Yep, but all it takes is 1 spell haste rating, which most of us are quite far beyond.

Overwriting a rejuv is not like overwriting a DOT. That healing is not automatically lost, it is only lost if the target isn't topped off when the last rejuv tick would've occured. There are plenty of occurences where you can do it with 0 loss to healing. I'm not saying I advocate it on a regular basis, but that's a misleading statement.

Regarding the fight mechanics argument, other situations where it's useful (although less crucial than with a silence) to overwrite a rejuv:
If you're about to be killed by Shadow of Death on Gorefiend or Doom on Azgalor.
If you're about to go through a portal on Kalecgos.
If you're about to run out of range, or get airburst, on Archimonde. Also before a fear on Archimonde.
If you're running out of tank range due to parasites on Illidan.
If AoE effects force you to run out of range of a tank on Council.

And just about any fight where that last tank isn't crucial but there's about to be intense raid damage you want to focus on. Or if you are expecting big burst damage and want to have your swiftmend fodder available (eg. if Illidan is about to enrage, it's nice to have a rejuv up for the duration so you can swiftmend if needed at any point).

I might have stretched it a bit with the examples, and maybe these specific circumstances don't justify a gear shift to avoid that proc. But I definitely think you oversimplify the situation when you assume 0 haste, guaranteed potential HPS = HPS, and claim there are only 2 fights in the game where you'd want to overwrite the rejuv. It's not that clear-cut.

Its not like anyone's talking about using some really terrible item over a really good item that happens to interfere with over-writing rejuvs. By all means, the SSO neck and Hyjal rings are great if you don't have a good alternative, but random procs for +healing goes against the entire model of druid healing consistency. They're certainly not a bad thing most of the time, but it doesn't take too much in the way of additional static +healing or any other stat for that matter to make an item better than a similar item with a +healing proc. The fairly common examples being the za haste neck vs sso neck and BBoK vs Hyjal ring. It comes down to which scenario is more likely: +healing proc happens to proc at really good time, enabling you to save the tank (or someone) with that extra however much +healing or the extra haste keeps you from dropping a lifebloom stack where you would have without the haste. Most people think its always their heals that save everyone and most think they almost never let their lifeblooms drop, but actually looking at wws and combat logs, and i think most people would find their lifebloom stacks drop more often than an extra 200 healing would really have made the difference and would happen to have been procced at that time.

I have however considered trying to setup a mod specifically designed to work like caster weapon swap works with spell surge, but attempting to maximize +healing proc uptime. I think with 2 eotm like trinkets, hyjal ring proc, sso neck proc, and a mod that used your trinekts at just the right times you could maintain some pretty solid proc/use uptime. A key would be getting the ring and neck hidden CDs separated before the fight by proccing one right before the fight, then equipping the other one right before pulling.

If you actually read the post I was responding to, he states in a 0 haste situation., and even in this if you DONT have enough haste to establish a 5 gcd rotation, overriding lifeblooms/rejuvenations is bad practice.

Let's say I have 1.41 GCD due to haste.
A normal 4 gcd rotations is now reduced from 6 seconds to 5.64 seconds.

Normally you would refresh lifebloom between 6-7 seconds left on it, this lets you maxmise the healing it does (also nicely coincides with the 1.5 second gcd rotation). You only clip one lifebloom tick (out of a possible 7 you have 6).

If you now cast between 5-6 seconds time left, now you effectively "lost" one lifebloom tick per every lifebloom refresh. (5 ticks out of 7). You've roughly lost 17% effective healing on your lifebloom per cast, in return you can cast about 10% "faster", but realistically you're maintaing the exact same rotation with the exact same hot uptime because your still rotating 4 casts in a 4 set rotation. So your spending more mana for more or less the same amount of healing (highly possibly less), this is not to say haste is uselss though.

Minor amounts of haste will allows you to properly slot in a regrowth into a 4 cycle rotation, haste might let you get that clutch swiftmend earlier, but in the context of maintaining a proper rotation your better off 90% of the time to NOT cast as soon as possible (refreshing lifebloom only between 6-7 seconds, refreshing rejuv when it falls off).

There are always exceptions, there are situations where you will want to refresh rejuv consistently. Gear is interchangeable. In alot of situations where you want to throw a rejuv, in alot of situations you mention I would prefer to make sure lifebloom is refreshed rather than cast rejuv.

Neither you or I can predict whether that tick heals, but it is a loss of POTENTIAL healing. Isn't it better to have that tick be there than not?

But argument for breaking the Rule of not clipping your HoTs was the potential loss of 3 ticks (or better: longer uptime to Swiftmend) of a not refreshed Reju, due to Range/Silence/whatever Reasons. To me it seems 4 ticks > 1 under such circumstances..
From my (noobish) experience, such circumstances are at single-Tank fights mostly, like Gruul Silence or Magtheridon Quake

No one questions that it is usually a bad thing and under some circumsstances even impossible to do.

You don't lose ticks of lifebloom by casting it early, thus there is no loss of effective healing of lifebloom.
If I refresh it every 2 seconds or every 6.5 seconds it will still do the same amount of healing.

Casting lifebloom early does waste mana and time that you could be doing something else, so it might lower YOUR effective healing, but not the effective healing of lifebloom.

Actually, I've been wondering about this. Looking at death logs, it seems there are instances where lifebloom ticks are seperated by notably more than 1 second (but always under 2 seconds). Suppose a lifebloom stack is refreshed with 1.5 seconds remaining. I would be surprised if you then got ticks at 6.5/5.5/4.5/3.5/2.5/1.5 by letting it run it's course. More likely the first tick still occurs at 6s remaining. This would mean that ideally you should refresh your Lifeblooms immediately after 6 seconds, because any time beyond that 6s mark will represent an additional delay till the next tick.

Can anyone confirm or deny?

Yeah, that's the way pretty much every hot and dot works other than lacerate which somehow inexplicably continues ticking regardless of when you refresh it.

Then I suppose that would make a 5-cast cycle even less appealing. You're losing a bit of +healing (probably) to get the necessary haste, but even once you have the necessary haste, the cycle takes much closer to 7 seconds than a 4-cast cycle. Suppose it's on average a 0.5second difference. Then you're losing 0.5sx4 = 2 ticks worth of healing every cycle on your initial 4 targets, in order to gain 6 on a fifth target. So really you're only gaining around 4 extra LB ticks by adding a 5th tank, not 6. And I'd say a 0.5second difference is a conservative estimate.

By the same token, small amounts of haste which bring you closer to a spot-on 6 second cycle could be considered more valuable since you are actually producing more ticks over the course of a fight.

In my experience, high amounts of haste, e.g. the amounts you generally have to sacrifice other stats for in order to reach, only really star in situations where you spend quite some time doing things that have nothing to do with a rotation, which usually means raidhealing of some kind. And honestly, this pretty much goes for every encounter I've done in Sunwell with the exception of Brutallus, so in that zone I really like running around with decent amount of haste.

I guess I should actually test it, do you know of any empirical evidence in favor of this view of LB? The only testing I have done was standing in If at half health and saying "yep, looks like 1 sec per tick regardless of how I cast". Ultra scientific, I know!

If I were to make a logical argument in favor of the "lifebloom is like lacerate" school of thought, I would say that the workings of the pre-nerf lifebloom strongly suggest the "You are only refreshing the timer on an existing HoT, thus you get ticks every 1 sec" theory verses the "It is like every other HoT, meaning casting a new LB erases the old one." Wouldn't the second implementation have meant losing the extra +healing from trinkets on the first refresh without the +healing (like all other HoTs in the game)?

Maybe they changed it from a lacerate-like HoT to a regular HoT in the process of the nerf.

I just did some testing on this and it looks like refreshing lifebloom does not reset the timer in any way, it continues to tick every second (which supports malthrin's theory).

I rolled lifebloom three separate times on a warlock over about 4 minutes, and had him continuously life tap and visually confirmed that his health never reached full (so it should have ticked every time it could). The first time I switched between spamming lifebloom and refreshing near the end, the second time I spammed it always (except in the last 7 seconds) and the third time I refreshed it somewhere near the end, varying it slightly from a split second to 1.5 seconds or so. I took a combat log and ran a program on it to determine the length of time the aura was up (t), number of ticks (n), number of casts (c), and min/max time between ticks (d_min/d_max). Results are:

The program and log are attached if anyone wants to inspect them for confirmation.

Hmm... I know lacerate certainly seems to agree with malthrin's theory, but I'd concluded lifebloom didn't from seeing combat log entries where it shifted its tick time a bit, but that could also be client side lag. The major problem in determining anything is that any amount of latency fluctuation makes a big deal when we're counting fractions of a second. I'll have to play around with this a bit.

It would seem Giansm's test confirms that the reset timer doesn't apply. Given a sufficiently large sample, if the timer did 'reset' with the cast, he should've lost at least 1 tick over that length of time (particularly in the second example). Since he didn't lose any ticks on the tests (t rounded down = n), it seems fairly conclusive to me that the timer is not reset upon refresh.

I've always assumed Lifebloom behaved like other hots, due to my own observation of lifebloom's 7th tick + the "bloom" always coinciding.

Looking at Giansm's testing, I'm definately sure I was wrong then (or something has changed). Spamming lifebloom every gcd would give you a very significant delay of 0.5 seconds per tick and having no missed ticks in any of his tests gives a very strong impression that the lb timer does not reset in any form.

I guess you learn something new every day.

just switched over to my druid as my main, and had a question based on some info our other resto druid was telling me last night. He was saying that on teir 6 lvl content that we should be stacking +heal gear and only worry about having 200mp5 while casting. He didn't seem to be worried about what amount of spirit we should have to go along with it. As far as content we have cleared MH and are working on the council. Anythoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated as I don't wanna waste epic gems on bad advice

I was reading above and actually noticed something that I've been wondering about on my druid. He hit 70 a couple weeks ago now and I am trying to gear him up as best I can on my own to maybe take the place of my hunter as my main for our 25 mans. I grabbed the SSO neck and have been noticing the proc happening at really inopportune times. I normally raid heal and try to just keep a rejuv up on the tank/tanks but I hate not being able to refresh at certain points. Should I drop the neck and go back to my Netherspite necklace?

Also the main reason I came here today. I am basically gearing up to fill the tank group resto druid spot. I am stacking as much +spi as possible and going for much more mana regen than I am +heal. I also grabbed the Idol that boosts my tree of life buff. I don't believe any other druids that raid with us have really bothered with spell haste. Should I try and stack as much as possible if I plan to be a raid healer? Or am I better suited looking for other stats?

Any advise is appreciated

There are a couple of things in your post that don't necessarily have to go together. For one, if you are stacking Spirit because you want to dedicate yourself to aura provision, stacking any other mana regen is likely going to be superfluous. If this role is really going to be your main occupation, I would probably go for Purified purples in both your blue and red gem slots at your current your gear level.

Also, aura provision and haste don't usually go together, because most pre-Sunwell haste items are straight Heal/Haste items and do very little in terms of spirit (or mp5 for that matter). Not to mention that as the aura provider you will likely be put on focused tank healing most of the time and haste is really a stat that finds its main use in hybrid tank/raid healing or straight raidhealing. Aside from that, I don't find haste especially useful outside sunwell plateau and its massive-raid-damage encounters - barring any kind of laid back trash or dungeon healing I guess :>

There is no druid role where stacking spirit or mp5 is good. Don't ignore it, figure out on each piece how much the spirit is boosting your aura by and figure out how much mana you need, but don't ever use a pure spirit or mp5 gem, and only in slots with +heal bonus should you probably use purified. If you routinely find yourself oom, using the int/mana proc meta rather than the +heal one is one of the best ways to pick up more mana. If you're not very sure you need haste, you don't.

Our current healing composition for Brut includes two resto druids, two holy paladins, one holy priest, and three resto shaman. The paladins, priest, and one of the shaman are on Main Tank duty. Two of the resto shaman are handling the raid. The other Resto druid and I are charged with maintaining lifebloom on the tank(s) but giving priority to burn victims. So far this has not been effective, but out of every pairing we've tried we've had the most success (or least amount of failure, depending on how you look at it) by assigning two resto druids to deal with burn. Nevertheless, we are still losing people. I am confident that it is not an issue of execution, but rather strategy. Both of us have full stacks of HoTs on burn victims, we've established a swiftmend rotation, throwing extra regrowths, ect. I feel like we are doing all that we can do, and it is simply not enough. My raid leader and I have been discussing whether or not it would be beneficial for one of us to either stack haste or spec into dreamstate. I realize that both of these options have been discussed in relation to performance from an individual perspective, but how do they stack up in regard to healing synergy when paired with a ToL druid? Would two ToL druids complement each other better than a ToL and Dreamstate combination?

If you have had success on dealing with burn victims using two ToL's, I'd like to hear your strategy, and please be as specific as possible. If you think assigning two ToL's to burn healing is completely asinine and beyond foolish, please post what comp you have had success with, and how those two classes work together. Any advice is appreciated.

Note: I understand that I am not in optimal gear. Regardless, I hit 2.3k healing when raidbuffed, and mana has not been an issue. Please keep suggestions relevant to composition and ToL/ Dreamstate dynamics. Thank you.

We generally run 2 resto shamans, 2 holy priests, 2 holy paladins, 1 ToL druid for burn healing, with the ToL druid on burns with MT HoT support when burns permit. One holy priest swings over to help with the last 10 seconds or so on burns, or earlier if we have people coming over with 2 or 3 stacks of meteor slash. We have also used a holy paladin in this role when we only have 1 holy priests, due to priotizing having Inspiration on the tank over another paladin.

A few weeks ago we were forced to do the fight with two ToL druids (the other having never done the fight before) due to having no holy priests online (the other priest slot was filled with another holy paladin).

Anyway, preface aside, we had little trouble. A three stack of Lifebloom from a single druid will handle a burn victim with no meteor slashes until late in the slash (under 20 seconds left). For the very end of burns, we simply spammed the heck out of the target using regrowth and swiftmends and letting Lifeblooms expire at 1-3 seconds left, while I kept the lifebloom up on burn targets 2/3, who by then would be at ~20 and ~40 seconds. Note that if need be, you can generally just ignore the third burn target for those last few seconds unless they are coming over with 2-3 stacks of meteor slash and use the time to spam more on the expiring burn. Every class except hunters and elemental shamans has some way of helping you out as well, have them make us of it. We certainly weren't using the most efficient approach, but we had no mana troubles, and it wasn't something we expected to have to do multiple weeks.

As for whether a Dreamstate druid would be better, my personal numbers suggest a tentative 'yes', with the caviate that it would possibly be better to just have the other druid do something different (MT heal) and bring a different healer over. HT spam with 2400 healing is around 2050 HPS for a dreamstate druid, while regrowth spam for a ToL druid with the same +healing and Imp Regrowth is around 1425 HPS, assuming no haste for either. There's a difference in the accompanying Rejuv/LB healing favoring the resto druid, but that wouldn't nearly make up the difference.

I suggest using a tree and a direct healer for burn healing. The direct healer's job is solely to cover the person in the final 20 seconds of their burn, backed up by hots and Swiftmend/Regrowth. A tree has a much harder time ramping up to the ~2k hp/s (3200 minus hots) than any other healing class. A Paladin is probably ideal, but I usually pair up with a Resto Shaman due to our Paladin shortage. We put our other 1-2 trees on MT healing.