thorns is pvp, and it is a part of the game for balance druids we are weak in, it was mentioned for the sake of giving a more compelte scope of the nerfs.
However, Imp Moonkin Aura is definitely PvE, and without a good aura boost.. ALL the other talents for balance are rather nice, but don't really do much for pVE, Can't believe they think giving 20% spell haste when you crit is so op it has to have a 30sec cooldown slapped on it that makes it really underwhelming.
anyway, look at some of those paladin talents, holy with judgements and retribution also, look at Wrath of Air Totem, and we needed that iMkA to be nice, it seemed too good for some, but that was before you knew the changes to paladins and the wrath of air totem, seeing that balance doesn't give anything else to group than spell damage, no mana, no other utilities/buffs, just damage related, it needed to be powerful and with a 30secs cooldown, it's mediocre, second consideration effect, nice to have, not an on par effect. Raid wide or party wide.
Thing is - druid talents and spells have been out for some time, paladin ones just came out. We are now QQing about nerfs to our talents as they are adjusting them. It stands to reason that paladin talents/spells will also eventually be nerfed down to line.
Or that ours get adjusted again as well. This is beta now - I imagine that in alpha, they try out things and see if the work in general, in beta the fine tuning/adjusting of numbers starts in earnest (which never really ends, otherwise we'd only see content and bugfix patches).
Thing is - druid talents and spells have been out for some time, paladin ones just came out. We are now QQing about nerfs to our talents as they are adjusting them. It stands to reason that paladin talents/spells will also eventually be nerfed down to line.
In TBC beta, they said that Moonkin's melee-for-mana was an experiment they weren't happy with and would be changed. That was 15 months ago. You have to get these talents/abilities fixed now, or they won't be for quite some time (or ever, as in Force of Nature).
That being said, with the internal cooldowns on these talents, you can save yourself some points by only putting 1/3 or 2/3 into them.
The Washington Post helps perpetuate a common and pernicious misreading of the decision, referring to "the Supreme Court’s judgment that corporations have the same rights as people when it comes to political speech." What the Supreme Court actually said is that people do not lose their free speech rights when they organize as corporations, including nonprofit interest groups as well as businesses.
Hello guys, 1st of, this is my 1st post in here... But a long time reader and player.
I was looking at the crude description of the Owlkin Frenzy talent...
Attacks done to you while in Moonkin form have a 15% chance to cause you to go into a Frenzy, increasing your damage by 10% and causes you to be immune to pushback while casting Balance spells. Lasts 10 sec.
...And so I was thinking. "Attacks done to you" would actually only be the ones that the mob actually targets you and cast a spell or melee? Or let's say that AoE abilities like Gruul's Cave In, Vashj's Forked Lightning, Karathress' Spitfire Totem, Kaz'rogal's Hellfire, Supremus' Volcanoes, etc, etc, etc, basically every other kind of Raid damage, would also trigger the effect and thus be considered "Attacks done to you"? Obvisously "Attacks done to you" is different from "Chance in damage taken", but since I have no acess to test it myself I would like to know if any of you guys have any info or toughts about this, 'cause if the "Attacks done to you" translates to be close to "Chance in damage taken", I would like to see what you guys think bout this talent in a PvE environment as a passive proc-based buff to increase our DPS output, seen that most of the fights you will be taking some sort of damage someway.
I wonder, people need to see the big picture. Why the totem wrath of air becomes 10% haste for spells?? Because it is the resto shaman who needs it and he gets the weapon enchant to increase his healing and replacing the old effect. If it brings benefits to elemental shaman, that is great, because we can use their buffs too. So no point in complaining. (don´t even know if it is raid wide, if it is, better yet).
We in other hand give a 3% hit for everyone in the raid, that is huge and it is not bound by yards, it is a boss debuff.
5% crit to our own party is good enough, mainly if it adds 20% haste (with shaman totem, it becomes even stronger).
About the paladin aura discussion, those aura effects are from various auras, right?? It is pretty insane to compare many auras against one aura. Either way, I like ours (5%) crit and the improved effect (20% haste) more.
Edit: Shaman Wind Fury totem is a 20% haste (possibly as proc as it is today?), and if so, our very talent just explains how the proc on WF works, since it is a talent and need futher description. 20% haste melee x 20% haste spells, that is what you should compare. About aura x totem (5% crit x 10% haste, crit is more expensive, on the expansion will be yet more expensive).
With Improved Faerie Fire now giving +3% spell it- could it be that Balance of Power is the place to cut some points for the new PvE talents as you get better gear? Shadowpriests currently move talent points around as they gear up, as there's a large amount of +hit on their Tier set. With us getting 7% + spell hit from talents (quite a bit more than other classes in WotLK), it seems like it could be an easy place to trim points.
With Improved Faerie Fire now giving +3% spell it- could it be that Balance of Power is the place to cut some points for the new PvE talents as you get better gear? Shadowpriests currently move talent points around as they gear up, as there's a large amount of +hit on their Tier set. With us getting 7% + spell hit from talents (quite a bit more than other classes in WotLK), it seems like it could be an easy place to trim points.
I would think we could get more out of our gear by keeping those points in BoP. With the new itemization coming, there's no indication where casters are going to be expected to get their spell hit from. It's possible that accessories/trinkets and gemming will be the place to get spell hit, so they can make gear that both healers and dps casters will want in other slots.
Also: If you've kept up with the changes other classes are getting, ALL of the huge personal spell hit talents have taken a significant hit, and it's going to make IFF extremely important for raids. No single debuff provides more raid wide benefit than IFF at this point, assuming every caster is gearing around it. (It also means we as moonkin have to be even BETTER at staying out of the fire )
Remember that the hit rating to hit% ratio is going to change while levelling up to 80, as it did from 60 to 70. The fact that you can hit the cap with a margin today doesn't mean that you'll be able to at level 80, and that's without even considering the gear changes that might happen. I'll most certainly keep both BoP and iFF.
Thoughts and notes after doing a majority of the quests in Borean Tundra, in no particular order:
Moonkin Form mana on crit is currently not chance based. You crit, you get 2%.
Hurricane can crit now(No mana back from the crits via moonkin).
Brambles getting nerfed again pretty much makes it garbage again. 15% extra damage on trees once every 3 minutes isn't worth the points. The daze has been shifted from thorns to barkskin, and with only a 15% chance to daze you can hardly rely on even getting 1 daze for the whole duration. 75% damage on thorns is only the base damage. Base damage you say? That's right, thorns have roughly 7% damage contribution from spellpower. With 1260 spellpower, my thorns reflect 113 or so damage. Currently this is based on the spellpower of the person who has the buff though...
Starfall is way too weak. It still only hits 2 targets at a time, but without ANY contribution from spell damage, you're looking at an uncontrolled aggrobreaking 240 dps for 10 seconds. Hardly what I expect a last tier talent to be. I haven't been this underwhelmed since Force of Nature.
Speaking of Force of Nature, two words: Pet Bar.
Typhoon knockback is pretty funny to see against those crypt hunters. As for the PvP interrupt we've all been looking for... this isn't really it, but it's not too bad either. (It also looks like a tidal wave right now). The problem with it right now is regardless of if they are 1 yard from you or 20 yards from you, the damage+knockback is applied AFTER the typhoon dissapears. The travel time is similar to wrath, so if you see someone casting a flash heal and you hit typhoon 0.001 nanoseconds later, they'll still get it off. It really pales in comparison to the Shaman Thunderstorm however(20 yard pushback with ~10 yard height as opposed to 5 yard pushback with ~1 yard height.)
Moon and Earth is terrible for a 5 point talent. Yeah you can get away with fewer points, but I don't like the idea of a 10th tier talent being far outclassed by many tier 1, tier 2, or base class abliities.
Eclipse is also pretty lousy. With a 25% uptime, you're only looking at a best case 2.5% dps increase. If they combined these two talents together, it'd be a much more reasonable tier 9/10 talent.
Owlkin Frenzy seems good for grinding and PVP.
Omen of Clarity currently only proccing off moonfire for balance spells.
Improved Moonkin is also pretty dissapointing with the 30 second cooldown. However, one idea I'd like to see would be for the improved moonkin buff to also have the effect give a 20% discount to spells - in other words, an uncontrollable power infusion that activates on crit.
Even with mana on crit, after trying several specs that cut out one or more of the mana regen/conversation talents(moonglow,dreamstate,intensity), I found mana to be a pretty big issue.
Overall extremely pleased as a vast majority of the issues plagueing us currently are taken care of. However, most of the new talents are pretty dissapointing in their current form, but hopefully these will be balanced out before the beta ends.
As for Retribution Aura, what I listed was the Aura fully talented. This requires Sanctified Retribution and Swift Retribution (tier 5 and tier 9 talent, respectively), but it is a single Aura.
I consider it is expensive, but since it is a chance on proc, you can even work with a 1 point on Earth and Moon if you may... The real question is why do we want more than 6%?? I mean, lunar guidance was changed from 25% to 12%, divine spirit from 10% to 6%, I think the 6% is to keep in line with the new spell power x talents convertions to keep at the level they want. But I will say I am not paying much attention to the other classes, so you may show me that some buffs from others classes in a similar fashion didn´t take the nerf bat on their %.
Thoughts and notes after doing a majority of the quests in Borean Tundra, in no particular order: ...
Thanks a lot for the feedback Saraya.
Looks like a lot of the issues affecting the spec have been identified properly, they just need to fine tune everything a little better. I hope you inundate them with feedback over and over till they get the little things adjusted.
I am very happy to see moonkin form crit for mana always happens. That makes it extremely powerful, and turns crit into one of our strongest stats.
My biggest concern is that Typhoon/Starfall will be too weak. I want our signature spells to be powerful and iconic this time. People know what trees mean, but they don't really have too much respect for them.
Typhoon obviously isn't going to be too overwhelming because it's on such a short cooldown, but that travel time issue seems to severely limit its usage. (While the very short distance knockback accentuates its' value as an actual aoe dps spell.)
Starfall really seems like it's going to be a pvp talent, as almost every other 51 point talent seems to be (Even the prot warrior talent is more useful in PVP than anywhere else!). Of course, with it being dispellable and spell steallable, it may end up pretty worthless there too.
Brambles getting nerfed again pretty much makes it garbage again. 15% extra damage on trees once every 3 minutes isn't worth the points. The daze has been shifted from thorns to barkskin, and with only a 15% chance to daze you can hardly rely on even getting 1 daze for the whole duration. 75% damage on thorns is only the base damage. Base damage you say? That's right, thorns have roughly 7% damage contribution from spellpower. With 1260 spellpower, my thorns reflect 113 or so damage.
Thanks for keeping us updated, Saraya, even if this all sounds a bit like a letdown right now.
As for Thorns: I assume you're using rank 7. According to Wowhead, rank 8 has triple the base damage of rank 7. That means that at level 80, with ~1500 spell damage (conservative guess), it should reflect about 236 damage. I hope they fix it so that it uses your own spell damage and not the target's.
In that case, it would probably in the same order of magnitude as Improved Retribution aura, depending on how that scales with spell damage (level 80 Improved Retribution would be ~170 damage returned), especially since moonkins will probably carry more spell damage than ret paladins.
Ret paladins do not use Retribution Aura, prot paladins do. They currently wear about 500 spell damage in sunwell.
The Washington Post helps perpetuate a common and pernicious misreading of the decision, referring to "the Supreme Court’s judgment that corporations have the same rights as people when it comes to political speech." What the Supreme Court actually said is that people do not lose their free speech rights when they organize as corporations, including nonprofit interest groups as well as businesses.
Brambles 75% is the equivalent of 782 spell power for thorns damage, an increase of 54 damage. Not the must have it seemed to be before the daze function was changed to barkskin, making it druid only, and the rank was much higher although without the scaling factor.
# Windfury Totem is now a flat 20% melee haste totem. All ranks have been modified.
# Windwall Totem has been removed.
# Wrath of Air is now a flat 10% spell haste totem.
And we thought 20% haste when you crit was awsome.. my god... shamans with raid wide +10% spell haste totem that works at all times and will stack with our 20% conditional haste. Add ret pallies +3 melee and spell haste aura too.
They are really forcing the shunned builds that are not common now (ret, moonkin and to lesser degree elemental), to be present in raids, or the raid will suffer damage wise....
Apaine: Do we know whether or not Wrath of Air Totem stacks with the improved Aura? I was under the impression that, currently, multiple Haste buffs from non-personal sources don't stack.
Well, if would make no sense for them not stacking.
Think about it for a second - Pally ret aura gives 3% haste. Has to be specced 40+ points to obtain it.
Ele shaman's wrath of Air is obtainable baseline. Any shaman can plop it down.
Moonkin aura requires 40+ points into balance as well.
So if they don't stack, and totems (and auras) are raid wide, ret pally aura would have no effect on spellcasters, and moonkin's aura would only have minimal effect, 20% haste on crit, and 10% haste otherwise sounds much less sweet than 10% haste all the time and 30% haste on crit. hell, even if they'd make them stack multiplicatively instead of additively it would still be better than if they'd not stack at all.
In BC there weren't many +haste buffs attainable from non-personal sources, so current game mechanics might no longer apply.
Ok, apparently starfall will have more than 1 rank, they just forgot to add it to the trainer. That's why the damage sucks so much right now. I'll reserve judgement about it after getting the new ranks.
Soultrigger: 6% is a good number, the problem is it just costs too many points, and/or it is too deep in the tree. It's not like it's a raid wide 6%, it's for balance druids, elemental shaman, and arcane mages only. Compare it to shadow weaving or misery, and it just seems out of place for a tier 10 talent.
Erdluf: Treants are back to a 3 minute cooldown... so yeah.
Ulthwithian: I'll make a note of checking the haste stacking whenever I can. Improved Moonkin Aura is worthless for leveling so I'd have to have my hearthstone ready. I really don't imagine them not stacking though.
Saraya, were you able to group with anyone to test the effects in a party setting? Mainly wondering if you had a chance to test the proc rates of haste and mana regen when other people were getting the impMKA. Also thinking that while Earth and moon looks bad at the moment the main benefit is the group buff provided while raiding and doing long fights.
From a soloing/grinding perspective it's a little disappointing that the AP bonus and the melee for mana is removed completely. It was useful for two reasons: mana efficiency (offset nicely by the crit regen instead) and the "oh crap I screwed up" pull where you wind up OOM and unable to even go bear or cat. Admittedly the latter situations were rare but it means a bad pull may be completely unrecoverable where in the past you could at least melee back enough mana for an entangling roots or a hibernate.
From a raiding perspective the mana regen from crit seems a great change. It strikes me that there'll be a high crit caster group eg: Moonkin, Ele Shaman and Mages/Warlocks and the Shadow priests will be moved to a caster group that is less reliant on crit, potentially the healing group. It looks like Blizzard is trying to spread out the group mana regen roles and reduce the likelihood of a single class and spec being stacked to the exclusion of all others.
6% is a good number, the problem is it just costs too many points, and/or it is too deep in the tree. It's not like it's a raid wide 6%, it's for balance druids, elemental shaman, and arcane mages only. Compare it to shadow weaving or misery, and it just seems out of place for a tier 10 talent.
Was it tested on stacking with warlock's Curse of Elements?
Another thought, will the nature damage component of Earth and Moon work with hunter stings and rogue poisons? If so it's probably better than first glance.
07/19/08, 11:31 AM
)
Similar Threads
