Raiding as a Tree - Page 37

lairpie · 05/05/08, 3:40 AM

Originally Posted by Ecirp

I haven't had time to read through this entire forum, and my question is probably in there somewhere...but im at 2107 heals unbuffed and am wondering if i should socket straight up healing or mix it up with the new heal/spirit gem coming out and heal/int...basically what im trying to say is, is there a point where +heals aren't as important as spirit/int?

Do you run oom when using essentially all the consumables you can? If no, go pure +healing. If yes, get some spirit or mp5 in whatever ways you can get more mana while sacrificing as little +healing as possible. Making +healing socket bonuses be using purified shadowsong amethysts is a good one. Swapping to the vastly better if mana is an issue insightful earthstorm is also a good one. Becoming an alchemist and using the amazing redeemer's alchemist stone is another.

Ecirp · 05/05/08, 5:20 AM

nope...my unbuffes mp5 is aroudn 200 so i can roll LB and not run out of mana, and in that (i got illidans trinket from our first kill which is badass =D) it procs all the time so my mana regen is even better...so awesome, teardrops all the way =D

Rossaroni · 05/05/08, 8:15 AM

There's something I think worth noting when looking at the amount of regen you get from the Bangle of Endless Blessings. It has a kind of internal synergy between its proc and on use effects; that is, I've noticed a huge upgrade in mana gained if I wait until I have the Meditation buff up before clicking the trinket. Raid buffed (without spirit) tonight I was getting just over 300 mp5, and when I had Meditation and the extra 130 spirit, I was at like 430 mp5. Now, that's only going to last for 15 seconds (and will probably only affect 5 of the 6 ticks), but that's a significant increase in regen at the cost of waiting for the trinket to proc. (The only part where the math gets futzy is when you consider that sometimes you'll go a full minute or more without getting a proc.) Couple this with using the Darkmoon: Blue Dragon card's proc and you get even more regen. My druid's build is built around spirit regen--unbuffed he's at 537 sprit, 481 intellect, 604 mp5 / 219 mp5 in and out of the fsr. That's an awful lot for my progression level, but that's just my playstyle. My point, though, is that if you combine the Bangle's on use effect with its own procs and the Darkmoon card procs, you might see even more mana regen than the numbers tell you you'll get.

I have no idea how to interpret this into mathy numbers, so I'm just gonna wing this part and throw a little bit of caution to the wind. Feel more than free to correct my numbers, assumptions, and calculations, as I'm pretty new to theorycrafting.

The numbers I've come up with for my toon are:
676 Spi
603 Int
92 mp5;
which should net me
866 mp5 outside of the fsr, and 324 mp5 inside it.

(774 of the regen is the Int/Sprit, 92 comes from mp5 on gear and from Wisdom.)

I should say at this point that I usually sit around 300 mp5 raid buffed (we usually don't have Divine Spirit), and this number is always more than enough of a base for me to work from in raids. If I'm in the tank group (most of the time), I can get enough regen over a ten-minute fight between my Bangle and my Innervate to survive. I don't have to pot much. So why do I want more regen? Because I like big numbers.

So let's say that I'm using the Bangle and the Blue Dragon card (which I will be testing this week). Every minute I'll get an extra 15% regen for 15 seconds, every two minutes I'll get an extra 100% for 15 seconds, and every two minutes I'll get an extra +130 spirit. First I'll calculate these values separately, then I'll attempt to mush them together like an abomination.

Bangle Proc: +15% is an extra (774*0.15) = 116 mp5 for 15 seconds, or 348 mana per proc. (348 mana / 60 seconds)
Darkmoon: +100% is an extra (774*1) = 774 mp5 for 15 seconds, or 2322 mana per proc. (1161 mana / 60 seconds)
Bangle Use: +130 spirit makes the Int/Spi 914 mp5, which means 274 mp5 in the fsr (Intensity), for 20 seconds; with Mp5 gear/buffs, this is 366 mp5, or 42 additional mana per 5 (over 324, above), totaling 630 mana. (315 mana / 60 seconds) (Phew, there's probably an error there. Please feel free to correct me.)

So now I'll do calculations combining Procs with the Bangle Use:

Bangle Proc + Use: +15% is an extra (914*0.15) = 137 mp5 for 15 seconds, or 411 mana. (+63 mana from Use.)
Darkmoon Proc + Use: +100% is an extra (914*1) = 914 mp5 for 15 seconds, or 2742 mana. (+420 mana from Use.)
**Also note that both situations above would also gain the 630 mana from the Bangle's Use alone.**

And just for fun:
Bangle Proc + Darkmoon Proc + Bangle Use:
366 (Int/Spi/Mp5) + 914 (Darkmoon) + 137 (Bangle) = 1417 mp5 for 15 seconds, 4251 mana.
It's like a mini Innervate. Speaking of...
366 + 914 + 137 + 3656 (914*4*1, right?) = 5073 mp5 for the stacked Innervate. Big numbers, squee!

See, that last number being so big tells me I'm doing something wrong here. Am I? Or is Spirit-based regen with the right itemization just really freaking good?

This post is more or less a way for me to get started theorycrafting my Druid. Please, please correct me anywhere you see a mistake so I can figure out where my character has room to spare for improvements. I know that in terms of raid viability the situations I'm describing aren't all that pragmatic. However, with a guild that's just progressing into MH and BT, I feel like being able to survive a little longer might come in handy. I'm just exploring the best way to do that.

P.S., is the +130 spirit gained from the Bangle affected by Living Spirit? (Freakin' monkey wrench into my math there if it does.)

Next I wanna get some input on if having 676 spirit and the Raven Goddess Idol is worth it as opposed to, say, 600 spirit and the Idol. (I think 213 extra healing is cool. Big numbers.)

Arkoth · 05/05/08, 10:35 AM

It is affected by the Living Spirit talent, but all your mathematics seem quite awkvard to me.
Are really considering wearing both of these trinkets at the same time, gimping your healing into oblivion?
And on another note: I can't even think of a fight where this level of regen is viable or needed.
Between your own innervate, an occasional pot (which are just fabulous if you have the alchemy trinket), gemming some items with Purified Shadowsong Amethysts (like t6 shoulders, rage/t6 bracers, life step belt, etc) you should already have a suffiecient manapool for anything this game throws at you, even without grouping with a shadowpriest

(my experience is currently up to brut in SP)

Daedalix · 05/05/08, 11:21 AM

Although I've wanted it for some time, I just got the Bangle the other day and used it in a quick VR/Sol run last night. I was skeptical about its usefulness (I have the LCPB and Martyr) but wanted to see how it would perform. I found the proc rate to be satisfactory but streaky, leaving me with less mana at some points than the tried-and-true LCPB. I tend to chain-cast (can't seem to run out of mana unless I try and we've been short of healers lately) and was actually finding myself running low on mana because the Bangle didn't proc. From a mana regen perspective the Bangle was unimpressive, particularly with the large amount of spirit I already have. I think I'll try one more time, activating the on-use effect when I think I can stop chain-casting for a while or simply use it when the trinket itself procs.

I don't think anyone would say the LCPB can be passed up because of the large healing. It's particularly good for a druid because of how rapid we can cast spells during its duration. Because the mana-regen on it is an on-use, I can front-load my mana regen so to speak instead of the Bangle which, because you have to wait for it to proc, is back-loaded.

Personally, I do innervate myself but even without the Bangle or any special procs I can't help but have full mana and more to spare at the end of the innervate, even chain-casting for the duration. The new spirit-based regen is incredible and makes the Bangle overkill. I tend to stack spirit as a secondary stat (gem with Purified Shadow Pearls). If anything the +spirit bonus on the Bangle could be seen as a on-click +healing bonus due to ToL aura and IDS.

• Playered · 05/05/08, 1:20 PM

The proc itself will be worth around 20-35 MP5 based on your stats, and this was the smallest part of its benefit before.
The Innervate effect will net an extra 3250~ mana resulting in a passive bonus of 45(!)MP5 addition in a 6min fight with 1 use.
Each use effect alone will net a 200 mana gain from MP5, resulting in 8~ MP5 per individual use at worst and 26 MP5 if you get a 20second period of OO5SR regeneration.

So Assuming a 6 min fight with single individual use (I5SR only), and a single use/Innervate effect it nets up around 75-100MP5. Keep in mind this has the potential to do more in shorter fights or ones slightly longer where you could get a double Innervate and an additional use effect aswell.

Took it from what I posted in the trinket thread, this was thought out before 2.4 was live but taking into effect the regeneraiton bonuses, assuming a BT/MH level gear.

Kalaghan · 05/05/08, 1:57 PM

Originally Posted by Rossaroni

Bangle Proc: +15% is an extra (774*0.15) = 116 mp5 for 15 seconds, or 348 mana per proc. (348 mana / 60 seconds)
Darkmoon: +100% is an extra (774*1) = 774 mp5 for 15 seconds, or 2322 mana per proc. (1161 mana / 60 seconds)
Bangle Use: +130 spirit makes the Int/Spi 914 mp5, which means 274 mp5 in the fsr (Intensity), for 20 seconds; with Mp5 gear/buffs, this is 366 mp5, or 42 additional mana per 5 (over 324, above), totaling 630 mana. (315 mana / 60 seconds) (Phew, there's probably an error there. Please feel free to correct me.)

So now I'll do calculations combining Procs with the Bangle Use:

Bangle Proc + Use: +15% is an extra (914*0.15) = 137 mp5 for 15 seconds, or 411 mana. (+63 mana from Use.)
Darkmoon Proc + Use: +100% is an extra (914*1) = 914 mp5 for 15 seconds, or 2742 mana. (+420 mana from Use.)
**Also note that both situations above would also gain the 630 mana from the Bangle's Use alone.**

And just for fun:
Bangle Proc + Darkmoon Proc + Bangle Use:
366 (Int/Spi/Mp5) + 914 (Darkmoon) + 137 (Bangle) = 1417 mp5 for 15 seconds, 4251 mana.
It's like a mini Innervate. Speaking of...
366 + 914 + 137 + 3656 (914*4*1, right?) = 5073 mp5 for the stacked Innervate. Big numbers, squee!

K, well, as you realize you didn't include spirit in your calc. But in addition to that:
The Darkmoon card is not +100%. It's +70%, you already have 30% of your mana regen from Intensity. So 774x0.7=542mp5 for for 15 seconds or 1626 mana per proc.
You've calculated it at a bonus 42mp5 while the bangle's Use effect is active. It lasts for 20 seconds. 42mp5x4=210 mana. Where did your 630 mana come from? 210 every 2 minutes is 8.75mp5.
You're Bangle Proc + Use effect seems right. An additional 63 mana every 2 minutes works out to 2.6mp5.
Darkmoon Proc + Use: Again, you should be using +70%, not 100%, so 914*0.7 = 640mp5 for 15 seconds or 1920 mana. This is a gain of 294mana (also note 420*0.7=294), once every 2 minutes, or 12.25mp5.

Your Bangle Proc + Darkmoon + Proc + Bangle Use calc is not at all relevant. If Darkmoon Procs you are already at 100% mana return. The bangle proc does nothing to add to this. Likewise, innervating will completely negate the procs from either trinket, since with innervate you are no longer affected by the fsr. So in fact, while using the bangle in conjunction with innervates (overkill) and blue dragon procs will increase your mana return, you actually lose some of the proc effects from the bangle due to overlap.

As an aside, you commented that you don't have to pot that often. If you don't have to pot, but are using two mana regen trinkets, then you are hurting your healing because you're cheap. Pony up the dough for pots and sacrifice some of your personal regen. It will make you a better healer.

Edit: Just to elaborate on the 'overkill' bit when you use the bangle with an innervate - yes, it would provide huge returns (as noted in the above post), but nearly any PvE druid will have a full mana bar after 20s of innervate even without the bangle use, so this theoretical mana gain can never actually be obtained. Also, you can basically bump all my numbers that include the bangle Use effect up by 15% to include living spirit.

Rossaroni · 05/05/08, 4:38 PM

Originally Posted by Kalaghan

K, well, as you realize you didn't include spirit in your calc. But in addition to that:
The Darkmoon card is not +100%. It's +70%, you already have 30% of your mana regen from Intensity. So 774x0.7=542mp5 for for 15 seconds or 1626 mana per proc.
You've calculated it at a bonus 42mp5 while the bangle's Use effect is active. It lasts for 20 seconds. 42mp5x4=210 mana. Where did your 630 mana come from? 210 every 2 minutes is 8.75mp5.
You're Bangle Proc + Use effect seems right. An additional 63 mana every 2 minutes works out to 2.6mp5.
Darkmoon Proc + Use: Again, you should be using +70%, not 100%, so 914*0.7 = 640mp5 for 15 seconds or 1920 mana. This is a gain of 294mana (also note 420*0.7=294), once every 2 minutes, or 12.25mp5.

Your Bangle Proc + Darkmoon + Proc + Bangle Use calc is not at all relevant. If Darkmoon Procs you are already at 100% mana return. The bangle proc does nothing to add to this. Likewise, innervating will completely negate the procs from either trinket, since with innervate you are no longer affected by the fsr. So in fact, while using the bangle in conjunction with innervates (overkill) and blue dragon procs will increase your mana return, you actually lose some of the proc effects from the bangle due to overlap.

As an aside, you commented that you don't have to pot that often. If you don't have to pot, but are using two mana regen trinkets, then you are hurting your healing because you're cheap. Pony up the dough for pots and sacrifice some of your personal regen. It will make you a better healer.

Edit: Just to elaborate on the 'overkill' bit when you use the bangle with an innervate - yes, it would provide huge returns (as noted in the above post), but nearly any PvE druid will have a full mana bar after 20s of innervate even without the bangle use, so this theoretical mana gain can never actually be obtained. Also, you can basically bump all my numbers that include the bangle Use effect up by 15% to include living spirit.

First of all thanks for pointing out the 70% thing. I did most of this in 2 separate sessions, probably why there's a weird error here and there. I figured that there was no way you could get above 100% regen, but I hadn't ever seen it said, so that helps too.

In regards to your aside: I don't use two mana regen trinkets. I usually keep one equipped if I'm without a shadowpriest, and I've tweaked my regen enough to the point where potting is something I only have to do if I'm spamming regrowth or something. My +healing is 1740, it's not what you'd call weak. But there are some fights where I'm asked to use my innervate on a holy priest, in which case I'm on my own for regen, which is why I wanna know what I'm looking at as far as numbers from these two trinkets (separate and together). I don't ever have as much +healing as anyone else in the raid, but I'm the one with the best longevity and I can push myself harder in the big raid damage fights, so usually I end up topping the healing meters, especially in the progression fights (which are all that really matter to my guild).

The tip about Innervate overriding the procs is handy.

To Arkoth: I'm in T4/SSC/TK loot. My guild is starting Hyjal today. I'm trying to get my regen hammered down so I can start to stack healing.

Best I can figure, raid buffed the Card is worth 22.5 mp5 to me, assuming the 70% and one proc every two minutes. That's the number I was really looking for. This tells me switching to the card is really worth it now, as I've got a good Innervate staff for when I need the extra spirit.

To Daedalix: You use Essence and a Prayerbook? You could probably do with just using the Prayerbook and the Bangle.

malthrin · 05/05/08, 5:04 PM

What's your hangup with using potions? Then you could start to stack +healing right now.

Kalaghan · 05/05/08, 5:04 PM

Originally Posted by Rossaroni

Best I can figure, raid buffed the Card is worth 22.5 mp5 to me, assuming the 70% and one proc every two minutes. That's the number I was really looking for. This tells me switching to the card is really worth it now, as I've got a good Innervate staff for when I need the extra spirit.

I think you/we figured it at 1626 mana per proc.

1626/120*5= 67.75mp5

I'm not sure where your 22.5mp5 is coming for? That's probably a close estimate of the bangle's worth, if that's what you're thinking? Also, I'd argue the card probably procs a little bit more often than once per 2 minutes. On average it will take 50 casts to proc, and most any druid should be casting more than once every 2.4 seconds.

lairpie · 05/05/08, 6:10 PM

Not using mana potions and optimizing your gear around using them is a simple statement that doing more healing is not worth a couple gold to you. While that may be a fairly common idea throughout the wow community, its not here.

ppilatee · 05/06/08, 1:10 AM

Originally Posted by malthrin

What's your hangup with using potions? Then you could start to stack +healing right now.

Some people play for the team, some people play for themselves.

Daedalix · 05/06/08, 2:10 AM

To Daedalix: You use Essence and a Prayerbook? You could probably do with just using the Prayerbook and the Bangle.

Why? And lose 84 healing? Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my post... I can't pour mana out fast enough and I barely have to chug pots now and again. Mana regen isn't an issue for anything we're working on right now (Hyjal and Vashj) I was considering the Bangle as a possible replacement for the LCPB in mana-intensive situations but I just don't see it being viable or worth the tradeoff. The strength of the new spirit regen makes this argument hardly worth the time for anyone nominally geared. The LCPB scales much better with haste gear and I'll prolly use it till we down Illidan.

Stacking +healing as the primary stat is the current paradigm.

Sylvannae · 05/06/08, 4:12 AM

I run 200mp5 while casting unbuffed, which is plenty for me. There is absolutely no purpose in getting more mana regeneration.

As proof: I stood in VoidReaver melee range and chaincast regrowth. I went OOM after 6 minutes, but that was without the Idol of the Crescent Goddess which is worth ~150mp5 in such a situation. With the idol, I could essentially chaincast regrowth for 8-10 minutes. Such spell usage is unrealistic, but it is one of the highest mana usage rotations a resto druid can have. If we can practically sustain it with only 200mp5 (unbuffed), there is no reason in considering huge sacrifices like Blue Dragon or Bangle.

Benita · 05/06/08, 9:25 AM

Please show us a WWS of that fight. Chain casting regrowth still means a 1350 per mp5 output, 1208 with the idol. Even with mana tide, a spriest and chain potting plus alchemist trinket and the darkmoon card blue you will have a hard time to keep that up for 6 minutes.

Did you downrank or do you mean casting when needed with chain casting?

• Playered · 05/06/08, 9:38 AM

Originally Posted by Sylvannae

I run 200mp5 while casting unbuffed, which is plenty for me. There is absolutely no purpose in getting more mana regeneration.

As proof: I stood in VoidReaver melee range and chaincast regrowth. I went OOM after 6 minutes, but that was without the Idol of the Crescent Goddess which is worth ~150mp5 in such a situation. With the idol, I could essentially chaincast regrowth for 8-10 minutes. Such spell usage is unrealistic, but it is one of the highest mana usage rotations a resto druid can have. If we can practically sustain it with only 200mp5 (unbuffed), there is no reason in considering huge sacrifices like Blue Dragon or Bangle.

I often use RG alot on Naj'entus and recently messed around in IF in a test of endurance against someone.
My gear is somewhat stronger and I could not sustain chain-casting max rank RG for any major length of time without SP/Totems/Potions/IV*.
Fully raid buffed (food/elixirs) and using potions, my own IV and potentially a Shaman or something and I could endure RG8 near indefinatly, but constant use of RG10 will break me down before 8mins im pretty certain (without a SP).

Your post is misleading, and when people are already being stupid saying things like "zomg druids imba mana never run out" etc, its just annoying to see a Druid say something which is acting towards this, because honestly you cant without abnormal additions.

Dynalisia · 05/06/08, 10:24 AM

I'm not really a big fan of sweeping statements like 'this and that level of regen is adequate' or how people can't manage to empty their mana bars. I think that as long as you got a good hold on your main responsibility, there is always something to sink your mana/GCD's into. I don't mean to say regen should be prioritized when selecting gear and such, but I definately don't believe in some kind of psuedo soft cap giving reason to not use manapots or anything else you can do to boost it.

malthrin · 05/06/08, 10:40 AM

I just find the entire discussion of mana regen mostly pointless. Shahraz aside, each time we get to a new progression fight, I find myself wishing for more throughput (+heal and haste), not more mana. I do agree that you can always find something to spend your mana on (161 DPS on Brutallus! Wow Web Stats), but that extra something is rarely as beneficial to your primary role in a progression fight as more throughput would be.

Dynalisia · 05/06/08, 10:45 AM

Well, I agree, although I usually tend to find myself wishing for both. I was mostly commenting on the frequently returning statements from people saying how they can't manage to spend their mana for the life of them and now recently the guy making an argument for not even using super mana's at all. In that case I just have to wonder if they are really contributing everything they can.

Rossaroni · 05/06/08, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Kalaghan

I think you/we figured it at 1626 mana per proc.

1626/120*5= 67.75mp5

I'm not sure where your 22.5mp5 is coming for? That's probably a close estimate of the bangle's worth, if that's what you're thinking? Also, I'd argue the card probably procs a little bit more often than once per 2 minutes. On average it will take 50 casts to proc, and most any druid should be casting more than once every 2.4 seconds.

I figured it differently, your way is the correct way. I tried calculating the difference in mp5 I'd get while unbuffed:

774 mp5 * 0.7 = 541 mp5 gained for 15 seconds, or 1623 mana, and yeah over two minutes that's 67.75 mp5. Looking at what I wrote down I'm not even sure what I did. ^_^ Thanks a ton for your help Kalaghan.

Originally Posted by lairpie

Not using mana potions and optimizing your gear around using them is a simple statement that doing more healing is not worth a couple gold to you. While that may be a fairly common idea throughout the wow community, its not here.

You can just quit with that attitude right now. If I have to pot, I pot. If I'm a minute into a fight and I see my mana regen isn't keeping up with my mana expenditures, I pot. My philosophy towards potting, though, is that if I'm having to use pots to keep my mana up, I'm doing something wrong. Either I'm geared wrong or I'm not spending my mana smartly. I feel like that potting is something you should save for "OSHI-" moments, not something you should work into your regular rotation of mana regen. Yeah, okay, if that's how some of you guys see it, fine. I'd rather not rely on potions to make my playstyle work. I aim to optimize healing and regen with gear and skills, and only then do I start throwing flasks, elixirs, stat food, and potions into it. Easier to push yourself when you know you've got headroom instead of knowing you have no room at all.

I guess to sum up my feelings:

Originally Posted by Dynalisia

I'm not really a big fan of sweeping statements like 'this and that level of regen is adequate' or how people can't manage to empty their mana bars. I think that as long as you got a good hold on your main responsibility, there is always something to sink your mana/GCD's into. I don't mean to say regen should be prioritized when selecting gear and such, but I definately don't believe in some kind of psuedo soft cap giving reason to not use manapots or anything else you can do to boost it.

If you're completely OOM at the end of a fight, haven't you done something wrong? You always wanna have room for something more than what you're doing for when Mr. Murphy shows up and healers start dying.

But hey, I'm just in TK/SSC, and those don't really count right? Yeah.

malthrin · 05/06/08, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Rossaroni

If you're completely OOM at the end of a fight, haven't you done something wrong? You always wanna have room for something more than what you're doing for when Mr. Murphy shows up and healers start dying..

Two things:
First, if Bad Things(TM) happen and you suddenly realize that you won't have enough mana because the fight is going long, you'll be much better off if you'd been potting on cooldown (netting 3k mana every 2 minutes) rather than a single pot when the shit hits the fan.
Second, Bad Things(TM) happen less often when you have higher +healing (due to not gearing/gemming regen) and more willingness to throw overheal at a situation due to the extra mp5 from potions and buffs.

If you want to limit yourself with self-imposed rules, nothing is stopping you. However, most people here are not playing under the same set of rules you are. Buffs are cheap, gold is easy, use them. There's no special medal or XBL achievement for downing bosses without using mana potions.

• Playered · 05/06/08, 11:51 AM

You can always drop Tree Form and keep up Insect Swarm (assuming no Boomkin) to further boost your utility at the cost of this huge amount of regen thats unable to beat down some people have

For eg on Brut my role is Burn healing but I also do Tank healing, and keeping up Insect Swarm where possible.
Im unable to be in Tree Form for this and near every GCD (beyond 30sec into the fight..) is used on -something-.
Given Elixirs, Food, Pots (Alchemist too), Drums, and my own IV - I still end up depleted on mana and hitting a rough spot around 30-90secs to the end of the fight, but im pushing myself to my limits beyond my assigned role (which has prio, other things will drop off if this requires more attention) to the limits of my gear just because else it will be wasted.

Hes actually a fight where I would want more regen (and a removal of haste) than what I currently have in an ideal world.

lairpie · 05/06/08, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Rossaroni

You can just quit with that attitude right now. If I have to pot, I pot. If I'm a minute into a fight and I see my mana regen isn't keeping up with my mana expenditures, I pot. My philosophy towards potting, though, is that if I'm having to use pots to keep my mana up, I'm doing something wrong. Either I'm geared wrong or I'm not spending my mana smartly. I feel like that potting is something you should save for "OSHI-" moments, not something you should work into your regular rotation of mana regen. Yeah, okay, if that's how some of you guys see it, fine. I'd rather not rely on potions to make my playstyle work. I aim to optimize healing and regen with gear and skills, and only then do I start throwing flasks, elixirs, stat food, and potions into it. Easier to push yourself when you know you've got headroom instead of knowing you have no room at all.

You're entitled to feel that way, but this is a forum for optimzing druid healing, which absolutely involves chain popping mana potions. I'm certainly not saying you can't post but its pretty silly to discus anything about healing optimization with a whole bunch of people that have completely planned their gearing choices around the assumption that they will be getting 100, or for some of us 140 mp5 from mana potions, and using draenic wisdom, elixir of healing power, and either brilliant mana oil or superior wizard oil for every fight where it could potentially matter.

You should really read a chunk of Mana regen - the last broken mechanic It gets a little off topic and goes on about how mana pots are one of the most broken game mechanics ever and how anyone trying to do their best is basically just chain hitting them because there is 0 reason not to. If you really want to discuss mana potion use, whether its strategic, whether its a fun game mechanic, that's a good place to do it. Here, the discussions all assume you're chain using mana pots, and gearing accordingly.

If you're completely OOM at the end of a fight, haven't you done something wrong? You always wanna have room for something more than what you're doing for when Mr. Murphy shows up and healers start dying.

By your own logic, shouldn't you be popping mana pots the whole time in case something like that happens?

Dynalisia · 05/06/08, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Rossaroni

If you're completely OOM at the end of a fight, haven't you done something wrong? You always wanna have room for something more than what you're doing for when Mr. Murphy shows up and healers start dying.

This is just polarizing the issue. I was objecting against people stating they could not spend their mana quick enough, which is a far cry from carelessly running yourself into the ground.

But hey, I'm just in TK/SSC, and those don't really count right? Yeah.

That's you putting labels on yourself, you won't see me say or think such a thing.

Rossaroni · 05/06/08, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by malthrin

Two things:
First, if Bad Things(TM) happen and you suddenly realize that you won't have enough mana because the fight is going long, you'll be much better off if you'd been potting on cooldown (netting 3k mana every 2 minutes) rather than a single pot when the shit hits the fan.

Originally Posted by Rossaroni

If I have to pot, I pot. If I'm a minute into a fight and I see my mana regen isn't keeping up with my mana expenditures, I pot.

Originally Posted by malthrin

Second, Bad Things(TM) happen less often when you have higher +healing (due to not gearing/gemming regen) and more willingness to throw overheal at a situation due to the extra mp5 from potions and buffs.

If you want to limit yourself with self-imposed rules, nothing is stopping you. However, most people here are not playing under the same set of rules you are. Buffs are cheap, gold is easy, use them. There's no special medal or XBL achievement for downing bosses without using mana potions.

My experience has shown me that when I gear for more +healing, I tend to run out of mana during the long fights, and when all I can do is throw lifeblooms around, I'm no longer useful. I'd rather have the regen to cast at the rate I normally cast at, and then once I've reached that plateau I'll start worrying about +healing more. I'm not "most people" here, I'm Rossaroni. This groupthink thing is killing me.