As for spell weaving, should still be casting starfire during high haste times without eclipse. [...] I'm sure with bloodlust, WoA totem, some haste gear, imp moonkin aura and some nature's grace procs a starfire will be higher dps than the capped wrath.
Quick math for high-haste.
Assume 2k spellpower
Non-crit damage before general damage multipliers (E&M, CoE Moonfury, etc.)
So unless you just crit a moonfire while moving and have time to react to the natures grace proc and have 50% haste then its not worth it . 78% isn't even optainable and reacting to nature's grace proc isn't optimal unless moving. So yeah basically useless spell.
Moonfire - Once every 12s
Faerie Fire - Once every 40s
Wrath - Filler
Around 90% of the time spamming wrath.. playing catch the stormstrike.. fun fun.
I thought typhoon was an aoe effect in line with arcane explosion, but it is more like a cone of cold. :/ Either way, I liked the starfall animation, typhoon is ok, but didn´t like how it actually works (CoC style, with delay on knockback)...
I thought typhoon was an aoe effect in line with arcane explosion, but it is more like a cone of cold. :/ Either way, I liked the starfall animation, typhoon is ok, but didn´t like how it actually works (CoC style, with delay on knockback)...
I started to feel like you guys, that our very druidic nature is losing to the shamanistic one.
Delay on knockback is likely due to latency, though possibly not. The implementation is different from what I expected as well, though I was thinking something along the lines of a Hurricane-sized effect that would slowly move, sort of like the whirlwind in the FLK encounter. I agree, Starfall's animation is HOT, though, and it's good to see the implementation, i.e. 2 major stars per sec with random targets in the area for 10 sec, with the aoe splash for each.
And yeah, Thunderstorm makes me glad I have an up-and-coming shaman I'll be able to play around with, though I'll probably keep her Resto for raids.
[Apply Aura]: Mod Dmg % Taken (Arcane, Fire, Frost, Nature, Shadow)
Value: 10
CoE is applying the 10% damage debuff to nature currently on the beta which will further increase the use of poisons. Hopefully the poison changes go in with the next beta push.
This was from rogue forums. Who knows what you can learn from the guys that do it from behind. Screw their poisons, but if what they say about CoE is true... then wrath just got 10% damage boost. Starfire will be relegated to mana starved nuking only I think, and we'll be using wrath all the time the way things look.
Screw their poisons, but if what they say about CoE is true... then wrath just got 10% damage boost. Starfire will be relegated to mana starved nuking only I think, and we'll be using wrath all the time the way things look.
You wouldn't even use Starfire when mana starved. As your crit rate goes up wrath edges closer and closer to Starfire for DPM, and a R11 wrath (Which is apparently level 75 so should barely suffer from the new downranking pentaly) is higher DPM while still being higher DPS. This is a bit disappointing to me (As I love Starfire for aesthetics and the fact that it hits instantly as opposed to having missile travel time), but they'd have to give an enormous Starfire coefficient buff/cast time reduction for it to be competitive.
I think there are 2 ways they could still encourage Starfire use.
1. Change eclipse to something like the pvp set bonus.
2. Change Earth & Moon so that wrath stacks the nature vulnerability and starfire stacks the arcane vulnerability so we will weave them both.
Hopefully they'll do something to make SF look better. From SF8 to SF10 the base, untalented DPM drops from 1.6 to 1.3. Considering that other changes (NG, MK mana, CoE, even Eclipse) help Wrath much more than they help SF, SF just gets left behind.
I really don't want to complain too much about (Wr > SF). I'm afraid the result will be a nerf to Wrath (or an across the board nerf to MK mana).
This was from rogue forums. Who knows what you can learn from the guys that do it from behind. Screw their poisons, but if what they say about CoE is true... then wrath just got 10% damage boost. Starfire will be relegated to mana starved nuking only I think, and we'll be using wrath all the time the way things look.
It was actually posted in this thread first one or two pages back, but I have an interest in both classes and it hadn't been posted in there.
And yes, I don't mind wrath being better than starfire either, just the uselessness of eclipse.
2. Change Earth & Moon so that wrath stacks the nature vulnerability and starfire stacks the arcane vulnerability so we will weave them both.
I could just see that meaning the arcane vulnerability would never be stacked up. A considerable dps drop for 6% damage onto moonfire and some percentage of arcane mages damage, if there was one.
I would much prefer the wrath proc->next starfire boosted ideas I proposed earlier to vary cycles a bit.
I could just see that meaning the arcane vulnerability would never be stacked up. A considerable dps drop for 6% damage onto moonfire and some percentage of arcane mages damage, if there was one.
I would much prefer the wrath proc->next starfire boosted ideas I proposed earlier to vary cycles a bit.
Well an additional tweak could be:
- wrath stacks the arcane debuff
- starfire stacks the nature debuff
This just in. With the new build, Improved Scorch now puts a debuff on the target that (when fully stacked) increases all Fire, Frost, and Arcane damage taken by the target by 10%.
That should shift the numbers for Starfire vs. Wrath.
This just in. With the new build, Improved Scorch now puts a debuff on the target that (when fully stacked) increases all Fire, Frost, and Arcane damage taken by the target by 10%.
That should shift the numbers for Starfire vs. Wrath.
# Glyph of Starfire - Your Starfall ability increases the duration of your Moonfire effect on the target by 3 sec.
# Glyph of Insect Swarm - Increases the damage of your Insect Swarm ability by 30% but it no longer affects your victim's chance to hit.
# Glyph of Hurricane - Your Hurricane ability now also slows the movement speed of its victims by -20%.
# Glyph of Starfall- Increases the duration of Starfall by 2 sec.
# Glyph of Wrath - Increases the chance you'll resist spell interruption when casting your Wrath spell by 50%.
# Glyph of Moonfire - Increases the periodic damage of your Moonfire ability by 75% but initial damage is decreased by -90%.
Assuming this should say Starfire (Being that it's the Starfire Glyph, there would be no point to Starfall refreshing moonfire, and there is an actual Starfall glyph.), this is more the thing that can shift Starfire dps to be greater than wrath. The Starfire Glyph combined with the periodic Moonfire one could mean an enormous dps shift. I can't even fathom how powerful that is (Mostly because I'm in Sunwell atm)
That's the type of glyph combination that changes EVERYTHING. Not having to reapply moonfire, with ticks that have -75%- scaling?!?
Insanity.
EDIT: When I think about it, if you have a lot of haste and NG procs, you can build up an enormous moonfire duration, and then switch to wrath till your moonfire duration gets low. Coiniciding almost perfectly with the Eclipse cooldown?
EDIT 2: Another thought is stacking trinkets/pots for your initial moonfire cast (Similar to old lifebloom rolling, or current earth shield stacking) and allowing Starfire to maintain extremely high periodic damage moonfires.
Perhaps Blizz knows what they're doing better than we thought.
One note about treants, if they are already attacking something and you tell them to attack someting else, only one of them actually will(The other two will stay on their current target until it dies, and then go help out)
Originally Posted by Adoriele
Delay on knockback is likely due to latency, though possibly not. The implementation is different from what I expected as well, though I was thinking something along the lines of a Hurricane-sized effect that would slowly move, sort of like the whirlwind in the FLK encounter. I agree, Starfall's animation is HOT, though, and it's good to see the implementation, i.e. 2 major stars per sec with random targets in the area for 10 sec, with the aoe splash for each.
The delay on knockback is because it applies it after the tidal wave graphic dissapears, not when you make contact. If you stand right next to a fallen log and cast it, it'll instantly hit everything 20 yards in front of you since the graphic will dissapear due to the log.
For starfall, there's no aoe splash, it's 2 major stars every second for 10 seconds, and then everything within 5 yards of you gets "minor" stars.
Maybe if you command the treants to attack 2 aditional mobs, we will get them attacking 3 splits targets?? If so, that could be cool for some pvp multiple targets dazing fun.
Edit: perhaps, then, Typhoon is just bugged for being an early implementation, did you report such behavior?
Even if nobody is going deep fire for raiding, you're going to have at least one mage spec in the 18 points to get it. I think it's safe to assume it being there for 25 man raids.
This is amazing, and a mandatory talent. 4% increased scaling on top of one of the best scaling nukes (and our Dots!) in the game is awesome; this is the confirmation to me that our talents are right on track to put us where we should be.
Only thing Erragel, is that Master Shapeshifter is not one of our talents, it's a restore talent, and the weakness of Eclipse is symptomatic of an early resto talent contributing more to balance than a 40 or 45pt talent in Eclipse and Earth and moon.
Originally Posted by erragal
I still believe eclipse needs some adjustment, just due to how high in the tree it is; but what we currently have between E&M, Mana on crit, IMA, Master Shapeshifter, and our aoe ability is enough to leave me thrilled for wotlk raiding.
Yeah, I agree, so many suggestions on how to improve this. The easiest off course is to lower the cooldown and extend the duration. Others could include weaving additions to Moonfire and Insect Swarm, like the Starfire Eclipse will auto refresh your Insect Swarm and the Wrath Eclipse will grant your Moonfire's a 20% mana reduction.
All of those together actually would bring it to the level it is.
Typhoon knockback should also be slow movement as well. Typhoon would be the knockback getting a 5-6 sec slow, atm Blastwave does get knockback also, and balance druids having some sort of slow effect no matter how restricted would be nice, Shaman got CC on top of slows, and Typhoon would be nice to stand out from Thunder and Blastwave differently. Would prefer it added to the talent as opposed to Glyphed in.
Starfire does gain on wrath DPS wise with higher spell damage, and alwas is better DPM, I think, although this would need more testing that, Wrath you would use for higher dps, and starfire on those mana intensive fights. I use them like this now anyway. Currently CoE is only arcane, so with it up, Starfire's DPS is better, but without it's wrath and if mana is not an issue I cast wrath till NG proc when I cast starfire:
Times you use Wrath:
Higher dps
on Starfire Eclipses
Build up quick E&M stacks
Times you use Starfire:
Higher Mana Efficiency
on Wrath Eclipses
On NG procs after a certain haste rating.
Sill iMkA needs a lower cooldown, Eclipse needs to become much better reduced to a 15 to 30 sec downtime. I prefer the idea of E&M stacking up to 9% for arcane but 6% for nature as opposed to having two seperate stacks based on whether you use wrath or starfire.
Glyph of Starfire is certainly more useful than that of wrath in pvE.
Only thing Erragel, is that Master Shapeshifter is not one of our talents, it's a restore talent, and the weakness of Eclipse is symptomatic of an early resto talent contributing more to balance than a 40 or 45pt talent in Eclipse and Earth and moon.
Almost every class has powerful talents in opposite trees (Look at the new improved scorch, the exact same number of points as MS, for an even stronger ability). Master Shapeshifter isn't a 'resto' talent. In fact it's least valuable for resto of every druid spec. This is a conscious design decision, not a flaw. Eclipse is certainly a bit weak, but that isn't caused by this.
Originally Posted by Cycloni
Starfire does gain on wrath DPS wise with higher spell damage, and alwas is better DPM, I think, although this would need more testing that, Wrath you would use for higher dps, and starfire on those mana intensive fights.
I don't even think you read Erdluf's chart at all. Or read the part where I ran the numbers at very high levels of spell damage and haste and came up with the same conclusions.
# Glyph of Starfire - Your Starfall ability increases the duration of your Moonfire effect on the target by 3 sec.
# Glyph of Insect Swarm - Increases the damage of your Insect Swarm ability by 30% but it no longer affects your victim's chance to hit.
# Glyph of Hurricane - Your Hurricane ability now also slows the movement speed of its victims by -20%.
# Glyph of Starfall- Increases the duration of Starfall by 2 sec.
# Glyph of Wrath - Increases the chance you'll resist spell interruption when casting your Wrath spell by 50%.
# Glyph of Moonfire - Increases the periodic damage of your Moonfire ability by 75% but initial damage is decreased by -90%.
Assuming this should say Starfire (Being that it's the Starfire Glyph, there would be no point to Starfall refreshing moonfire, and there is an actual Starfall glyph.), this is more the thing that can shift Starfire dps to be greater than wrath. The Starfire Glyph combined with the periodic Moonfire one could mean an enormous dps shift. I can't even fathom how powerful that is (Mostly because I'm in Sunwell atm)
That's the type of glyph combination that changes EVERYTHING. Not having to reapply moonfire, with ticks that have -75%- scaling?!?
Insanity.
EDIT: When I think about it, if you have a lot of haste and NG procs, you can build up an enormous moonfire duration, and then switch to wrath till your moonfire duration gets low. Coiniciding almost perfectly with the Eclipse cooldown?
EDIT 2: Another thought is stacking trinkets/pots for your initial moonfire cast (Similar to old lifebloom rolling, or current earth shield stacking) and allowing Starfire to maintain extremely high periodic damage moonfires.
Perhaps Blizz knows what they're doing better than we thought.
Anyone knows if we even *can* combine the glyphs?
Starfire + Moonfire glyph sound sweet, since 3 sec extended moonfire duration corresponds to starfire cast time. So this would be our version of "keep the dot refreshed" the way deep affliction and deep destruction warlocks are getting.
Add moonfire glyph to that and it's crazy powerful. Issue is - aren't glyphs supposed to be applied on weapons? If so - then it is probably one per weapon.
EDIT: "Blizzard knows what they're doing better than we thought" - That's blasphemy! :P
Starfire + Moonfire glyph sound sweet, since 3 sec extended moonfire duration corresponds to starfire cast time. So this would be our version of "keep the dot refreshed" the way deep affliction and deep destruction warlocks are getting.
Add moonfire glyph to that and it's crazy powerful. Issue is - aren't glyphs supposed to be applied on weapons? If so - then it is probably one per weapon.
There are 6 Glyph Slots: 2 Greater, 2 Lesser, 2 Minor (Cosmetic). Nothing to do with weapons at all (You may be thinking of the DK weapon runes). So even if they're both greater Glyphs, it should be a viable combination!
Next set of calcs. These use
30% Insect Swarm Glyph
MF Glyph = -90% Direct damage, +75% DoT
13% CoE, Arcane & Nature
10% Scorch, Arcane only, 100% of the time
6% E&M, 100% of the time.
75% Brambles, for Roots
The old balance talents (Moonfury, WoC, Vengeance, ...)
No Eclipse
No nature-only buffs (Stormstrike)
Assume that SF glyph means SF every <12 seconds will maintain MF forever. Edit: this is stupid
4% Master Shapeshifter
2000 +spell
18% Crit in caster (27% Wr/SF in form)
18% Haste
Nature's Grace makes Wrath cast 1.0s
240 Mana back on crit
0 lag
IS7 = 3274 DPSC, 15.7 DPM
MF14 = 4293 DPSC 9.1 DPM
MF14 DoT = 441 DPS
Trinket for MF DoT adds about 0.125 DPS per point of trinket spellpower, so 200 +spell = 25 DPS.
ER8 = 3812 DPSC, 20.6 DPM (full duration)
Wr12 = 2802 DPS, 11.5 DPM
SF10 = 2460 DPS, 13.6 DPM
Simple Rotations:
MF Wr*9 = 2873 DPS
SF-spam, maintaining free MF DoT = 2901 DPS
Edit, the rest of this is also stupid
IS SF Wr*3 SF Wr*2 maintaining free MF DoT = 3092 DPS
Note that the last rotation would benefit from Eclipse, switching to the second-to-last rotation when Eclipse gives the 10% SF crit bonus.
Assume that SF glyph means SF every <12 seconds will maintain MF forever.
How on earth did you get that? The glyph text says that it only extends MF's DoT by 3 sec, not 12. You'll need to chain-cast SF to keep the MF DoT up, occasionally popping in an IS or Wrath or iFF.
My thought on that is we would assume sub-3.0 second Starfires, correct?
The more haste that you have, the more opportunity you'd GET to cast wrath. Wrath would scale with haste in a very weird way. You can build up an enormous duration Moonfire with NG procs/IMA procs. If you can average 2.0 second casts, then 60 seconds of Starfire gives you 30 seconds of Moonfire duration buffer, you can then cast Wrath for 30 seconds, and Switch to Starfire for 60 seconds again. If you can average 1.5 Second casts, then after 60 seconds you'd have 60 seconds of free Moonfire with which to cast wrath. So the more haste you have, the more you can cast wrath without losing your high DPS moonfire ticks.
EDIT: You might not want to just chain till it's stacked high, however. Eclipse makes everything really complicated and creates decisions on when to switch between nukes, and very heavy moonfire monitoring.
EDIT: This is under the assumption it can stack past its' max duration. We don't know that for sure, obviously.
You'd potentially need to be an Inscription prof to use a third Greater Glyph (They get an extra glyph slot, can't tell what type it is, however).
07/28/08, 8:54 AM
. 78% isn't even optainable and reacting to nature's grace proc isn't optimal unless moving. So yeah basically useless spell.
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