Raiding as a Tree - Page 59

Sheshonk · 08/30/08, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Shonassir

Pardon me, i've been doing alot of research on the forums here and other websites. It has come to my attention that most people seem to be in disagreement over whether ToL aura actually STACKS or that it just shows up as 2 buffs. Can anyone confirm it does or doesn't? Preferably with numbers and proof but testing works too. I personally believe it does not, but my guild thinks otherwise. Discuss !

P.S. Thanks for feedback!

They do stack.

I'm going to be lazy and share with you all my guild's first Brut kill. Not only that, but I'll reverse engineer the values for you.

This video shows a triple stack lifebloom with 2 ToL Auras and 0 ToL auras. Timeline is as follows...

0:00 = Lolcat
0:22 = Tank Rokasu has tribloom ticking for 1,119
0:49 = Resto Druid Tape gets burn and has tribloom ticking for 1,059
1:22 = Shadow Priest Badzack gets burn and has tribllom ticking for 932
6:35 = Killing Blow on Brutallus, God I'm awesome

As you can see in the video, there are three different and distinct triple stack lifebloom values.
1 Tank with Pair of ToL Auras and Amp Magic
2 Resto Druid with Pair of ToL Auras
3 Shadow Priest with 0 ToL Auras

So, the important value is Resto Druid vs Shadow Priest triblooms.

Difference = 1,059 - 932
Difference = 127

Now figure out the full difference, not just a single tick

Full HoT Difference = 127 * 6 ticks
Full HoT Difference = 762

Factor in +Heal Coefficient of Triple Stack Lifebloom. This value is 202% by the way.

ToL Aura Benefit = 762 / 2.02
ToL Aura Benefit = 377

Spirit Required = (377 - 44 idol) * 4
Spirit Required = 1,332

This is an impossible value to reach with a single tree druid, even with [Idol of the Raven Goddess]. However, lets say 2 druids were around using idols (which we were)...

Spirit Required = (377 - (44 idol * 2)) / 2) * 4
Spirit Required = 578

So, as you can see through video evidance and napkin math, tree auras do stack. I believe my numbers are off somewhat, but I'd have to be WAY off to show that ToL auras do not stack (as Shonassir proposed).

Montegos · 09/15/08, 1:57 AM

I've got a question considering weapons. Yesterday I got [Staff of Dark Mending] in ZA. I am not sure though how to socket it and if it is comparable with my current combo, [Gavel of Naaru Blessings] + [Voodoo Shaker]. What makes me thinking about taking the staff is 16 mp5 but Im not 100 % sure. I will keep the staff anyway if I would need more mp5 sometime.

Norfair · 09/15/08, 3:28 AM

Originally Posted by Montegos

I've got a question considering weapons. Yesterday I got [Staff of Dark Mending] in ZA. I am not sure though how to socket it and if it is comparable with my current combo, [Gavel of Naaru Blessings] + [Voodoo Shaker]. What makes me thinking about taking the staff is 16 mp5 but Im not 100 % sure. I will keep the staff anyway if I would need more mp5 sometime.

If you have a decent amount of intellect and are raid buffed, half of the spirit is about equal to the mp5. So the 25 spirit on that offhand is about 12 mp5. If you'd socket the staff with 3x 22 healing gems you would end up with 473 +healing versus 519 +healing from the 1h + offhand combo. It's obvious that the 46 +healing difference vastly outweighs the additional 4 mp5 you get from the staff. It's not even worth an inventory slot.

Amaren · 09/18/08, 8:42 PM

What honestly is the best way to gem a ToL druid? I have all t6 gear and currently stack +22 healing as I have no mana issues even on intense fights. Is it better to stay with the +22 healing gems, or go a mix of +11 healing / 2mp5 and +11 healing / +5 int?

Bahkauv · 09/19/08, 12:58 AM

Why would you want to gem something you don´t need?

As long as you have enough mana/regeneration, simply gem +22 heal, except for good socket boni like the T6-Helmet oder Life-step Belt. And for those, think about 11 healing / 5 Spirit instead of the 2 gems you mentioned.

Morriel · 10/21/08, 11:50 PM

With WOTLK just around the corner and with all of the Tree changes so far and the introduction of potion sickness.

What do you guys think about stacking Spirit vs Mp5, both for gear and gems for WOTLK?

Nitz · 10/22/08, 2:39 AM

With the nerf to PvE encounters, I don't think spirit stacking is worth it. At least not until Sunwell (which I haven't done).

halmmar · 10/22/08, 5:16 AM

I tried felmyst as resto with my 2.4 gear and must say it's pretty bad now (I use a ton of haste, which isn't really needed). Wild Growth costs a lot of mana, so I'd say int or spirit would be decent to stack (especially if you heal sunwell in kara gear - you can still beat a T6 shaman raid healing with the changes, as long as your mana holds up).

grutak · 10/22/08, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Morriel

With WOTLK just around the corner and with all of the Tree changes so far and the introduction of potion sickness.

What do you guys think about stacking Spirit vs Mp5, both for gear and gems for WOTLK?

With out doing any math(I'm not a mathematically inclined person), spirit will still be greater than mp5, especially since Imp ToL gives 15% spirit -> spellpower. I'm more concerned with how good int becomes now.

I was in the beta, but I did not play much, and did no raiding at 80, so I cannot comment on how mana regen will be. However, the old "stack regen till you don't run out of mana, and then stack spellpower" will still hold true. My current plan is to get a 2nd set of gear, so I can gem/enchant the first set for pure spellpower, and the second set for regen(healing/spirit and healing/int gems, along with any new type of gems that fit into this).

Currently at 70, I have zero mana problems. I did though Azgalor in Hyjal last night, and only used 2 potions, 1 mana drum and 0 innervates for the whole night. I believe I logged out in my normal gear. But if not, I was near 355 mp5 fully buffed(flask of chromatic wonder, fish sticks, and all standard buffs), and we only had 1 replenishment in the raid. Wild growth was near 40% of healing done, and I was top of the meter, so I wasn't phoning it in.

However, with the nurf to raids, hyjal was retardedly easy(not that it was terribly hard to start with). Wish I could get a chance to raid some harder stuff and see how I stack up with the higher up raiders.

And so far, I really am enjoying WG.

Meiriel · 10/22/08, 11:18 AM

Apologies if this question has been answered before, as a priest I did not follow your naturefreak-threat until now

Do you think two Restro-Druids will be able to heal 10-man-instances in Wrath?
I know you guys as excellent spikehealers and generally able to keep up an unholy amount of very nice HoTs. But I noticed you were always a bit lacking in terms of raw throughput. If HoTs were not enough to keep the target alive you had to shift out of treeform and cast Healing Touch which seemed to be devastating to your mana pool. I noticed some changes in patchnotes - both beta and live - that seemed to adress this issue, but it would be really nice if someone who is actually experiencing those changes could tell me.
This question aims not only at two druids healing Naxx, but also every other 10-man-instance Blizzard might throw at them in Wrath.

giansm · 10/22/08, 11:43 AM

Druids have a larger toolbox in WLK than we had in TBC, so there's nothing in my view that fundamentally stops us from two-healing an instance that is designed for two healers. For tank healing in particular we get HT in tree form, Nourish, the Swiftmend glyph, and the Regrowth glyph. That being said, with healing there is strength in diversity so it will probably be best to have two different classes, both for variety of healing spells and variety of buffs.

Lord BEEF · 10/22/08, 12:04 PM

For mana, I believe intellect is the best overall stat since it provides max mana, regeneration to spirit, and regeneration from replenishment.

That said, I still prefer spirit since it also gives spellpower

Morriel · 10/22/08, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by Lord BEEF

.... I still prefer spirit since it also gives spellpower

Im leaning more towards Spirit for the same reason.

Originally Posted by giansm

For tank healing in particular we get HT in tree form, Nourish, the Swiftmend glyph, and the Regrowth glyph.

What glyph's is everybody thinking of using in WOTLK?

I am thinking going:

Major = 1 + 2 + 3 (im torn, 4 or 5 are very nice as well)
Minor = 1 + 2 and a random 3rd.

[MAJOR GLYPHS]

[1] Glyph of Regrowth (Req. lvl. 15) - Increases the healing of your Regrowth spell by 20% if your Regrowth effect is still active on the target.
[2] Glyph of Rejuvenation (Req. lvl. 15) - While your rejuvenation targets are below 50% health, you will heal them for an additional 50% health.
[3] Glyph of Swiftmend (Req. lvl. 40) - Your Swiftmend ability no longer consumes a Rejuvenation or Regrowth effect from the target.
[4] Glyph of Innervate (Req. lvl. 40) - Your innervate ability now has an additional 20% strength mana regeneration effect on you, in addition to the effect on your primary target.
[5] Glyph of Lifebloom (Req. lvl. 64) - Increases the duration of Lifebloom by 1 sec.
[6] Glyph of Rebirth (Req. lvl. 20) - Increases the amount of health on a character brought back to life via Rebirth by 100%.

[MINOR GLYPHS]

[1] Glyph of the Wild (Req. lvl. 15) - Mana cost of your Mark of the Wild and Gift of the Wild spells reduced by 50%.
[2] Glyph of Unburdened Rebirth (Req. lvl. 20) - Your Rebirth spell no longer requires a reagent.

Xavias · 10/22/08, 10:46 PM

For raiding I'd ditch the Glyph of Rejuv. Its not very often that you will get effective healing ticks on a target that is under 50% HP, due to other healing classes.

I'd probably go 1, 3, 4.

Norfair · 10/23/08, 4:23 AM

Originally Posted by Lord BEEF

For mana, I believe intellect is the best overall stat since it provides max mana, regeneration to spirit, and regeneration from replenishment.

That said, I still prefer spirit since it also gives spellpower

I wasn't so sure about that, so I made some calculations. I'm going with the level 80 formula here, which is:

Mana Regen (SPI, INT, LEVEL) = (0.001+SPI*0.007125 *(INT^0.5))*5

As spirit and intellect are always roughly the same, I'll go and make 3 calculations: one with 800 spirit and 800 int, one with 1000 spirit and 1000 int, and one with 1200 spirit and 1200 int. All values in the FSR with Intensity active, calculated in Living Spirit and Kings (10 extra spirit is therefore 10*1.15*1.1 spirit and 10 int is 10*1.1 int).

800 spirit / 800 int:
10 extra spirit will give you: 3.83 mp5
10 extra int will give you: 1.66 mp5

1000 spirit / 1000 int:
10 extra spirit will give you: 4.27 mp5
10 extra int wil give you: 1.85 mp5

1200 spirit / 1200 int:
10 extra spirit you: 4.68 mp5
10 extra int will give you: 2.03 mp5

As you can see (and what is already inherent in the formula), spirit scales better but also gives you more per point.

However, like LordBEEF says, this is just one of the benefits. Next to increasing your mana regen, intellect will also give you extra mana from replenishment. I'm not 100% sure how it works, but according to WoWWiki it gives 0.25% mana every second for 15 seconds. The buff does not stack, so at best if you can keep the buff always up, it will give you 1.25% of your mana back every 5 seconds. 10 intellect will give you 165 mana with improved Kings. 1.25% of 165 mana is 2.0625 mp5. In addition, 165 extra mana in a "typical" 7 minute fight will give you close to an extra 2 mp5, so let's say 4 extra mp5 from these 2 things.

In total, at 1200 spirit and 1200 intellect, 10 extra spirit on your gear will give you 4.68 mp5 while 10 extra int will give you 6.03 mp5. The difference is pretty major. However, this case is 100% in advantage of intellect. If you have less than 31% uptime on Replenishment, spirit becomes better. If you spent more than 20% of the time out of the FSR, spirit becomes better. If the fight takes longer than 23 minutes, spirit becomes better. Many of these values seem unlikely to happen, but a combination of these factors can turn the favor to spirit quite fast.

This is also neglecting the spellpower you get from spirit and the crit you get from int, although I think nobody would disagree that the spellpower from spirit is a lot more valuable since it scales so much better (the amount of crit you get from int is very low and spellpower is more useful for druids anyway). I don't think I'll see myself "focusing" on intellect in any way, although it has become definitely more valuable than in TBC.

Jalhar · 10/23/08, 8:02 AM

Originally Posted by Xavias

For raiding I'd ditch the Glyph of Rejuv. Its not very often that you will get effective healing ticks on a target that is under 50% HP, due to other healing classes.

Same thing here, I find myself not using rejuv that much, and usually it ticks on players above 50% anyway, because of the other heaelers. [2] is more a pvp glyph imho.

I would go with 1 3 4 or 1 3 5, depending on the new use of lifebloom and the need of mana in wotlk content. More considering lifebloom atm, I prefer to have more flexibility in my rotation and find mana elsewhere.

Btw, glyph of innervate has been changed (thanks god, strength, srsly...), here is the new one :

Use: Your Innervate spell now grants you full mana regeneration while casting for 20 sec, in addition to the effect on the primary target. Innervate's effect is instead increased by 20% if you are the primary target.

Olddrippy · 10/23/08, 10:43 AM

I found something slightly interesting with the Glyph of Rejuv.

If my target is below 50% health and I have a Rejuv on them, the Glyph of Rejuv heal counts as a "direct heal", so the heal from the mace off Illidan kicks in as well.

So now the the mace off Illidan works for everything but Wild Growth and the HoT ticks of Lifebloom. I'll have to see if the final bloom counts as our direct heal now that it is credited to us.

With SWP being so easy now I imagine a lot of people will go for KJ weapons like the staff, but kind of a cool thing if you have the crystal spire.

Rhaegal · 10/23/08, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Meiriel

Do you think two Restro-Druids will be able to heal 10-man-instances in Wrath?

I'd answer that with a qualified "yes". However, just because they can doesn't mean they necessarily should. Now that we have a (very fun) AoE heal and we will have a quick direct heal at 80, we're in pretty good shape for flexibility. If you did want to run 10-mans with dual resto druids, you'd want them to coordinate glyphing, etc., though. For example, you don't want both of them with the HT glyph so the emergency massive NS+HT is available, but without another healing class present, you'd probably want one of them to have it for a Flash Heal equivalent, as glyphed and talented HT does a better job of this than Nourish.

You're pretty much guaranteed better synergy if you bring two different kinds of healers, though. You'd have no damage prevention (PW:S, Hand of Protection) or direct AoE heals (CoH, Chain Heal). It's harder (in my experience, anyway) for a bored resto druid to add to raid damage with balance spells than it is for a holy priest or resto shaman to smite/LB, due to the opportunity cost of dropping ToL (admittedly not a major concern when choosing healers).

Anyway, for Glyphs, I'll be going with Regrowth, Swiftmend, and Lifebloom unless proven otherwise. The Innervate glyph is very dependent on our mana situation at 80, which is still somewhat unknown. If we're only a little less mana efficient at 80 than we were at 70, I don't think it'll be worth a glyph slot for me, and I'd rather have the extra second to fool around with other spells between refreshing Lifebloom on the tank(s). Ten second Lifebloom just makes me happy. I'm currently using the Rejuv glyph, but I have no desire to keep it, and will probably be switching it out for a feral glyph until WotLK hits. It really hasn't proven useful, for reasons stated above.

branwynllyr · 10/23/08, 8:42 PM

I'm currently using the glyph of HT and I can only imagine that I will still want it at lvl 80. My HT is now just 0.97 sec with a meager 47 haste. Since my HT is now quicker than priest or pally flash heals I can feel like I'm making a difference in the raid by saving the tank and others with quick burst heals that my HoTs could not have done before.
In two BT raid nights, here is how my HT glyph has worked out:
1st. I specced into the balance tree for the 9 second lifebloom, 15 sec rejuv, etc. and didn't bother with Wildgrowth. I'm pretty sure that the extra tics affect swiftmend (now my biggest heal). The extra tics gave me all sorts of time to cast my HTs, regrowths and rejuvs around rolling lifeblooms on tanks, and this was all amazingly fun to coordinate. My worry about having enough mana for spammed HTs is gone, I only used 1 mana pot the entire night.
2nd, I tried Wildgrowth and lost the extra tics. A fellow druid started spamming WG and pulling ahead on the meters, so then I started spamming it and caught up, I couldn't keep up with him if I used my other spells. He and I were about 5% ahead of the rest of the healers at the end of the night. Spamming WG takes no gray matter and didn't feel like I'd kept anyone alive, just topped off. If WG spamming is going to be the way to be top healer, then maybe the HT glyph will not get used so much or any other spell, for that matter. = /
I also have the glyph of rejuv because it is available to me, but I will probably replace it when I can. The 2nd raid night it ticked only 8 times for about 1125ish each.

tylanthea · 10/28/08, 12:42 AM

Confusion regarding 3.x stats..

In order to convert our current "spellpower/healing" into the old model of "healing", is it correct to assume:

Old Healing = (New Healing - New Spellpower) + Spellpower / 0.53 ?
or
Old Healing = (New Healing + New Spellpower) ?

giansm · 10/28/08, 12:46 AM

It's spellpower * 1.88. Bonus healing and bonus damage have been merged into one stat so there's no sense in thinking about them separately anymore. And anyway, it's best to get away from thinking about "old healing" since it's never coming back.

tylanthea · 10/28/08, 2:27 AM

Originally Posted by giansm

It's spellpower * 1.88. Bonus healing and bonus damage have been merged into one stat so there's no sense in thinking about them separately anymore. And anyway, it's best to get away from thinking about "old healing" since it's never coming back.

My confusion arises from the fact that in Tree Form, our spellpower and healingpower has different values (Bonuses from imp ToL, etc), which does not conform with the spellpower * 1.88 (spellpower / 0.53) formula.

Could someone shed some light on this?

Giansm: Do I just do healpower * 1.88 then? This can't be right?

Norfair · 10/28/08, 4:51 AM

Originally Posted by tylanthea

My confusion arises from the fact that in Tree Form, our spellpower and healingpower has different values (Bonuses from imp ToL, etc), which does not conform with the spellpower * 1.88 (spellpower / 0.53) formula.

Could someone shed some light on this?

Giansm: Do I just do healpower * 1.88 then? This can't be right?

Current spellpower * 1.88 = old +healing

However, they still track healing power and spellpower independently, probably because they want to be able to give buffs to healing only in some situations. This applies to the ToL buff as well (only buffs healing power, not spellpower), although in this case it wouldn't have really mattered much because you can't dps in ToL. I think Thorns now scales with spellpower, so this would be an example of a spell not benefitting from the extra healing power you gain in ToL.

Lorrianne · 10/28/08, 8:22 AM

Before Patch 3.0.2 was introduced and perhaps somwhere in this forum, there was talk about "Dreamstate Healers" healers who relied on healing touch as their main heal, in essence a Slow casting Flash healer. At the time i thought it was a ridiculous spec for raiding, given the fact that COH priests and even Paladins (who are the new stars of healing) would simply beat you to it.

Anyways, Healing Touch Glyph

After patch 3.0.2, after seeing Wildgrowths ineffectiveness other than premptively casting it on warstomped/soulcharged raids or when 5 melee/tanks are taking constant raid damage and the HoT of Lifebloom being nerfed and its Mana cost increased, i decided to try this Glyph in raids for the purpose of super fast trash mob healing and on bosses that focus their damage on single targets.

Currently, if your interest (and shame on you) is to top the overall healing (and overhealing) chart or try to atleast, then this is the glyph for you. Yes HoTs will always have their uses especially in the two scenarios i described above, and when tanks are taking a bit of a pummeling, but if you are bored of the tiresome lifebloom spam then i suggest you grab this Glyph and the wildgrowth talent, resocket all your gems to pure spirit gems and watch yourself go oom.

I have the full 5 talents in Naturalist, tranquil Spirit, and empowered touch (Still a tree too) and i've gone for 10 points in Balance which include Moonglow, and Natures Majesty. I have around 33 Haste rating and i have to say i am constantly loving it.

And yes, I go OOM. Alot! Thank goodness for Innervate, and since i use it when i am practically oom, i effectively have over x2 my mana pool (damn the mana pot cooldown)

The emphasis on the build is to use Healing touch as your main healing spell. In raids of 25, Wildgrowth will perhaps do about 10-20% of your healing, depending on who you take, be it CoH specced priests or Shamans.

However put it this way, and this is by no means a measure of skill (since this resto druid has saved us on a number of occassions when we recieve a soulcharge from Archimonde). We currently use two resto druids in our raid setup, with CoH priests, shammies etc.

In the healing charts, the person at the bottom of overall healing with about 4-5% of the healing raids, is our Wildgrowth spammer. I have managed to reach the number 1 spot on a number of occassions ( but not on all boss fights since Paladins rule, or they should and if they don't, you better ask them why not).

Its a wonderful change at the very least, but it might not be to everyones liking due to the Mana issues i've talked about.

Gift of the Earthmother, one of the deep restoration talents, use to give your hots the ability to replenish some of your mana provided you cast a spell like healing touch on them. This has been removed ( Or maybe i am imagining it since i am in a dreamstate). However it would be most welcome if they brought the aspect of this talent back, since i think it would sort out the oom situation nicely. (and yes i know about Replenish, and in short, its poor).

Any response from your fine well educated selves would be most welcome.

Norfair · 10/28/08, 8:43 AM

Originally Posted by Lorrianne

And yes, I go OOM. Alot! Thank goodness for Innervate, and since i use it when i am practically oom, i effectively have over x2 my mana pool (damn the mana pot cooldown)

You are a Night Elf. Unless they hotfixed this in the last week or so since I last tried it, you can avoid the new pot rule by using Shadowmeld right after you take a pot - the cooldown will start running. I've managed to pot 2 times in a single encounter this way. Granted, this is not a reliable way of mana regeneration as they will probably fix this asap. But until then, Shadowmeld is the best PvE racial ability in the game.