If anyone in beta could do the above test to find out the GCD under NG (maybe with and without haste rating), it would clear up a lot confusion.
If someone is doing the test then could you do it with wrath and another 1.5s spell such as entangling roots. The patch note states wrath is a special case on the NG proc so I'm only expecting it to get to/below 1 second at the moment.
Then why has judgement never had a GCD till now? Certainly that it has a CD makes it less susceptible to abuse, but claiming there's a server-side hard cap on time between activating abilities doesn't make sense. Trinkets, and abilities such as Icy Veins, and Potions do not inflict a GCD either, allowing you to macro them all at once in addition to a spell. If it was a server issue, all of these things should inflict a GCD as well.
I DO buy the idea that there was policy in place not to allow it to go below 1.0 seconds to avoid spamming, but there are certainly better ways to avoid that: Make sure there's no way to reduce it to 0 seconds on instant cast, no CD spells.
EDIT: Yea I read the post over again and it doesn't mention the GCD. It'd be just as easy to test this with the resto talent as NG (Or both, they could work differently).
Or perhaps there was a flag for certain spells which made them not incur a GCD for gameplay reasons. Just because some spells don't get one doesn't mean others can be brought to that level. Testing showed that for spells that incurred a GCD already the GCD could not be reduced below 1.0s, not that all spells have a GCD of 1.0s.
But on the same token, there's no real reason for this rule to be set in stone either, if there's a gameplay reason for it to be changed.
Certainly you'd have to agree that the wording of the patch/talent is horribly misleading, in addition to being relatively worthless outside a solo grinding/pvp situation, if the GCD is still stuck at 1.0 seconds?
But on the same token, there's no real reason for this rule to be set in stone either, if there's a gameplay reason for it to be changed.
Certainly you'd have to agree that the wording of the patch/talent is horribly misleading, in addition to being relatively worthless outside a solo grinding/pvp situation, if the GCD is still stuck at 1.0 seconds?
It's not worthless. Assuming you have less than 50% haste (which is a pretty reasonable assumption, as at level 70 you need 788 haste rating to achieve that), you still gain a benefit from NG procs, bringing the GCD down to 1.0s and cast time to less than that. You just gain less benefit from haste as your crit rate goes up.
Since you are the only beta tester I "know", would you mind to send a suggestion in game to remove shapeshift GCD? It is not a big deal, but we would be able to access many skills instantly trough macros as others classes can. (As far as I remember warriors dont have gcd on stance dances and so on).
I'm curious as to what other raiding moonkins will use as a lvl 80 raiding spec. I myself tend to be doing something along. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Since you are the only beta tester I "know", would you mind to send a suggestion in game to remove shapeshift GCD? It is not a big deal, but we would be able to access many skills instantly trough macros as others classes can. (As far as I remember warriors dont have gcd on stance dances and so on).
We already have shapeshift GCD removed anyway for any form where it matters heavily: casting a feral ability in caster form puts you in the right form automagically. Yeah, it'd be nice to macro /cast Moonkin Form /cast Starfire, or some such, but it's really not necessary.
There is not a GCD on shift. There is a Client side cooldown after shifting, to prevent unwanted dbl shifts, but it can be bypassed with macros.
This isn't true, there is no GCD shifting out of form but there is when shifting in. You can test this by shifting into bear/cat and spamming an ability (not prowl) and checking the error messages in the combat log. On live;
Maithril casts Dire Bear Form
Maithril gains Dire Bear Form
Maithril's Demoralizing Roar failed. (Not yet recovered)
Maithril's Demoralizing Roar failed. (Not yet recovered)
Maithril's Demoralizing Roar failed. (Not yet recovered)
Maithril's Demoralizing Roar failed. (Not enough rage)
If you meant this is different on Wotlk beta I apologise. However, personally I feel it is fine with the gcd on entering forms.
I'm curious as to what other raiding moonkins will use as a lvl 80 raiding spec. I myself tend to be doing something along. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
55/0/16 I'd probably take out 1 point of earth and moon, and balance of power for intensity if the hit cap is the rumoured 9%.
Pretty silly that the first point in earth and moon is so much more valuable than the last.
You crit with a wrath and eclipse proc's giving you 10% starfire crit for 30 seconds.
You crit with starfire and eclipse proc's giving you 10% wrath damage for 30 seconds.
You crit with a wrath but on cooldown with wrath procs.
-or-
You crit with a wrath and eclipse proc's giving you 10% starfire crit for 30 seconds.
You crit with starfire but on cooldown with eclipse procs.
Does one proc put both proc's on cooldown?
Yes, I believe so. I generally open with starfire and then spam wrath, and while I've seen one or the other buffs up, I don't ever recall seeing both.
This isn't true, there is no GCD shifting out of form but there is when shifting in. You can test this by shifting into bear/cat and spamming an ability (not prowl) and checking the error messages in the combat log. On live;
Maithril casts Dire Bear Form
Maithril gains Dire Bear Form
Maithril's Demoralizing Roar failed. (Not yet recovered)
Maithril's Demoralizing Roar failed. (Not yet recovered)
Maithril's Demoralizing Roar failed. (Not yet recovered)
Maithril's Demoralizing Roar failed. (Not enough rage)
If you meant this is different on Wotlk beta I apologise. However, personally I feel it is fine with the gcd on entering forms.
That about sums it up, even though I play balance now, it always bothered me (in pvp, of course) that I can´t use an instant bash, I need to wait the gcd to go to bear form and then use the bash skill. It would add to our playability. As a warrior can be in battle, hit a macro, enter berserker (without gcd), use ww and go back to battle stance. We already pay 500+ mana for that stun, don´t see the need for "class balance" to incur a gcd upon shapeshift.
That about sums it up, even though I play balance now, it always bothered me (in pvp, of course) that I can´t use an instant bash, I need to wait the gcd to go to bear form and then use the bash skill. It would add to our playability. As a warrior can be in battle, hit a macro, enter berserker (without gcd), use ww and go back to battle stance. We already pay 500+ mana for that stun, don´t see the need for "class balance" to incur a gcd upon shapeshift.
Well I think its silly to compare classes like that, and 'stance shifting' would require less action than 'role switching' into a bear. I'm sure they've considered it at some point but I think with the amount of time we can lock someone out with cyclone getting an even easier bash could be troublesome.
Assuming we a have good mana ragen in wotlk and that we can leave out Intensity to get some more talents in the balance tree.... I was wondering if spirit is going to be a worthless stat for a Moonkin, which would be a pity as i think our leather gear is going to be packed with spirit
Another question about Improved Moonkin aura: Do we know when the cooldown starts? Is it right after it procs or after the buff runs out? I would assume the former, but confirmation would be nice.
1) Stacking of Shaman Totem and Improved Moonkin Aura
Yes, it stacks! Starfire:
2.84 base cast
2.58 totem only
2.37 aura only
2.15 totem + aura
1.79 totem + aura + ng
This is a relief, but the 30 second cooldown is still too long.
2) Stacking of Curse of Elements and E&M
It's really hard to test this due to the spell's initial variance. However, I'm not sure why I wanted to test this since there's never been a stacking problem with this.
3) Hit rate conversion
102 hit rate at level 73 is 5.3% for melee, and 6.63% for spells, so they're still on different coefficients.
4) Coefficient of Starfall and Typhoon:
These spells are currently bugged and do not have additional ranks on trainers, and thus have a very harsh downranking penalty.
5) NG + wrath + haste?
Looks like GCD is capped at 1 second. Via the script that Roywyn posted, it returned 1. A visual check from Quartz agrees with it; the cast time is still faster than the GCD(but 1 second wraths aren't so bad either). This only applies to wrath. Cyclone, roots, healing etc still have the usual cooldown.
6) Master Shapeshifter - spellpower or overall damage modifier?
It's an overall damage modifier for 4% over all damage on top of every other mod as far as I can tell. It's an aura type buff that you get when you shift into any form.
[5] means no wrath spam as all the haste that will be flying around will be worthless on natures grace, so isn't really useful even as a mana dump. Starfire spam still.
5) NG + wrath + haste?
Looks like GCD is capped at 1 second. Via the script that Roywyn posted, it returned 1. A visual check from Quartz agrees with it; the cast time is still faster than the GCD(but 1 second wraths aren't so bad either). This only applies to wrath. Cyclone, roots, healing etc still have the usual cooldown.
This is frustrating just based on the wording, and certainly puts a damper in the ability of wrath to scale with your gear properly. The patch note was definitely misleading. Oh well, false hopes dashed, but still better than what it was! As Adoriele was saying, it makes for a weird relationship between haste and crit when it comes to wrath spam. Of course with the huge number of passive/consistent haste buffs that seem to be flying around, the value of haste on our gear is going to be significantly less anyway (Let alone gemming for it).
Originally Posted by Saraya
6) Master Shapeshifter - spellpower or overall damage modifier?
It's an overall damage modifier for 4% over all damage on top of every other mod as far as I can tell. It's an aura type buff that you get when you shift into any form.
This is amazing, and a mandatory talent. 4% increased scaling on top of one of the best scaling nukes (and our Dots!) in the game is awesome; this is the confirmation to me that our talents are right on track to put us where we should be.
I still believe eclipse needs some adjustment, just due to how high in the tree it is; but what we currently have between E&M, Mana on crit, IMA, Master Shapeshifter, and our aoe ability is enough to leave me thrilled for wotlk raiding.
This is amazing, and a mandatory talent. 4% increased scaling on top of one of the best scaling nukes (and our Dots!) in the game is awesome, that's the confirmation to me that our talents are right on track to put us where we should be. I still believe eclipse needs some adjustment, just due to how high in the tree it is; however this alone is enough to leave me satisfied with what they've done.
I really would like them to do something with eclipse, it really isn't worth it at the moment, especially with Saraya's [5] test. If you accidently get the proc on a starfire when it comes of cooldown, you get the 10% damage to wrath and its not really spammable if its locked to one second after a crit/bloodlust/iMA. We can't really spell rotate if we have so many conditions which prevent us casting wrath.
Its not even getting included in PvP builds for me as theres a multitude of other talents that you need to swap points into which are much better: Celestrial Focus, Control of Nature, Dreamstate, Balance of Power, Owlkin Frenzy.
1) Stacking of Shaman Totem and Improved Moonkin Aura
Yes, it stacks! Starfire:
2.84 base cast
2.58 totem only
2.37 aura only
2.15 totem + aura
1.79 totem + aura + ng
This is a relief, but the 30 second cooldown is still too long.
2) Stacking of Curse of Elements and E&M
It's really hard to test this due to the spell's initial variance. However, I'm not sure why I wanted to test this since there's never been a stacking problem with this.
3) Hit rate conversion
102 hit rate at level 73 is 5.3% for melee, and 6.63% for spells, so they're still on different coefficients.
4) Coefficient of Starfall and Typhoon:
These spells are currently bugged and do not have additional ranks on trainers, and thus have a very harsh downranking penalty.
5) NG + wrath + haste?
Looks like GCD is capped at 1 second. Via the script that Roywyn posted, it returned 1. A visual check from Quartz agrees with it; the cast time is still faster than the GCD(but 1 second wraths aren't so bad either). This only applies to wrath. Cyclone, roots, healing etc still have the usual cooldown.
6) Master Shapeshifter - spellpower or overall damage modifier?
It's an overall damage modifier for 4% over all damage on top of every other mod as far as I can tell. It's an aura type buff that you get when you shift into any form.
Really awesome info, Saraya, thank you for the testing. Your numbers tell me that the totem and aura stack the same way that Lust does, i.e. multiplicatively, which is awesome. Napkin math says that, even without haste, getting ToW, iMKA, Lust, Ret aura, and NG up at the same time will drop SF to a 1.41s cast time which is more awesome than I think I'm allowed to experience. Not sure iMKA and Lust will stack, though, but I'm assuming it will as I'm guessing they're counting auras as separate from targettable spells like Lust and PI.
NG/Wrath/Haste works like I expected, so haste will devalue as your crit rate rises, but that's probably okay, depending on how much crit's value rises given the Oath and iMKA. And anything else crit-based they decide to throw at us.
So improved moonkin aura and totem would fit in (well 2% wasted) without haste on gear and wouldn't impact wrath casting too badly. During iMA downtime wrath spam would be fine. Hopefully they are willing to do this to give it some use in PvE.
Bloodlust would mean starfire spam, different optimal rotations for different procs/buffs on.
2) Stacking of Curse of Elements and E&M
It's really hard to test this due to the spell's initial variance. However, I'm not sure why I wanted to test this since there's never been a stacking problem with this.
Thanks Saraya.
You should be able to get precise values on Arcane buffs by looking at Moonfire DoT, which has no (base) variance. In fact you should be able to tell if stacking is a multiplier 1.13*1.06 or additive 1.0+.13+.06.
Note that in live, Improved Moonfire and Moonfury are additive.
The other thing thats bugging me is the fact that we have a few talents where their 1st point is worth much more than their last.
Improved Moonkin Form (1)(3): 1st Point gives the full effect, 2nd and 3rd decreases time to proc after it comes off cooldown.
Eclipse (1)(3): Again 1st point provides the full benefit, the 2nd and 3rd only decrease the time it takes to proc after a 2 minute cooldown.
Earth and Moon (1)(5): Its only a 3 stack with a 12 second duration, you need one proc in a 12 second duration. It should be easy to keep the buff up with 2/3 points reasonably easy. 4th and 5th points only making it take less time to get initial stack.
Maybe the duration of Improved Moonkin Aura should be dependant on the points spent in it. Maybe the cooldown of Eclipse could go 2min 1.30min 1min with 1/2/3 points in it. Earth and Moon, stacks up to 1/2/3/4/5.
You should be able to get precise values on Arcane buffs by looking at Moonfire DoT, which has no (base) variance. In fact you should be able to tell if stacking is a multiplier 1.13*1.06 or additive 1.0+.13+.06.
Note that in live, Improved Moonfire and Moonfury are additive.
Currently multiple shadow debuffs (Shadow weaving + ISB + CoE) are additive, not multiplicative. I would imagine it works the same unless there's been a change in the way damage is calculated.
It would be interesting to see a higher cast time wrath at the higher rank. The real benefit of a 2.5 second base cast wrath (I couldn't see them making it an odd number) would be that at high values of haste you'd be casting the same number of spells with a higher damage coefficient.
07/23/08, 3:06 PM
Similar Threads
