Panoramixe

I didnt bother trying to calculate lunar's guidance vs celestial focus.
It's about 7% more spellpower vs 3% more haste, probably in favour of lunar's guidance I guess.

 

Dioneirra

Even after the revamp of the balance tree (which does quite work at the lower tiers, especially through adding additional synergy effects), the end tier (9-11) still seems weak and in need of additional attention. Earth and Moon in its actual version doesn't work as talent, either it will become a 2 or 3 point investment for starters, or will be skipped completly in favor of other talents (although this is only likely for '25 only' raiders). Most likely a second effect should be added here (just like it was in it early versions). Starfall continues to be a somewhat situational spell, at least for a 51-pointer, as is Thypoon right now. That leaves Eclipse, a somewhat solid, even though strange to play talent, and Gale Wind, another variation of 'only rarely useful'. I'm missing some defining ability in deep balance yet, Starfall could be this, but right now it's quite AE oriented, and looses a lot in single enemy combat. Maybe if they fix the 'not the whole 20 stars if only 1 enemy present' problem? Could work.

The changes in existing talents vary in usefulness. Improved Faerie Fire once again will be skipped whenever possible, the former version (combining all to hit effects) was so much needed for a strenghted raid presence, i don't understand why they keep on repeating old mistakes. The same seems true for Improved Moonkin Aura. 1% raidhaste per talent point. This is weak in two ways. First, it doesn't fit the moonkin theme (that is, being somewhat random, relying on procs and effects). Second, it makes the differentiation between melee and caster obsolete, which feels weird. As a big owl in touch with Elune i don't care about melee, i am a magic creature. So are my abilities and powers. The old version, a strong, but very random proc, was so much more fitting. The additional 2% miss on insect swarm are nice, and so is Improved Insect Swarm (escpecially because it affect both DoTs, so i can still decide which to prefer). Celestial Focus right now seems to weak, the stun always was to random, and 1% personal haste per talent point, i'm sure i will find a better place to spend tese points, the tree has grown quite a bit.

The new Hybrid Talents are a welcome addition. Both Genesis and Nature's Splendor sounds like small, but useful talents, as do the additions of restoration effects to Nature's Majesty. Actually i do think that we could see some true Hybrid druids in WotLK, the tools are there, and Tree Form has become significantly weaker with the last build.

What i would like to see in future builds is mainly a closer look at Vengeance. The placement/cost/effect ratio doesn't fit anymore after all these changes in comparable classes. A 3 pointer would be realistic in this position, or adding in bonus heal effects for Healing Touch, Regrowth and Nourish Crits (further supporting hybrid playing stlye). Celestial Focus, and deep balance also should be reviewed once more. I suppose that feral/balance synergys will never be available, so i will skip that. After all, they are offering the owls some grains, we should be happy for this.

 

• Vykromond

Genesis overall definitely seems like a resto druid talent, it's pretty terrible for moonkins. Here's my shot at a raid build: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...35213015111021

One point in Eclipse seems worthwhile. Gale Winds really comes into play on AoE fights; you could drop Typhoon and the tree mafia for Gale Winds.

What about Jersey? Mafioso, murderers, addicts, juvenile vagrants, Bon Jovi. Here they praise these felonious people. Blighted little Jersey: guns, hookers, Goombas, Atlantic City. "Come home, criminal miscreants" reads the tourism website. And here come the hucksters, racketeers, trannies, and every korrupt-cop. Jersey, news flash: Criminals rarely benefit children, businesses, or organizations.

 

Soultrigger

Just FYI:

 

Kathbrian

How does Blizzard deal with decimal durations? If they don't round up the first point in Nature's Splendor is totally useless, which would need to be addressed.

 

Panoramixe

I heard they give a minor tick at the end of the duration if it doesn't lead to a complete one.

 

• Hardane

Submitted for your approval, a baseline raiding build:

Baseline Moonkin Build

I only have two points in Nature's Splendor because I hesitate to think that Blizzard would round up in duration calculation. Then again, this or the talent could change. For now though, the two points add 2.4 seconds which is one tick to both IS and MF, no different from the one tick added by an increase of 3.6 seconds.

Nature's Focus taken for the sake of Wrath and CC pushback. If Moonfire/Starfire end up ahead of IS/Wrath and pushback avoidance ends up pointless, then some of these points could be put into Imp. MotW I guess? No other real place to put these points.

Celestial Focus' worth is suspect, but for now I'm leaving it at 3/3.

Other than that, these are the talents that I think are the "must-haves" for a moonkin, at least in 25man raids. This leaves 9 points to distribute for utility/DPS specialization. If there's no Shadow Priest? Pick up Imp. Faerie Fire. No Retadin? Pick up Imp. Moonkin Form. No Affliction Warlock of Unholy DK? Earth and Moon (2-3 points). Moonfire/Starfire prevail over IS/Wrath? Pick up Imp. Moonfire. AOE intensive fights? Gale Winds, Starfall, and possibly Typhoon. Or pick up Typhoon for some gimmicky "knockback required" fight. Depending on what gear ends up looking like, you could even swap Dreamstate for Intensity.

I don't think there will ever be a situation in a 25man where a moonkin will be required to bring all of these options to a raid. There may be a chance this could happen in a 10man (though I doubt it would be a regular occurrence). In the end, it'll just depend on what your raid needs and what the encounter demands.

 

Kathbrian

Moonfire will still be worth casting for the DPS, and I don't see how you could make a "must have" build and forget Balance of Power. Pushback avoidance has always been highly situational, there's no valid reason to believe it's going to be less so. Intensity scales much better than Dreamstate because of the regen change, and with the abundance of spirit spell power gear meant for restos, will likely dominate Dreamstate for mana regen. As it stands now, at 500 int, you only need 160 spirit for them to be equal.

Only having two points (assuming no rounding up) means Nature's Splendor will not affect Moonfire, because it ticks every three seconds.

I think this build is a better bare minimum Moonkin spec:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...05210005000000

 

Shuror

Unless the amount of Spirit from gear/buffs is near zero, Intensity will almost always be better than Dreamstate. This of course depends on the new modifier in the spirit formula, but I doubt it will change much. Celestial Focus will for sure be weaker than Balance of Power; I expect hit capping to be very hard without it, as reports have been incoming that the 17% spell miss chance isn't changing.

Owlkin Frenzy is not staple, it's an option for intensive AoE encounters. The proc rate will be too low otherwise.

Moonfire ticks every 3 seconds, so 2/3 Nature's Splendor will not work on it unless fractional ticks are implemented. Even if it does, I think the talent would be an average one. At least, Improved Moonfire is better and I still regard it as a must.

Furor is nice as a filler, but the fifth point is not required and not worth it.

 

Alerian

My spec concept for 3.0 at level 70 is: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...05213005000000, having the extra 5% haste via Celestial Focus and iMK Aura and 150 damage via Lunar Guidance are likely to be more worthwhile than an extra MF tick, not to mention that 3% of that extra haste will be raid-wide. Of course, this is all assuming that there are no additional talent changes, which is not really the case.

 

Boswell

Balance of Power isn't mandatory if you have the itemization to make up for it. Even right now, I can just as easily swap in pieces of gear with hit on it and still remain hit capped without putting points into Balance of Power. Even though you would be losing 4% hit, Misery/iFF will give you 3% hit. 1% isn't a huge loss or a big deal for freeing up 2 talent points.

I've read many many many many many balance druids always referring to pus hback as being insignificant and situational. From my raiding experience it's one of the most valuable talents you can have. Starfire is already a long cast time, getting constant push back is extremely inconvenient. (ie: like if you're trying to finish a cast before moving but you can't because you keep getting push back and then you end up moving without having to finish the cast).

When we discuss talents we can agree that we have to consider all levels of raiding including high end raiding. My point is there are still only a small handful of druids that play an active role in Kil'Jaden killing guilds. I'm not trying to be arrogant or elitist or anything like that at all but most of the druids that post about balance and raiding have little to no raid experience. Even though they still have the ability to theory craft just as well as any other druid out there, they still lack the first hand experience, and believe me, in Sunwell at least, push back protection would mean a huge deal.

 

• Hardane

I don't consider it a must-have because I suspect there will be enough Spell Hit Rating on gear to eventually remove the need for a Spell Hit talent, not to mention the presence of Imp. FF/Misery. You'd want to put points in it if you aren't at the cap, obviously, but if you can reach it with gear, then those points can go toward providing more utility. We'll see as more gear comes out though.

I acknowledge the fact that Intensity is (in all likelihood) superior to Dreamstate. Chalk it up to me still hoping they'll make it more appealing as it is 1. in the actual Balance tree and 2. further down than Intensity.

Mea culpa on the MF tick thing, not sure what I was smoking at the time.

I consider it a staple; if SWP is any indication, there will be lots of AoE encounters on the horizon. It still remains to be seen, however, so I'll just leave it at that.

 

Kathbrian

For Owlkin Frenzy to be of much use, the AoE would have to be fast paced, like Vael, which isn't likely to be the norm because of the mana it would take to heal. Point for point, Balance of Power is better than Celestial Focus for raiding, 2% haste vs. 4% spell hit/chance to be missed, it's a no brainer considering most raid AoEs are magic attacks. Capping early means you can spend less gear on +hit.

Stating that Sunwell is an indicator of what's to come is ridiculous. Sunwell was created with the live skills, spell costs, and strategies in mind, not the beta, and the changes are not small.

 

Dioneirra

But this also means, that it is actually not mandatory to field pushback resistance even in BC content. The progression curve in BC is leading (only counting 25 people raid instances) from Gruul/Maggi/SSC/TK, where there is almost no pushback influence at all, over to MH (again no real pushback, but quite some running) and BT (varying pushback intensity, especially annoying usually RoS P2 and Gorefiend) up to Sunwell (which i cannot judge, because we only farm trash there for now).

Depending on the development in raid progression in WotLK that could mean that at some point pushback resistance is something you spec for, but before this point it would be wasted. Because we still don't know much about this progression right now, i would judge talents like Owlkin Frenzy and Nature's Focus with care. Especially the low proc chance for Owlkin Frenzy is something i would not like to need relying upon. Right now, based on my raiding experience in BC as Moonkin, i don't plan to spec pushback resistance in the beginning, but will wait to evaluate the encounters i will face, and then might change my decision.

 

Boswell

Oh, of course I agree it's situational and unique to each encounter, but I'm saying you can't completely disregard it.

 

Erdluf

In BC, every talent point spent on balance personal DPS was worth something more than 1% to your total DPS. The bulk of the DPS talents are worth close to 2%, at least in common situations.

CF, Genesis and Improved Insect Swarm are certainly worth less than 1%/point. Furor isn't directly a DPS talent, but it is not going to be worth 1% DPS, except in the most mana-stressed situations.

I'm sure that end-game raiders will reach for every little boost to single-target DPS they can get. However the raid buffs are going to be more important, unless you can talk someone else into bringing them.

For questing, PvP, and 5-mans, utility talents (push-back, AoE, mana) are going to be a better choice.

 

Kathbrian

Any word on the survivability of trees against AoE?

 

Palendior

I see Omen of Clarity taken in a lot of Moonkin builds here, while still leaving either Intensity of Dreamstate out. This surprises me. I think OoC will be an amazing talent for resto druids. But not for a DPS spec. Here's why:

My main is a holy priest (alt druid just hit 70). As such, Holy Concentration is a staple talent and the Clearcasting it procs is essential for my mana regen as a holy priest. New Omen of Clarity is clearly going to work pretty much the same.

But for a DPSer, things are different than for a healer, and I don't think a Clearcasting based mana efficiency talent is the way to go for a DPS spec, unless your class is badly broken for mana and you are grasping for every mana talent you can get your hands on, no matter how it looks. Like the (relatively few) mages who have taken Arcane Concentration merely for saving the mana costs of the odd spell now and then. But I don't think you find any mages who would "freely" choose AC if they had other better mana regen options. Contrary to TBC mages however, Moonkin will have access to a whole range of different mana regen/efficiency talents. Dreamstate, Intensity and OoC being only some of them.

Here's why I am doubtful about choosing OoC for moonkins:

Clearcasting is super powerful if used as a tool for getting out of the 5 seconds rule and regen mana for X seconds. But healers have ways of doing this that not really a DPS'er has, assuming the DPS'er actually cares about his DPS. As a healer, when Clearcasting procs, I first stop casting my current spell and switch to casting my biggest and most expensive heal, stopcasting it if the healing isn't needed. That way I can stay out of the 5 seconds rule for a fairly long time. I can easily see OoC used similarly by Resto Druids in the future, even though druid healing is a bit more "stuck" continue healing than priests are, in order not to let LB stacks fall off, and due to the staple heals being instants rather than cast time ones. Anyway, while I thus regen, my fellow healers will need to cover for me slightly during this period, but that's the way healing works, healing "an adequate amount" is what you want to do, but for DPS you usually want maximum DPS, not "just about as much as is needed".

You don't really want to start stopcasting Starfire - not actually firing them off, just because OoC has procced. Your DPS would suffer quite badly if you tried to do what a healer does in the same situation.

So basically, Clearcasting is great for healers (especially spirit regen based ones, such as priests and druids) - not because the 100% saved on the one spell, but because it allows us to sneak out of the 5 seconds rule. And we can do so because stopcasting and switching to a different long-casting and expensive spell is a valid option for healers. A Moonkin taking OoC however, is unlikely to be benefiting from the OO5SR part of an OoC proc. So basically all you save is 100% off the average cost of your staple spell. Period. Sure, it is possible that in the end it is still worthwhile - I just seriously doubt that it is better to spend a talent point in OoC than a talent point in Intensity or Dreamstate (assuming you don't have the talent points to afford to max all of them out), because the length of the proc chance (or internal cooldown) of OoC procs is likely to be balanced towards the "healer use" of the talent.

In the end I guess it will depend on what your staple spells will be. if it turns out to be Wrath spam, OoC will be even worse. Starfire spam? Well, possibly wortwhile - but don't you still prefer Intensity, now that WotLK itemization will stuff spellpower gear with spirit anyway?

So: I am just curious why so many take OoC rather than Intensity in their moonkin builds? Has there been any maths done about that? I couldn't find any in this topic at least (terribly sorry if I have somehow failed to see it and this already being discussed).

 

Panoramixe

First of all it looks like moonkin itemisation will be stamina, int, spell crit and spellpower. It has no spirit on it.
You can check MMO Champion for that. So this alone could already make intensity inferior to both dreamstate and OoC. I don't know the proc chance for OoC though, the mana issue will need some serious theorycrafting when the tree is finally more or less stable.

 

Findy

Palendior, there is a trade-off between mana regen and damage talents due to the current talent bloat for Moonkins. Choosing both Dreamstate AND Intensity would seem a bit too much (6 talent points in total) and would give a smaller return for one of these talents, because some may stack Intellect, while others may choose to stack Spirit. Don't forget that the Moonkin Form also gives 2% of total mana returned per crit.

As stated in previous posts in this topic Intensity scales better than Dreamstate does. Omen of Clarity as a result is more efficient talent-wise than sinking an extra 3 points into one of these two.

Also, Dreamstate is not needed to progress down the Balance tree, so those 3 talent points are better spent elsewhere.

 

Erdluf

I rememer seeing Omen of Clarity would have a 6% proc chance, with a 10s internal cooldown. It is possible that may have changed. If it still holds, the point in OOC is worth more than a point in Moonglow.

Moonglow: 3% reduced casting cost.

OOC during SF spam: 4 casts during cooldown. 18 more casts to proc. 23rd cast is free. That is better than a 4% reduction in casting cost.

Also, at zero haste, and no crit, OOC gets you out of the 5SR for a little bit (3s free cast plus 3s on next cast is six seconds without spending mana).

On occasion, it is even better. If MF procs OOC, you've got another 1.5s without spending mana, meaning a total of 7.5s (before haste), giving 2.5s outside of the 5sr. Movement or lag add to that.

If mana is really not an issue, you may not bother getting tier 3 of resto (12 points for MS is a lot), but if you care about mana, and are already at tier-3 resto talents, OOC is a better buy than Moonglow in a DPS situation.

 

Alerian

There isn't a ton of itemization on MMO Champion, mostly the caster leather gear has stamina, intellect, spirit, and spell power. 1 item has no spirit and crit rating instead, but there are 10-ish other items. Has anyone seen any of the epic Moonkin items for LK, not including the PvP items already listed (since they naturally won't have spirit anyway)?

 

Panoramixe

8820 Loot List V2, Pre-WotLK Patch, Blue posts
Half of the blue caster leather in the list is made for moonkin, aka spellcrit/spell haste + spellpower; int, stamina
the other half is resto oriented spririt + spellpower, int, stamina
And yes the pvp gear has the same moonkin stats. We can only assume the same will happen for gear in raids, it would make sense since moonkin leather can also be used by resto and ele shamans. It's a bit presumptuous though to comment on epic leather gear, since I haven't seen any yet.

 

• Playered

Keep in mind we wont start seeing 'raid' gear until heroics start opening up and unveiling them to us.

There is little use to having masses of regeneration stats on your instance and leveling gear because you wont need it for those aspects of the game - encounters are short and you have time to eat/drink between them.

Heroics are there to provide you gear to get into the raiding game (both via drops & badges) and honestly until we see the itemization used there we cannot really assume to know what stat distribution we will have on our raiding kit.
Naxx gear will also be a great chance to see what we have in store for us as it is been discussed so much as a stepping stone into raiding.

You also have LW and other crafted epic gear to wait on too.


All the stat consolidation isn't worked out yet correctly either - Spirit is still only useful for Balance if you invest in Intensity, Crit is dubious for Resto too.

 

Mateus

@Erdluf

Do you think you could come up with some maths for the actual balance talents (including glyphs) for some of our spells once you have the time? Like the ones you did like a month ago.