Raiding as a Tree - Page 9

Ailetha · 01/17/08, 2:19 PM

I heal the MTs 95% of the time and I sit in the MT group for all fights in 10 & 25 man raids, the only exception being Archimonde. I have 932 Spirit raid buffed, for the aura. It affects other things, sure, but the only reason I stack spirit is for the aura. Has nothing to do with regen.

It's a matter of preference. If you spend alot of time in the MT group and heal mostly the MTs, prolly you want to stack spirit. Otherwise, stack +heal or balance between +heal/mp5.

Personally, I think druids who sit in the MT group and don't stack spirit are reducing their contribution to the raid. You only need one spirit stacker though, so if you run with multiple resto druids, it doesn't make any sense for more than one to stack really.

YagerMyster · 01/17/08, 5:20 PM

Originally Posted by Ailetha

Personally, I think druids who sit in the MT group and don't stack spirit are reducing their contribution to the raid. You only need one spirit stacker though, so if you run with multiple resto druids, it doesn't make any sense for more than one to stack really.

On the subject of multiple resto druids, I'd like the druid healers here to evaluate Dreamstate/Resto healing. If you already have a tree in the main group, would a dreamstate healer be an effective contributor? Or is there too much spirit found on resto druid gear that would be 'wasted' if you weren't a tree?

Do you feel it is a viable spec in 25man raids? Also, what if the tree druid was unavailable for a raid, would that change your opinions of the value of a dreamstate druid healing?

Our guild is currently farming Kara and Gruuls and learning ZA/TK/SSC (In case this info is helpful).

Uldreth · 01/17/08, 5:47 PM

Originally Posted by YagerMyster

On the subject of multiple resto druids, I'd like the druid healers here to evaluate Dreamstate/Resto healing. If you already have a tree in the main group, would a dreamstate healer be an effective contributor? Or is there too much spirit found on resto druid gear that would be 'wasted' if you weren't a tree?

Do you feel it is a viable spec in 25man raids? Also, what if the tree druid was unavailable for a raid, would that change your opinions of the value of a dreamstate druid healing?

Swiftmend is what really gets lost with a 34/0/27. Instead of having an emergency button every 13-15 sec., you have one every 3 minutes. I'd feel as if I was running without a net with no swiftmend.

It's been well enough documented in this thread and others that HT style is dead. It's just too slow. No Empowered Rejuvination is no way to go.

Leave the direct healing to the other three classes and play to your strenghts, which are lifebloom rolling and keeping rejuvination or regrowth up to swiftmend if need be.

Pyros · 01/17/08, 6:14 PM

Yeah I think the consensus is stack spirit if you're always in MT group, for the aura which adds more benefit raidwide than your own contribution, but if you don't, and I don't, just stack healing as much as possible. If I need some spirit for innervate I'll equip a spirit weapon, but frankly I'd much rather use that innervate on someone else, especially spriests since it's like giving lots of mini innervates to 5people.

As for dreamstate builds... You gain more mana sure, but you also spend 20% more since you're not in treeform. The only fight I'd consider it over full resto would be archi since you have to decurse, but no swiftmend on archi would really suck a lot. Almost everything but the mana regen in balance is useless for healing, and while I do wrath spam on trash quite often to make it faster if there's nothing to heal(I have 13points in balance), it's totally worthless on bosses(besides leo to kill inner selves, but that can be done easily without any points in balance). I only argue with my class leader about the utility of the talent that reduces pushbacks on regrowth, I say it's useless and I could get more balance, and he says I need it, even tho I almost never cast it, and never while getting hit anyway.

Noressa · 01/17/08, 6:29 PM

Originally Posted by YagerMyster

On the subject of multiple resto druids, I'd like the druid healers here to evaluate Dreamstate/Resto healing. If you already have a tree in the main group, would a dreamstate healer be an effective contributor? Or is there too much spirit found on resto druid gear that would be 'wasted' if you weren't a tree?

Do you feel it is a viable spec in 25man raids? Also, what if the tree druid was unavailable for a raid, would that change your opinions of the value of a dreamstate druid healing?

Our guild is currently farming Kara and Gruuls and learning ZA/TK/SSC (In case this info is helpful).

If you have a tree in the main group, I'd suggest 1 other tree in the raid, at most, then feral or full balance depending on your guild roster. There really isn't much benefit to having more then 2 trees in the raid, and there is no benefit post Kara for having a dreamstate druid in the raid (outside of personal preference).

A better way to understand it is to understand what is gained and lost with these specs -
Dreamstate:
1) You gain 10% of your int as mana/5.
2) You gain 25% of your int as +healing/+damage
3) You reduce the cost of several damage and healing spells by 9%. (Does not include Lifebloom.)

Tree of Life:
1) You have Swiftmend, a fast heal on a 15 second cooldown timer, one of the best spike healing tools.
2) Empowered Rejuv increases your HOT effects by 25%. (For the effect it has on Rejuv, a non talented rejuv gets you 80% (20% per tick), 100% with 5/5 Empowered Rejuvenation. Gift of Nature and Improved Rejuvenation stack additively, increasing the total amount healed by Rejuvenation by 25% (at 5/5 and 3/3 respectively) after bonus healing contribution is calculated.)
3) Tree of Life reduces the mana cost of all the spells cast in tree form by 20%.

The benefits of a dreamstate druid vanish as your gear increases. At some point, 10% of int as mana/5 becomes nearly always pointless. The mana/5 that was missing from a lower gear level gets replaced and your regen will go up with upgrades. The same holds true for your +healing. As stated in the post above, the biggest loss out of all of this is swiftmend. At my level of gear it's a 4k+ non crit heal on the tank, every 13 seconds with the 2 piece T6 bonus. For helping to mitigate spike damage, that's a huge number for a very small cooldown.

The only other "alternative" spec which helps mitigate some of the downsides would be a 27/0/34. This only gives you swiftmend, however, and you lose the bonus regen that dreamstate provides, you still don't have the mana reduction from tree of life, and Lunar Guidance still gives you no mana reduction on swiftmend or lifebloom.

For someone who is doing just heroics and Kara, still working up to 1400-1500 +heal, dreamstate is a spec that will help them with the mana issues of lower gear levels and inflate their +healing to help out at the same time. Once you reach 1400 to 1500, there is no real reason to stick with a dreamstate spec beyond wanting a DPS class that doesn't need to respec. At that point, I'd say you're better off either having them as a tree or getting them to spec Moonkin and give your mages a 5% crit aura and faerie fire.

Kamileon · 01/17/08, 11:40 PM

Righty-o, so while reading through one of the Priest threads here, I come across the little gem that in 2.3.2, Bracing Earthstorm's requirements have changed from "More Yellow than Blue and more Red than Blue" to "More Red than Blue." WowHead Link: Bracing Earthstorm Diamond - Items - World of Warcraft

I didn't see any mention of this in the Druid threads, (my bad if it was) so I'm dropping this here. We no longer need to socket pure Teardrop with a token Luminous to activate this meta.

Did we all just miss this in the midst of the Lifebloom trinket change? Hehe.
Edit: It wasn't in the patch notes, or known issues, so I guess I can see how it was missed.

Liebestod · 01/18/08, 11:10 AM

I have a quick question which I haven't seen answered yet, apologies if it has been.

My guild has 2 raiding tree druids, one of which would be me. I have the impression, however, that the guild leader believes that having more than one tree is superfluous, and so when we're both on only one of us will be taken to 25-mans, usually him because I'm lesser-geared atm. It's cool to bring 4 Holy Pallies, but 2 Tree Druids.. why would you need that? Is this viewpoint widespread? Justified? I'm rather curious.

On the other hand, it's possible that I tend to be left out because I'm still probably the least-geared healer of the group (1300 +heal vs. an average of 1800 for the veteran members), but I'm always in when I'm the only tree available. There aren't strict healing assignments, so I usually try to keep HoTs up on the MT and spot heal where I can, but spot healing is difficult when there's no healing assignments as your heals will get sniped... and I can see why in that case you might not want two tree druids, when our spot healing is limited. That's my impression..

Szilia · 01/18/08, 11:33 AM

Just wanted to make you aware of a new addon, that maybe should be added to the list.

It's called Lifebloomer and will keep track of players of your choise. You can see their health and keep track of hots in a frame, one for each target you want. you can target them through it and click cast.

Lifebloomer link

Lambach · 01/18/08, 11:44 AM

Its probably dependent on how he likes to assign healing, and what he(and probably the tanks) feel comfortable with. I prefer 2 trees to 4 paladins in most situations, but perhaps he prefers having those direct heals in the raid. In general however my preference for that extra healers spot is always towards an extra shaman or another COH priest. Are those options for your guild? As generally they would bring more to the table, encounter depending again.

Noressa · 01/18/08, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Kamileon

Righty-o, so while reading through one of the Priest threads here, I come across the little gem that in 2.3.2, Bracing Earthstorm's requirements have changed from "More Yellow than Blue and more Red than Blue" to "More Red than Blue." WowHead Link: Bracing Earthstorm Diamond - Items - World of Warcraft

I didn't see any mention of this in the Druid threads, (my bad if it was) so I'm dropping this here. We no longer need to socket pure Teardrop with a token Luminous to activate this meta.

Did we all just miss this in the midst of the Lifebloom trinket change? Hehe.
Edit: It wasn't in the patch notes, or known issues, so I guess I can see how it was missed.

No it wasn't, but I haven't seen any numbers come from it yet. More red then blue definitely means that we can stack +22 healing, but I'm not sure I'm willing to give up my other meta for it. Due to our chain casting, I believe that the meta is still worth 20 mana/5. (21.875 mana/5 for me on our last Illidan kill). Assuming a shadow priest, it's not that big of a deal, but the mana it returns is still pretty substantial. I'll probably keep using it over 26 +heal and reduced threat.

Originally Posted by Liebestod

I have a quick question which I haven't seen answered yet, apologies if it has been.

My guild has 2 raiding tree druids, one of which would be me. I have the impression, however, that the guild leader believes that having more than one tree is superfluous, and so when we're both on only one of us will be taken to 25-mans, usually him because I'm lesser-geared atm. It's cool to bring 4 Holy Pallies, but 2 Tree Druids.. why would you need that? Is this viewpoint widespread? Justified? I'm rather curious.

On the other hand, it's possible that I tend to be left out because I'm still probably the least-geared healer of the group (1300 +heal vs. an average of 1800 for the veteran members), but I'm always in when I'm the only tree available. There aren't strict healing assignments, so I usually try to keep HoTs up on the MT and spot heal where I can, but spot healing is difficult when there's no healing assignments as your heals will get sniped... and I can see why in that case you might not want two tree druids, when our spot healing is limited. That's my impression..

Having 1 is definitely nice, having 2 essentially removes the need to have any more then 1 other healer on the MT for most situations. For our guild, we have both druids stack HOT's on the tank(s). Usually we'll have 1 other healer with us, and between the rolling lifeblooms, swiftmends, NS and regrow HOT's all ticking, there isn't too much that hits the tank that we don't stabilize quickly. If you're just looking to highlight added benefits, 2 swiftmends, 2 more NS heals, 2 innervates, 2 battle rezzes are all good arguments. Figure out your HP/S with your gear and show how much you'd add to strictly maintenance heals (regrow HOT portion, rejuv averaged over 3 seconds, then added to your lifebloom sum.)

A few things you should be doing: Your gear has some definite low notes. You're in MH, don't expect everything to fall down and shower you. Show some effort in getting upgrades while you wait.
(PVE options)
1) Badges. Bracers can be replaced with Gargon's Bracers Peaceful Slumber, cloak with Kharmaa's Shroud of Hope, Natural Life Leggings for your legs, Gnarled Ironwood Pauldrons for your shoulders. Pick up Moon-walkers as well for your boots. Not ideal but a heck of a lot better then what you have now.

2) Mech. While waiting on badges for the boots, grab the pair from the chest with the 2 mini-bosses gems. The Cosmic Lifeband is also a good option (second boss). It's one of the higher +healing rings out there, with good mana/5 still.

3) Enchants. You have next to no enchants at all. 50 armor on your cloak? Nothing on boots, legs, gloves, helm? 7 stamina to bracers? Show some effort in making the best of what you have the best you can. Be serious about your raiding position. Right now I'm seeing a lack of trying with your gear. If I was creating the raid setup, that would definitely influence my decision to bring someone.

(PVP options)
1) Boots/Belt/Bracers - Decent amount of honor here, but all the pieces are great PVE gear, both for PVP stats and healing stats. Even if you don't like arenas, AV grinds should net you these pieces fairly easily.

2) Ring/Neck - Better then what you currently have, again good stats for PVP and PVE.

Liebestod · 01/18/08, 12:46 PM

I've been 70 for about 3 weeks, using all my money atm to level up enchanting and then I'll put those mats towards enchants rather than buying my own (this should have been obvious.) Wasn't looking for a critique of my gear though, I know what I need to work on. I didn't ask what I could do to outgear the other druid.

Noressa · 01/18/08, 12:56 PM

I wasn't saying it to outgear, sorry if that seemed the case. Phrased without suggestions, I'd say when you're in a better gear position, arguing for 2 druids should be a relatively easy case with everything from these forums, and filter in your own numbers. More then 2 trees is too much, but 2 decently geared trees are a definite asset.

Kamileon · 01/18/08, 6:02 PM

Originally Posted by Noressa

No it wasn't, but I haven't seen any numbers come from it yet. More red then blue definitely means that we can stack +22 healing, but I'm not sure I'm willing to give up my other meta for it. Due to our chain casting, I believe that the meta is still worth 20 mana/5. (21.875 mana/5 for me on our last Illidan kill). Assuming a shadow priest, it's not that big of a deal, but the mana it returns is still pretty substantial. I'll probably keep using it over 26 +heal and reduced threat.

Gearing all red for the maximum healing is hardly a new concept around raiding tree gear, honestly. The major change here is that is no longer strictly necessary to use ALL red (+1 yellow) instead of using some or mostly Royal gems. This opens it up to people who don't need as much regen as using all Royals AND IED, but needed more regen than all reds + Bracing offered.

The choice between Bracing and Insightful comes down to whether or not the extra regen is needed. The extra "value" of 20 mana/5 is actually 0 if you will not need or use the extra mana generated.

Pyros · 01/18/08, 8:43 PM

About the 2 druids question. We run with 2trees quite often, and we both do fine on healing. A 4th paladin is superfluous at best, the 4th blessing is rarely of any use, as paladins will usually set it so hybrids have the blessings they need for every spec, such as might salv wisdom kings on druids, feral boomkin or resto alike, and won't rebuff light for the stuff not needed on everyone. I don't blame them, this whole blessing thing is a mess really. Their heals mostly serve the same purpose as druids when on main tanks, aka non stop fol stabilizer+big heal when needed, the additional aura isn't very useful. So really besides their healing, they don't bring anything to a raid, and on most fights a druid can do the same healing job as a paladin, while still providing innervate and combat rez.

Another shaman or another CoH priest(or a spi priest if you don't have one), yea it'd be justified seeing how they bring interesting stuff on their own, but 4paladins instead of 2resto druids, definitely not. Unless the tank takes less than one lifebloom tick to be full hp after every hit on a boss fight, having 2 lifebloom stack is not wasted. It's actually much better, as it smoothes out spikes better than anything barring earthshield and prayer of mending, and those only work once every now and then.

However pointing how your gear is is actually quite related to your situation, if your gear was good/well enchanted and you came prepared, maybe they wouldn't always take a 4th paladin. It'd probably be a better idea to enchant your gear first, then level enchanting and sell the mats to cover what you spent in the first place, because it'd let you be more useful during raids. Oh and I had everything enchanted and gemmed ~4weeks after I hit 70, and I'm still using some of it, or was not long ago. I still have pvp neck/ring, badge cloak and primal mooncloth set, I replaced badge bracers this week, whitemend hood last week, whitemend pants 2weeks ago and living growth gloves(crafted) last week. I've been raiding for almost 2months now.

As for the meta discussion, I'll agree that while the mana regen one is pretty nice, I rarely find myself under 20% mana at the end of any given fight yet(5/5MH and 4/9BT), and I almost never drink pots either, so I'd probably start by doing that instead of getting a meta. However, I use healing spells all night, so 26healing is definitely something that I'd notice. I might even notice 2%threat seeing as how I pull aggro on trash every night with early swiftmends to save the tank life. Then again most of the time I'm way too far on threat for 2% to do anything, or 20% for that matter ^^.

Playered · 01/18/08, 11:17 PM

I question why you would say an additional CoH Priest is a greater yield than a Resto Druid however?
Mt. Hyjal I can see no real encounter where the benefit is greater or even equal.
Black Temple you have RoS and perhaps Bloodboil (however Druids tend to be a safer choice due to survivability?).
I guess if you have your raid used to being specifically grouped up to enable the very best possible results it will go well but...