#312
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Soda Popinski
Noressa
Tauren Druid
No WoW Account
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I'll probably use it for trash, but since most boss encounters give some pretty hefty raid damage, I'll likely stick with my higher stamina gear.
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Originally Posted by tiberion02
Guess I'm one of the girls
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02/21/08, 4:22 AM
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#313
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Glass Joe
Tauren Druid
Nathrezim (EU)
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I would propose waist/wrist/boots without stamina are no good for Arena matches. When playing resto I am normally placed in the MT group, so I very often have commanding shout and imp buff. My health value usually is quite high, so I could imagine that for some fights i could do perfectly fine.
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02/21/08, 5:28 AM
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#314
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Glass Joe
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Maybe the ability to have 4 GCD's bettween Lifeblooms with the new mana regen changes would be to OP in its current form, so it has to be toned down a bit....
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02/21/08, 5:52 AM
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#315
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Don Flamenco
Tauren Druid
Lightning's Blade (EU)
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Originally Posted by ppilatee
Maybe the ability to have 4 GCD's bettween Lifeblooms with the new mana regen changes would be to OP in its current form, so it has to be toned down a bit....
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5 lifeblooms each giving 6 ticks in approx 7 seconds is 4.28 ticks per second approx.
4 lifeblooms each giving 6 ticks in approx 6.2 seconds is 3.87 ticks per second. (6.2 is just an approximation for the refresh interval)
It's not so much the increased healing it gives (approx 10% more for ~200 haste, which is equivalent in item budget to 500 healing) but the fact that one can actually heal a whole group with it. I'm not sure 8-9% will much impact on the situation where you'd heal an entire group with lifeblooms, though.
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