Well, the intent was more or less to see how we are shaping up comparatively. Lets face it, this is a compare/contrast class game. If we aren't getting similar buffs to warlocks in our primary spell rotation, then we should plan on taking full advantage of the feedback channels blizz opens up in alpha and beta and let them know its not quite balanced. Who wants to play a nuke class (mage or druid) that can't compete against another nuke class?....Anyway, game philosophy isn't theorycraft. So lets get back on topic.

I chose to compare Starfire to Incinerate because you can tell just by looking at the current version of Lock talents that all the love is going to fire spells deep in the tree. The 45 point talent in destro specifically caters to the Immo/Incinerate combination. Emberstorm increases only Fire damage by 10% and decreases the cast time only of Incinerate by .25 seconds. Lets not forget the 3rd tier talent, Molten Core, which gives a 10% chance to make all DoTs (immolate) specifically increase Fire spells by 10%. Both Molten Core and Eternal Flames complement each other beautifully...an auto refreshed DoT that gives a constant 10% chance to increase the refreshing spell's damage and immolate's DoT by 10%. That may change, but currently the tree is fire heavy.

Warlock is a support class. Healthstones, soulstones, curses, imp+raiddebuffs in affliction, ISB for spriests. Mages on the other hand have group buffs that can be done by an alt before a pull (yay for that mechanic) and sheeps which are a trash and gimmick boss fight tool at best.
It is part of the problem right now, that warlocks also top dps all over the place and even replaced mages as top aoers.

So in fact i would state that in personal dps locks should be on the level of moonkins and shadow priests with mages a good part ahead.
This already works for melees with no complains up to the point of class imbalance in the game. Rogues > fury Warriors > Retadins+arms warriors > Enh shamans roughly, which is coincidentally also the order of least dps buffs to other classes.

Enh shamans >> Retadins and arms warriors from what I have seen.... they go close up with rogues and fury warriors... they also like to die often.

Wouldn't mind seeing lock dps scaled back - I think that's what's happening to their trees anyways - no new dps increases... ones they got are less than 5% total increase...

I think balance with the current alpha talents is going to lack alot compared to other classes come WotLK. There is not enough real damage increases when compared to other classes.

Just a couple ideas for improvement off the top of my head:
-melee for mana changed to a % mana back on spell crit
-20/40/60/80/100% chance to refresh moonfire and insect swarm when a starfire or wrath lands added on to Nature's Fury
-reflection switched with subtlety, subtlety dispell protection works with balance spells again
-threat reduction moved from nature's reach to improved moonkin form
-nature's reach now adds 15/30% damage to hurricane and typhoon, gale winds removed
-moonfury and improved moonfire now apply to insect swarm as well (rename improved moonfire)
-eclipse's cooldown removed, now 33/66/100% chance to apply buff

So, early signs are that Moonkin is becoming an OOMKIN again, quite the mana guzzler in the field test at the WII, some great spells. But it's clear they have left two major things left to tackle: Mana regen and somehow making feral school trainable abilities meaningful to balance. Mana is our focus here and NOTHING new was added to help with it. Shiny new spells given, more exciting play, but no mana help to cope. not yet anyway. Balance struggles enough as it is mandatory to take intensity in the restoration now in TBC and use Inn on yourself, neither should be the case.

Mana presents the Chief remaining major problem for WotLK, all others have been addressed (providing no major nerfs come). Every dps caster class apart from Balance druids, have a combination of trainable abilities and abilities in their own talent tree that allow them to have enough mana to cope in raids. Often also if these builds want more they can optionally take the mana saving talent in one of the other caster trees. However balance druids have to take intensity anyway, and it's still not enough. Look at the comparitive chart below, it's ridiculous how much little help balance gets with mana, and our base spells cost as much and are one of the most inefficient. Seriously it's the only build forced to get intensity a regen ability in another tree AND still needing to innervate itself. Balance dps is normally lower than others because you are forced to cast using least mana. All the other casters have far greater leeway you aren't pinching yourself to keep mana anywhere near as much as you do for the balance druid. It really needs to be sorted out once and for all.

Observation 1:
All dps caster classes have at least 2 active abilities for regaining mana, and at least 3 passive talents for spell efficiency and mana regen in their tree, often with more. I can list those for you if you like. Balance druids only have 1 active ability, innervate, which is intended to be a buff for others in a raid not really yourself, and only 2 talents in balance. It's not enough at all and all balance druids MUST spec into another tree to get what it takes for raids. So how much does it take for raids?

Observation 2:
Well: It seems that at the most, you should have enough mana for an encounter if you have picked up all your own trees regen and efficiency talents AND have at least 2 mana regen buffs from other classes (like BoW/Mana spring) that can benefit you. In tougher situations, also consuming pots will help.

Observation 3
Raiders also do not be obsessed with your raiding needs so much so you forget that pvp and arena also need balance having mana. If it's enough for PvE it should be enough for PvP, atm, balance loses mana like a water in a bowl with a hole. Here mana for melee from treants of force of nature and the druid himself in a feral form should help. Whiles I would expect only a few to use their forms to get mana back on a boss fight in a raid dungeon I would expect PvE solo and pvp would find more frequent use.

Alternatively, you can take ALL your mana regen/efficiency talents in your tree AND take the good one in another tree (if available) and you should be able to cope without even the support buffs, You have a choice depending on what talents you picked etc only balance again HAS to pick up that talent in restoration:

Prognosis:
Balance heading into WotLK will need more help with mana, and it should get it in it's tree and from training abilities, so that innervate can be more freely given as a buff and that it is not necessary to spec to intensity:

Suggestions that Fit into the Balance Druid Theme:
1. An ability that could return mana on crit with spells
2. Mana on melee applying to your treants also and working in every form returning mana equal to the damage you do
3. Innervate could also become a group buff as a possibility, although that might be a bit too far fetched it would at least be able to be a buff to others and help you out. But really I would hope to have enough mana regen through the above two features and the one below so innervate can be a buff to another player.
4. Another nice touch would be Omen of Clarity working for spells too, however note this is a resto talent, the less we feel we need to spec into another tree to carry out a function our own tree should provide properly, the better. but it would be a nice little extra some will take seeing that feral combat tree is still pointless for balance.
Talents could look like this:
Moonkin Form: (31 pt)
Shapeshift into Moonin Form. While in this form, the armor contribution from items is increased by 400%, and all party members within 30 yards have their spell critical chance increased by 5%. Critical strikes with spell return double the mana cost of the spell cast.

Mana on Melee: (15 pts)
Melee attacks generated by the druid in all forms and his guardians (inc Force of Nature), have a chance on hit to regenerate mana equal to the damage caused. In addition: Any bear or cat form special ability including finishers will restore 10% of your total mana up to a max of 50%. When you return to caster form each move you did in feral forms would start a buff of 40% extra spell damage and reduces the cost of you and your party's spells by 25% for 6secs, up to a max of 30secs.

Finally you can’t leave mana for melee in feral forms out when we’ve been crying for balance to have as much use for the feral combat school melee abilities as it has for it’s healing abilities. Strongly feel this will diversify our playstyle more making it more fun and having it restore mana actually makes it meaningful to melee. We also feel that it is nice as an optional but also needs to be powerful otherwise it will never be used. In total we feel that your other mana abilities should not make it necessary to use forms to melee in a boss fight, however those brave enough to spend a few seconds going melee have a handsome reward. Otherwise it is great to use on trash in pvE groups, in PvE solo and in pvp too.

In total you have:
1. Moonglow, 2. Dreamstate, 3. Moonkin Form, 4. Mana on melee with Treants.

as optionals: You can spend innervate on yourself, or if you use it on others, you can go to cat/bear form and melee a bit, although with shrewd casting you shouldn't have to.

This is the State of the Mana Regen & Spell Efficiency Ability and Talents Available to the Other Casters:
By default it affords them a higher dps cycle and less stress on mana
They don't all HAVE to go for ALL the mana regen abilities in the other schools, their base abilities plus their own school's talent tree are often enough. I only ever took mana regen/efficiency talents in other schools when once our guild didn't have raiding shaman/paladins and shadow priests showing up: With my mage and priest. Never needed with my locks. So help would be nice.

Mages:
Fire Mages:
1. Mage Armor 2. Evocate 3. Mana gems: 4. Master of Elements 5. Pyromaniac
Optionals: 1. Arcane Concentration: 2. Arcane Meditation 3. Elemental Precision. 4. Magic Absorption

Arcane Mage:
1. Mage Armor 2. Evocate 3. Mana gems: 4. Arcane Focus: 5. Student of the Mind: 6. Magic Absorption
Optionals: 1. Master of the Elements 2. Elemental precision

Frost Mage:
1. Mage Armor 2. Evocate 3. Mana gems: 4. Elemental Precision 5. Frost Channelling
Optionals: 1. Arcane Concentration: 2. Arcane Meditation 3. Master of the Elements 4: Magic Absorption

Warlocks:
Affliction Locks
1. Life Tap 2. Drain Mana: 3. Dark Pact. 4. imp Drain Soul. 5. Imp Life Tap
Optionals:

Demonology Locks
1. Life Tap 2. Drain Mana:
Optionals: 1.imp Drain Soul 2. Imp Life Tap 3. Dark Pact 4. Sacrifice Fel Hunter 5. Demonic Pact

Destruction Locks
1. Life Tap 2. Drain Mana: 3. Eternal Flames
Optionals: 1. imp Drain Soul 2. Imp Life Tap 3. Dark Pact

Elemental Shaman
1. Mana Spring Totem 2. Water Shield. 3. Convection 4. Elemental Focus: 5. Unrelenting Storm: 6. Elemental Mastery: 7. Lightning Overload: 8. Thunder:
Optionals: 1. Elemental Shields 2. Totemic Focus: 3. Restorative Totems

Priests
Shadow:
1. Shadowfiend 2. Spirit Tap 3. Improved Spirit Tap 4. Shadow Focus. 5. Focused Mind. 6. Vampiric Touch 7. Dispersion: 8. Symbol of Hope or Consume Magic (racial only)
Optionals: 1. Absolution 2. Meditation 3. Mental Agility

Discipline:
1. Shadow fiend. 2. Absolution 3. Meditation 4. Mental Agility 5. Divine Spirit 6. Power Infusion. 7: Symbol of Hope or Consume Magic (racial only)
Optionals: 1. Spirit Tap 2. Improved Spirit Tap


Talents that increase intellect or pet mana weren't included, none of which druids have.

Mana Regen Appendix:
Look up what the abilities above mentioned do:

Mage:
1. Mage Armor (Rank6) Increases your resistance to all magic by 40 and allows 30% of your mana regeneration to continue while casting. In addition, the duration of all harmful Magic effects used against you is reduced by 50%."
2. Evocate: 8 min cooldown: While channeling you gain 60% of your total mana over 8secs
3. Mana Gem Rank 7: Mana Sapphire: Restores 3330 to 3500 mana
4. Magic Absorption (Arcane 5pts) Increases all resitances by 1 per level and causes all spells you fully resist to restore 5% of your total mana. 1sec cooldown
5. Arcane Concentration (Arcane 5pts): Gives you a 10% chacne of entering a Clearcasting state after any damage spell hits a target. The Clearcasting state reduces the mana cost of your next damage spell by 100%
6. Arcane Meditation (Arcane 15pts) Allows 30% of your mana regeneration to continue while casting.
7, Student of the Mind (Arcane 40pts) Increases your total spirit by 12%
8. Master of Elements (Fire 15pts) Your Fire and Forst spell cirticals will refund 10% of their base mana cost.
9. Pyromaniac [Fire 30pts]: Increases chance to criticall hit and reduces the mana cost of all Fire spells by an additional 3%
10: Elemental Precision: (Frost, 0pts) Reduces the mana cost and increases your chance to hit with Frost and Fire spells by 3%
11. Frost Channeling (Frost 15pts) Reduces the mana cost of your Frost spells by 15% and reduces the threat caused by your Frost spells by 10%

Warlock
1. Life tap: Converts 580 health to mana
2. Drain Mana: Transfers 200 Mana every 1 sec from the target to the caster. Lasts 5 sec.
3. Dark Pact (Affliction 30 pts): Drains 700 of your pet's Mana, returning 100% to you.
4. Improved Drain Soul (Aff 5pts): Returns 15% of your maximum mana if the target is killed by you while you drain it's soul. In addition, your Afflcition spells generate 5% less threat
5. Imp Life Tap (Aff 5pts): Increases the amount of Mana Warded by your Life Tap spell by 20%
6. Sacrifice Demon (Demo 20pts): Felhunter: REstores 3% of total mana every 4 secs
7. Demonic Pact (Demo 45pts) : Increases your Spirit by 5% while dmon is active and pet attacks have 35% chance to increase party's total health and damage by 3%, stacks 3 times
8. Eternal Flames (Dest 45pts): Your Searing Pain and Incinerate spells have a 100% chance to refresh the duration of your immolate spells.

Elemental Shaman:
1. Mana Spring (TBC final rank): Summons a Mana Spring Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster for 2 min that restores 20 mana every 2 seconds to group members within 20 yards.
2. Water Shield: The caster is surrounded by 3 globes of water, granting 50 mana per 5 sec. When a spell, melee or ranged attack hits the caster, 200 mana is restored to the caster. This expends one water globe. Only one globe will activate every few seconds. Lasts 10 min. Only one Elemental Shield can be active on the Shaman at any one time.
3. Convection (Ele 0pts): Reduces the mana cost of your Shock, Lightning Bolt, Chaini LIghtning, Thunder and Lava Burst spells by 12%
4. Elemental Focus (Ele 10pts): After landing a critical strike with a Fire, Frost, or Nature damage spell, Lesser Healing Wave or Healing Wave, you enter a Clearcasting state. The Clearcasting state reduces the mana cost of you next 2 damage or healing spells by 40%
5. Unrelenting Storm (Ele 20pts): Regeneraties mana equal to 10% of you Intellect every 5 sec, even while casting
6. Elemental Mastery (Ele 30pts): 10sec cooldown: When activated, this spell gives your next Fire, Frost, or Nature damage spell a 100% critical strike chance and reduces the mana cost by 100%
7. Lightning Overload: (Ele 35pts) Gives your Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning spells a 20% chance to cast a second, similar spell on the same target at no additional cost that causes half damage and no threat.
8. Thunder: (Ele 50pts) You call down a bolt of lightning, energising you and damaging nearby enemies within 10yrds. Restors 5% mana to you and deals 595 Nature damage to all nearby enemies, knocking them back 2yards.
9. Elemental Shields: (Enh 0 pts) Increase the amount of mana gained from you Mana Shiled orbs by 15%
10 Totemic Focus: (Restoration 5pts) Reduces the mana cost of your totems by 25%
11. Restorative Totems: (Restoration 15pts) Increase the effect of your Mana Spring and Healing Stream Totems by 25%

Priests:
1. Shadowfiend: Creates a shadowy fiend to attack the target. Caster receives mana when the Shadowfiend deals damage. Lasts 15 sec. [Scales with level and gear]
2. Symbol of Hope: 5min cooldown Greatly increases the morale of party members, giving them 180 mana every 5 sec (@level 70, not checked level 80 yet). Effect lasts 15 sec.
Consume Matic Dispels one beneficial Magic effect from the caster and gives them 453 to 488mana (@level 70, didn't check wotlk ranks though). The dispelled effect must be a priest spell.
3. Spirit Tap: (Shadow 0pts) Gives you a 100% chance to gain a 100% bonus to your Spirit after killing a target that yields experience or honor. for the druation, your mana will regenerate at a 50% rate while casting. Lasts 15secs.
4. Improved Spirit Tap: (Shadow 0 pts) Gives you a 100% chance to gain a 50% bonus to your Sprit after gaining a critical effect chance form your Mind Blast or Shadow Word: Death Spells. For the druation, your mana will regenerate at a 25% rate while casting. Lasts 8 secs.
5. Shadow Focus: (Shadow 5pts) Increases your chance to hit with Shadow spells by 3% and reduces the mana cost of your shadow spells by 6%
8. Focused Mind (Shadow 20pts). Reduces the mana cost of your Mind Blast, Mind Control, Mind Flay and Mind Sear spells by 15%
7. Vampiric Touch (Shadow 40pts) : Causes 850 damage over 15secs (Rank 5 Wotlk) . Mana gain to party members equal to 2% of the shadow damage you deal (do note though that shadow priests so far have the Highest damage increase in wotlk)
8. Dispersion(Shadow 50pts): Instant: 5 min cooldown: 50pts: You disperse into pure shadow energy, reducing all damage taken by 90%. You are unable to attack or cast spells, but you regenerate 6% health and mana every 1sec for 6seconds.
9. Absolution: (Discipline 10pts) Reduces the mana cost of your dispel magic, cure disease, abolish disease and Mass Dispel spells by 15%
10. Meditation (Disc 10pts): Allows 30% of your mana regeneration to continue while casting
11. Mental Agility (Disc 15pts) : Reduces the mana cost of your instant cast spells by 10%
12. Divine Spirit (Disc 20pts) : Holy Power infuses the target, increasing their Spirit by 80 for 30mins at level 80
13.Power Infusion (Disc 30pts): Instant: 2min cooldown: Infuses the target with power, increasing spell casting speed by 20% and reducing the mana cost of all spells by 20%. Lasts 15seconds.

Balance Druids
1. Innervate: (trained) Increases the target's Spirit based mana regeneration by 400% and allows full mana regeneration while casting:
2. Moonglow (balance 15pts): Reduces the Mana cost of your Moonfire, Starfire, Starfall, Wrath, Healing Touch, Regrowth and Rejuvenation spells by 9%
3. Dreamstate (balance 25pts). Regenerate mana equal to 10% of your Intellect every 5sec, even while casting
4. Intensity (restoration, 10pts) Allows 30% of your mana regneration to continue while casting and causes your enrage ability to instantly generate 10 rage.

THAT IS IT.. can you believe it: at least with the suggestions we could add:
5. Moonkin Form:
6. Mana on Melee (balance 15pts)

A developer was already quoted as saying there was no more bonus healing stat, and no more bonus spell damage stat -- both were replaced with one "spell power" stat, making the first line of that version of Natures Fury out-moded. The version I have seen is identical minus the bonus healing conversion part (basically just a 20-100% chance to apply the stacking debuff).

Not to worry though -- that's basically a 6% damage buff to Arcane Mages and Elemental Shaman on top of the various moonkin buffs (5% crit + 20% group haste, raid +hit buff), something every raid will love.

As to the post above me that is denigrating balance druid mana regeneration abilities, keep in mind Balance Druids can easily get both Dreamstate and Intensity to go alongside their Innervate. Elemental Shaman, by comparison, have no ability to regenerate mana through spirit. At all. And neither do Warlocks. Just because other classes get more mana regeneration abilities, that does not = them having more mana regeneration. In the "right" gear, very few class/spec combinations have a deeper mana pool than a Dreamstate+Intensity Druid.

The Spell Power stat will appear on all armor, no longer will itemization distinguish between melee and spells for hit and crits, however spell and melee hit do exist separately and will continue to have respective talents in melee dpsers and spell casters buff as described, unchanged.

As for the mana issue, the gripe is two fold, we HAVE to get intensity to cope, I don't believe any class school specilazer should have to go out of it's tree to be viable, it's viability should be addressed in it's tree, then the ability in the other tree a nice bonus, I would view intensity for a balance druid to be a talent I would take if i was raiding often without both BoW and Mana Spring, however if i was, I should have the regen i need from the balance tree. But you do make a point about elemental shaman however again, you do realise that balance druid's caster starfire as they do for mana conservation and not necessarily because it's the highest dps. Without curse of elements you wouldn't be using higher dps wrath because you'd go OOM too quick, and you avoid using moonfire altogether. I don't think any other caster has to make or scale back so much to retain mana. Okay on some very few mana intensive fights yes they do, but on most fights they don't whereas you have to in every fight for a balance druid.

Have a look at the mana regen available to other classes now, you honestly cannot say that it is something blizzard have looked at since they did TBC alpha. They haven't, and they've not looked at it yet either for WotLK and it becomes a big problem. You tried out the alpha? or the WWI demo? You go OOM long before any other dps caster, unless you avoid using all your spells. Also Innervate really is meant to be a buff, whiles i would love to use it on myself especially on draining fights, I would hope I wouldn't need to so it can be a buff to others. I should have enough mana regen capability from the balance tree to avoid needing to use it on myself in all but the most draining fights.

What? I don't understand your logic behind this feral melee for mana idea. Its counter intuitive to the basis of being balance spec and would be awkward. Plus as you melee in feral form, your dps would SUCK!

Oh, and who exactly has been crying for feral/balance synergy? Google the subject and you find very few words wasted on it. Neither has the number crunching community in the EJ threads talked about this idea. Are you talking about just yourself and your irl friends?

Hmm, well I guess the main problem talentwise for boomkins is the hybrid thing. Three trees for three different roles means that you get a lot of different themes but less flavour for each one of them lest it would make all your trees way to bloated. That being said I agree that you deserve something that helps a bit with mana. Now that they removed the +damage from +healing effect from nature´s fury they could instead add that the debuff also grants you a little manareturn for all arcane crits on the affected target. Would make your own starfire crits return some mana and it would increase synergy with arcane mages.

About Innervate, yeah, I probably exaggerated a bit, I do tend to cast it on myself often enough because funnily enough I need it more than anyone else because of my poor regen ability. The fact is even with Innervate going to yourself, the number of your regen & efficiency abilities and their effectiveness is still quite small compared to other dps casters as that list I made in the big post shows (just count them). And with Innervate you still have to be extremely conservative. without innervate on yourself currently in TBC you'd be goin OOM a lot faster. So despite everything it certainly is not enough, and ideally, (ideally really) it shouldn't be necessary for you but hey, that is not a bad thing if it is necessary for you, I'm sure occasions will arise when it is more handy to give to a friend my only gripe is you won't have enough to cope if it did, not without some dev love.

That is a good point Anedris, if you look at the big post I wrote above, you will see I pick up on that. I feel that for all the other dps casters, the devs have tuned it such that your mana regen is balanced such that with your trainable abilities and your talents in YOUR own tree only, you should have enough mana IF you have mana regen raid buffs from other sources like Palas/shadow priests and elemental shaman in a group, (in fact I think you don't need to go outside your tree with just 2 out of the 3 available to you), only go outside your tree when you tend to have only one or less available. You feel that you see no reason moonkin can't be the same, what I am saying that what I have described is what is the state for every caster but moonkin. I only have to delve into a tree outside my own for mana regen as a Mage, Warlock or Elemental Shaman when I am constantly not raiding with classes I can benefit from both buffs, however with the balance druid regardless I have to take intensity. Although shadow priests almost all go deep into discipline, did you try out their WotlK build? The mana regen is so sweet, the discipline talents are icing, this is how it should be for balance.

The sad thing is that balance feels very bloated in WotLK because you have to spec to intensity too, intensity really should be a nicety, you should have enough in your own tree and your trainable abilities like every other dps caster class, balance druids do not have enough if they don't spec intensity, rather than being a vital tool if you aren't raiding with raid mana buffing classes. It would be nice. at the end of the day, balance druids can manage as it is, but you'd have to really only almost always cast starfire and you will have to take intensity as a must rather than a nice bonus option if you were scared of meleeing for mana in forms or a nice needed tool if you weren't raiding with support class buffers

who knows, maybe you're right, ofc all that comparison I've done between the dps caster mana regen abilities means that in TBC we're fine and in WotLK we're fine, maybe I'm over exagerrating, it just seems to me that in TBC I have to be a lot more conservative with my casting than I do on my Mage and Elemental Shaman, and from what I've tried out so far on WotLK, I go way OOM long before they do if I dps mobs at the speed they do. But off course if you feel they are fine, then I guess they are, bear in mind shadow priests, ele shaman and balance druids will also get very similar itemisation, so do not expect more mana regen from your gear than those two will get, but maybe you feel that the talents and abilities available to balance to balance druids that are listed above will be enough. We shall see, but tbh I'd feel much better if they introduced about 2 or 3 more.

maybe, but as for mana on melee, I made a lot of noise about it earlier, read reply 141 on page 6 of this thread that I feel best expalins why the need. Oh and yeah ofc your dps would suck, I believe the idea is that you use it when you're desperate and the ability I described above (read it agian quickly) intentionally gives you a boost to spell power intended to compensate you for losing the dps. I feel the idea is that going to a feral form should not be something you are forced to use in a raid encounter so other regen abilities like mana back on spell crit and treant damage giving you mana should be enough. However there should be some really attractive benefits of using a form to melee so at least outside the boss fight you will make allowance to use it and also in other parts of the game like pvE solo, pvp. Or you can master your class by even knowing the precise moment in a boss fight you can make full use of this, but at least you don't have to becasue you have other abilities and you can spec intensity.

As for more my irl, yeah, I wish some of the great druids on the EU boards, the wotlk wiki boards and other i've met in game were my irl mates, it is all their input and suggestions etc that have refined the idea about mana on melee to the really simple form that I have presented in the post above. Long story short, if meleeing in a form is too awkward and the benefit of what this feature brings is not attractive enough to attempt to use it occasionally, you have at least other ways of making mana back that shoudln't force you to be awkward. I for one will welcome the occasional need to melee in a feral form - and mind you I will only once in a while need to do that, like I only once in a while need to heal as a balance druid, kinda nice don't you think i need to melee using feral combat school abilities for mana as often as i need to heal using resto abilities for health - i think it makes my game play more diverse, and the fact it's not that often nor absolutely necessary but darn useful is good enough, as one person said, having the feature doesn't hurt.

I for one really hope they do that or similar, not just one but several, i don't want to wait till WotLK comes out and all those goons have tried it then tried other classes to finally realise that there is a mana problem and moan till next year something gets done. Best the issue be brought to the front light now so something can be given. I would hate to go into WotLK still having to spec intensity and still having to really just cast Starfire because anything else is too inefficient, it will limit by dps contribution, but hey for some it will always be fine.

It would be nice. at the end of the day, balance druids can manage as it is, but you'd have to really only almost always cast starfire and you will have to take intensity as a must rather than a nice bonus option if you were scared of meleeing for mana in forms or a nice needed tool if you weren't raiding with support class buffers

Yes, that may be true, but I don't think he is saying it is all rosey for other casters, nor that it is a tit for tat "if all casters have, so must I" sort of thing, he seems to be just pointing out that it is harder for balance druids and some help is quite justifiable. I agree, I don't care about other classes currently, but they do seem able to pull off a fair bit more bang for buck to use the phrase. The entire point of his the wall of text, (as I understood it) is that they could be much nicer with mana to the balance druid. He's probably played it at the worldwide invitational and noticed mana is even more a problem, and he is certainly not happy that he has to spec to intensity and has to stick to starfire spam if he is ever to have enough mana. I think it's a fair point.

I wonder if spreadsheets will show any different, but when I look at what the other classes have to help out, it's looking unfairly harsh on balance druids, and I feel a couple of new abilities and talents to help out would be a good and justified call.

Personally, I like the suggestion of getting spell cost back on crit, again this plays in to balance druid's strengths of being crit focused as they have cast time reduction on crit (NG), spell haste on crit (iMkA), crit aura (MkA) are it's theme. So it seems logical one extra help for mana can come. It doesn't have to be all spells it could be just your next Moonfire and Wrath that get cast free. or 40% of next spell.

I think the idea of mana on melee being more universally applicable to the balance druid in any form and his guardians are spot on. I think it would be fun to occasionally melee in a feral form to get some mana back, I certaonly don't mind losing some dps to get in two or three special moves when I get 20 or 30% mana back and a 40% increase to spell damage for 12 or 18secs respectively.

I also think it's genius having the mana on melee apply to treants too, as the druid guardians it is not directly a treant ability, but it's a talent that will give an extra function to treants, but it's not focused on treants, they just benefit from it, and good too. It means that every 2mins some mana can get back without needing to go to forms. So if you combine having Innervate, spell crit giving a free spell (or just a free moonfire or wrath) and the treants meleeing restoring mana, you shouldn't really need to go to feral forms to get mana in the middle of a boss fight, but if you enjoy doing that, you get a nice buff consequently, and off course I would use it when grinding instead of drinking. I do envy warlocks who can mana tap, mages who can make their own water and shadow priests who have a mini innervate every time they kill in Wotlk.

Balance druids spend as much mana for spells as any other class, why should they have less mana regen capabilities and have to economise so much or need intensity as a must have? Surely they could give them some help so they match up better and can have more leeway and so vary their casting focusing on maximising dps as the main goal with the secondary consideration of mana efficiency, which seems to be the case for other dps casters and not the reverse. Also I think that buff for meleeing forms is justifiably powerful as it is risky for a caster to go into melee, but vital to have it a feature that can be used as it simply is using more of the class. Having it won't hurt.

I think that is a good point, an excellent want, very astute of you Skallewag and I think it is spot on. It is because of this I also will agree with balancemoon and say it is vital that balance make some use of feral forms and to get mana back in a nice buffed way makes a lot of sense. I must admit I was initial a big adversary of this, but after thinking about it then playing my balance druid till I was low on mana while grinding, I swaw what he was saying it is a hell of a lot more fun to do a little melee then, and the nice thing is that you are indeed adding more flavour without giving more abilities. It uses what the balance druid gets.

The fun factor is huge, balance not having as much flavour, my flavour as a balance druid would be healing when I’m low on health, and when I’m low on mana switch to cat or bear and whack a few things. I just like the idea of being to do this, but unless the feature gives something powerful I doubt balance druids would ever use it. Would be very nice, all inall it would be hard to beat this.