princeinexile

I don't think that you're too far off; in a true min-maxing situation, specs may very well have to be tweaked depending on the encounter and that day's raid make-up. However, given an idealized raid make-up (at least a couple of every class) a smart raid leader would probably request that those who could apply their buff/debuff passively (i.e. in the course of their natural spell rotation) be the ones responsible for it. In other words, in this case a Moonkin could apply the E&M debuff (freeing up warlocks to use a damage or other curse) and the IS -hit debuff (since IS is a reasonable part of a workable spell rotation), and the +5% crit (freeing up elemental shamans so they don't have to take Elemental Oath), but would leave the +hit buff from IFF as the province of the spriests, and the haste would be the responsibility of any two shamans in the raid, leaving us free to skip IMKA and IFF altogether, and put those points elsewhere.

I personally anticipate having several varying specs I will use for different situations, depending on who else is present in the raid mix, trading out points between greater utility and greater personal dps to suit the situation.

 

Panoramixe

Our IMKA haste buff stacks with everything but retridins, both are passive so that's a tricky one.

 

Erdluf

Putting up the IS debuf means not using the IS glyph. That is about a 2-2.5% penalty to our rotation. I don't know what the "cost" of Scorpid Sting is to a hunter (or our cost to add/remove glyphs).

 

princeinexile

Really? My understanding was that whenever there were two similar buffs, the more powerful one canceled out the weaker one. In other words, a windfury totem and a wrath of air totem, each granting 5% haste to melee and casting, respectively, would completely cancel out IMKA (and the ret pally aura). Is this incorrect? If IMKA stacks on top of totems, that's thrilling news I was unaware of.

 

Panoramixe

IMKA and improved retardin aura give 3% to all haste (melee, ranged and spells), while the totem only gives spell haste. Therefore Blizz decided to make them stack.

 

Allurissa

Glyphs seem relatively inexpensive at the moment. There is a 1 hour cooldown on replacing your glyphs and it seems to be per glyph spot. For example, once you have all 3 major filled in, there's an hour before you can swap any of them. There is also an hour on the individual glyph spot that you swap, so you can swap the 3 major for resto or feral glyphs and an hour later, swap them back to balance. Hopefully this answers your question on glyphs Erdluf.

The glyph materials are pigment(s) to create the ink, which is milled from herbs and a piece of parchment.

 

Tsarin

I know this might seem like a silly question. But are glyph's unique? Are you allowed to put 3 glyphs of moonfire in your gear?

 

Erdluf

In post #108, Moonkin WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion, of this thread, Balancemoon quoted a source that indicates the two eclipse buffs are exclusive (you only get one at a time), but don't share a cooldown (you can get one right after the other expires).

In post #411 it confirms you can't have both at once, but gives an "it seems yes" answer to the question of a shared cooldown.

Can someone on beta prove (or disprove) the description in #108? Simulationcraft uses a shared cooldown. The author, understandably, would like to know for sure before changing his code.

 

Celdhyrean

The cooldown is shared.
I took Eclipse and all crit/mana regen talents, went to Dr Boom to test :
- casting wrath until Eclipse procs
- waiting for proc to disappear
- MF + SF for max chances of SF crit <=== no proc at all until a fairly long time (10+ SF crits in the meantime)
- Continuing SF, Eclipse procs again (2min6s after the first)
- switching back to wrath, no Eclipse proc with 5 wrath crits

(and then he died, wasn't full life at the start of the experiment)

Edit : WWS link
Wow Web Stats

 

dedmonwakeen

SimulationCraft r225 available for download.....

Includes fix for Eclipse Wrath bonus and better reporting of when Nature Vulnerability charges are consumed.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

PsyBomb

Any given spell cannot have more than one glyph affecting it. This was stated somewhere, I'm not sure where. The only people who currently run into an issue here are Mages, since they have two glyphs affecting Polymorph (Penguin and DoT removal). Thus, you technically could equip 3 Moonfire glyphs, but only the first would work. They'll probably refine this more before 3.0x

To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.

 

Erdluf

wowhead is now showing Abolish Poison lasting for 1 minute. If it that survives to release it will be nice for PvE, and exceptional for PvP.

Abolish Poison - Spell - World of Warcraft

 

PsyBomb

Nature's focus is now also affecting Wrath, Entangling Roots, and Cyclone. Yet again, points I didn't want to have to spend...

To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.

 

Axanor

Well, it's not like you'd need Intensity in a PvP spec. I do think that the early Resto stuff needs a little bit of an adjustment, positioning-wise.

Hopefully that pruning pass on Deep Balance happens pretty soon.

 

PsyBomb

yeah, but 2 points there would make Wrath nearly immune to pushback when combined with the Glyph. Probably going to have a lot of PvE application, especially if Wrath Spam ends up good.

To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.

 

• Adoriele

In PvE, if you're suffering from pushback, it means you're taking damage. The solution to this is NOT TO KEEP CASTING. Pushback protection has no business in a serious PvE build.

On a more constructive note, swapping IS and NG is an odd move. I suppose they're doing it to justify bringing IS up to par with Scorpid Sting so that they no longer stack, but putting the ability to get a very fast HT (NG + Glyph) in the reach of Restos screams bad things for PvP. Though I suppose it's protected by the fact that no serious PvP resto will take the glyph because it kills NS+HT. A faster nourish probably isn't something to worry about either.

I do think improved IS needs to be decoupled from IS itself if it's going to keep the buff to Moonfire with it (change the name of course). The moonfire buff is far too valuable to pass up, it's an odd choice to make us take a situationally useful (as in, no hunters in the raid) talent to get something so potent.

 

Boswell

For Karazhan, probably yeah push back is useless. For fights where DPS is as intensive as version 1.0 Muru where negative energy can inturrupt casting, push back protection is very valuable.

 

Munorion

I don't remember if this was changed in this build or already before, but the Nature's Grace description doesn't contain anything about reducing the global cooldown for Wrath anymore.

 

Agrom

I've seen the drops of Naxx 10, and there is a lot of haste rating. If we pick Improved Moonkin form and Celestial Focus... don't you think that Wrath becomes useless?

 

Panoramixe

Well I'll be damned they added spirit to the moonkin gear ...
So now you have moonkin gear, resto gear and shaman wouldn't want either, I guess Blizzard doesn't get their own new system of shared loot.
So now dreamstate is useless again and intensity is more or less mandatiry I assume.

And like the poster above me said a lot of haste gear, but it will probably not be too hard to pick up some random resto/crit loot if a wrath rotation proves to be worth it.

ps. Check the 10-man healer set, that's just wrong. Does Blizzard even know how resto's work?
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...uid_healer.jpg

 

Celdhyrean

resto vs balance = 10-15 spirit vs 10-15 crit/haste (+socket colors/bonusses). Hit changes to mp5.
That's where the gear homogenization comes into play, not with ele and resto shamans.

I'm not sure restos will complain too much about haste, while it's not that usefull for the hots which were the main healing component, it does allow all other spells to catch up with them, helping to promote use of various other spells.
And from Blizzards point of view, it's the same problem all classes that depend only on one stat have : if you convert all haste/crit/... other classes get in spellpower, trees would be OP too fast, so they have to give other stats and try to make them usefull through talents.

 

Panoramixe

I still think it's pretty much a waste of item budget
crit and haste aren't useful for:
Lifebloom, rejuv, regrowth
So you're left with healing touch and nourish, which will still be inferior spells because of the mana cost reduction from the tree aura + the regrowth glyph and the synergy between living seed and regrowth's crit chance.
(At least they fixed HT a bit for pve, 0.5 secs shorter base cast time screwed pvp a bit more there though.)

They could have just put on more spirit and mp5, so resto's would be forever at 100% mana would at least be more useful than some random stats that only affect about 10% of their rotation. It's not like resto druids on live pwn all on the healing meter because of focused stats.

As for moonkin, they would probably be better off with gear similar to ele shaman. Our balance tree is completely focused around int, yet Blizzard keeps pushing spirit on us. We're losing item budget to solve a mana issue that wouldn't exist with pure nuke stats either.

Perhaps they'll surprise us with a spirit to crit/spellpower conversion in a talent somewhere, so there actually is a reason for all the spirit.

 

Dioneirra

I have to disagree. While Haste really is a weak (if not even obsolete) stat for most restoration druids (depending on how GCD and Gift of the Earthmother will be implemented in the retail version of WotLK, crit does have a certain value. It makes Regrowth a somewhat competetive spell (combined with the improved talent, especially strong as a frontloaded 'fire and forget' spell in 5 and 10 man dungeons), the effect on Lifebloom is really weak of course, and it needs to bloom to benefit, but still, not completly useless. I wouldn't count on both (RNG is not to be trusted), but my experience especially with Regrowth is (contrary to what a lot of druids seem to believe) somewhat positive til now.

The changed HT is something i don't understand right now, it seems to serve no purpose in druid healing (as a slow big heal i did see it use, now that trees can cast it in their shapeshift form), and to scale it down to a less powerful direct healing is something i really don't need while Nourish and Regrowth are available as very suitable solutions. Most likely i will change my healing style as moonkin in substituting Nourish for Healing Touch to counter the damage spikes on the tank while the HoTs tick, and let HT become a seldom used 'big toss heal', of course depending on what damage to expect. And in the bigger raids GH, HW and HL seems so much better for providing big heals when needed, so why should a tree use HT (and spending two GCDs) on an inferior heal? Maybe i am missing some information here, but right now i don't see the reason for the changes.

What i don't like in the preview itemization is the seeminly randomness between the two spellpower sets for the two spellcasting druid specs, i don't see a pattern emerging which would hint at further development. The two sets differ so weakly one is tempted to pick the best of the two sets (if set boni will be compatible, who knows).

 

erragal

Considering the traditional mana efficiency of tree druids:
Looking at both sets side by side if I were a resto healer, I'd much prefer the balance chest and legs assuming they do not develop any mana constraints. On the flipside, only the resto gloves look potentially more attractive in a nuking set (Getting haste instead of crit, but a lower amount.)


The real issue with the spirit? It's going to make our DPS that much worse than the other casters. Mages/warlocks only got two pieces with spirit itemization. Elem shaman have zero. Both classes have the non-spirit pieces with both haste AND crit or have additional hit. Spirit is only a good DPS stat if you're going to run out of mana without it. Unless we get an amazing talent that converts spirit into crit/haste at a good clip, this itemization separation is going to be what really messes up our DPS compared to other casters.

I hope someone in the beta can bring this to light, as no matter how good our talent tree is, it currently does not cover for poor itemization.


And I've only seen a spell power sword so far, I hope the spell power mace is as well itemized as the sword (In fairness Holy Paladins are now a viable user of spell power swords.)

 

princeinexile

Do you have verification of this? The only information I've seen on the subject says that, in this scenario, the wrath of air totem would cancel out the spell haste portion of IMKA, and windfury totem would cancel out the melee haste of IMKA.

I don't mean to doubt you, but the picture you paint seems too good to be true, so before I get my hopes up I need to ask: are you 100% sure? Where'd you get this information?