Hmm Naxx epic moonkin gear is out and it has lotsa spirit. Guess blizz plans for us to have intensity instead of DS in Wrath just like now, assuming it doesn't get changed. DS really needs to be replaced\buffed imo
Blizzard says they don't plan on making anymore items with AC increased by ilevel anymore. Dreamstate should just be removed or changed completely. The Moonkin set looks the best so far, but I find the lack of hit somewhat...concerning.
That make more sense if they stopped giving us so much mp/5 on our PvP gear.
Something came to my mind before when some s. priest was complaining that druids get 7% hit from talents and s. priests only get 6%...Why not scrap Balance of Power and roll the +hit into Lunar Guidance? It would make up for the nerf to Lunar Guidance, and reduce some bloat.
If there's still no spirit on the PvP gear, Blizzard may just consider Dreamstate a PvP talent and be happy to leave it at that.
Well the Honor PVP gear has 0 spirit and 0 mp5. Didn't see the arena point gear posted on mmo-champ yet but i was scrolling through the pages pretty fast
Blizzard says they don't plan on making anymore items with AC increased by ilevel anymore. Dreamstate should just be removed or changed completely. The Moonkin set looks the best so far, but I find the lack of hit somewhat...concerning.
Compare those two and then you'll see how much we're sacrifiving for spirit. Blizzard has to either make spirit a decent stat for moonkin by adding some talents involving it or let us "share" gear with shaman.
If you check our balance tree currently there are 0 talents that have anything to do with spirit, the itemisation just doesn't make sense.
Edit:
Check out the socket bonusses too, I truely hope this is a placeholder or it's a bad joke of a set.
The sets are pretty much guaranteed to change before live. I'd like to see more Spirit synergy thrown in similar to what Shadow Priests get, but we already have a fair amount of bloat, and anything would have to be thrown in at the end of the tree to prevent insane hybrid healing builds.
The sets are pretty much guaranteed to change before live. I'd like to see more Spirit synergy thrown in similar to what Shadow Priests get, but we already have a fair amount of bloat, and anything would have to be thrown in at the end of the tree to prevent insane hybrid healing builds.
Hence the need to talk about. If we want things changed it is much easier to QQ now and have blizz update them then to wait till release and then QQ for changes. Yes blizz 'might' already have fixes in mind but historically i would not bet on them fixing it (or having really 'good' fixes) without input from the community. Just taking the shammy nuker itemization (same stat distribution and just make it leather) and fixing DS somehow works for me!
PS Seeing how much better shammy_nuker gear is itemized, right out of the gate, makes me cry.
Blizzard says they don't plan on making anymore items with AC increased by ilevel anymore. Dreamstate should just be removed or changed completely. The Moonkin set looks the best so far, but I find the lack of hit somewhat...concerning.
Well, they didn't PLAN on doing it in BC either, they just had to after the fact.
On spellhit. We'll be starting off at 7% (BOP and iFF or equivalent). Add a draeni or two to your group and little hit will be needed. I'd prefer the tier gear give minimal spellhit and let me pick and choose it on non-set gear and\or gems.
In TBC, with zero hit from gear (4% hit from BoP), SF spam, and itemization costs, the first point of hit becomes better than spell at about 791 +spell (raid buffed).
In LK at 80, with zero hit from gear (4% from BoP, 3% from IIS or Misery), SF spam, and itemization costs, the first point of hit becomes better than spell at about 2146 +spell (raid buffed).
I'm not sure the Naxx gear really gets you past that point (anyone have the numbers?).
This ignores the advantage of "spreading" stats on a piece of gear. It also ignores the indirect cost that an SF miss has when combined with Earth and Moon, the SF Glyph, or Nature's Grace opportunities.
TBC:
87% hit with zero hit from gear.
12.62 hit rating = 1% hit.
SF damage = (588 + 1.2*spell)*(87%+hit/1262)*(other stuff)
adding 1 spell does 1.2*0.87*(other stuff) damage.
adding 1 hit does (588+1.2*spell)/1262*(other stuff) damage.
6/7 hit = 1 spell at about 791 damage.
LK
90% hit with zero hit from gear.
26.23 hit rating = 1% hit.
SF damage = (730 + 1.2*spell)*(90%+hit/2623)*(other stuff)
adding 1 spell does 1.2*.9*(other stuff) damage.
adding 1 hit does (730+1.2*spell)/2623*(other stuff) damage
I noticed the comments about Spirit being wasted on us. I wonder though, if Discipline is viable for raiding priests, we'd get imp Spirit buff and gain a much larger benefit from that than a shaman. Assuming 600 spirit (like someone mentioned earlier) 6% extra damage from imp Spirit = 36 extra spell damage. Just looking at the five pieces from the Naxx sets linked we have 236 spirit more than an equivalent shaman so we get an extra 14 damage. Not a huge amount but still pretty nice.
And since more spirit makes intensity more valuable it might make sense to do a single point in dreamstate and 2 in intensity (not sure what the spirit based mana regen actually amounts to in wrath).
Mages in a full Naxx-10 kit and Sunwell gear to fill ~5 bad slots are looking at 2200 spell power fully raid buffed, gemmed, enchanted.
Other classes shouldn't be much different really. You'll have a good 100 dmg more from your int>dmg talent even.
Our "hit > dmg" threshold is also in the 2200 dmg region, so we also want to reach the hit cap when getting a full Naxx-10 kit.
Also, naturally picking gear would get us to 14.3% hit on gear, so we actually have to avoid some hit on some pieces or we overcap with iFF/Misery and our talents (and the Draenei racial for Alliance).
As for spirit - IDS is said to not stack with the other options (Flametongue/ToW/Focus Magic/Demonic Pact) according to Blizzard. So, um, go go wasted budget or something.
I feel the amount of hit on our tier pieces is more than sufficient, as there are options with hit rating at every non-tier slot to bolster it with.
I wouldn't mind if our tier sets were itemized similarly to the warlock/mage ones: Two pieces only with spirit, put crit/haste in replacement on the others. That way we could go down to just one piece of spirit-itemized armor and still keep our four-piece bonus (Assuming they stay with 2/4 piece set bonuses, and not 2/5). But we would also have the option of going intensity and only worrying about two of our pieces not having spirit for regen; seems like the thought process they went through with mages/warlocks.
It's also important to note that right now warlocks get more out of spirit than either mages or druids as far as DPS casters, which is certainly backwards flavor-wise.
I saw the spirit on our Naxx Moonkin gear and was quite miffed. I don't know what they are thinking but alot of previous discussions in this thread already lended to the fact that we didn't really need talent points in OoC, Intensity, and Dreamstate all at once, plus having Innervate and the new crit-centric Moonkin mana regen effect. Plus raiding with 1-3 Mana Regen classes. Having +spirit on our tier gear is over the top, I'd rather have +damage or +crit, similiar to a E. Shaman or Warlock.
I hope on next data push (build) we see some changes like these: (unfortunately, can´t post on beta forums)
Dream Fire:
Combines Dreamstate and Improved Faerie Fire. (or a improvement to either if kept separated)
Eclipse:
When you hit with Starfire, you have a 40/70/100% chance of increasing damage done by Wrath by 10%. When you hit with Wrath, you have a 40/70/100% chance of increasing your critical strike chance with Starfire by 10%. Effect lasts 10 sec and has a 10 sec inner cooldown. (maybe it will need to be 5% dmg and 5% crit instead of 10% - notice I changed to hit also, instead of critically hit, I am thinking as a debuff in line with mangle/scorch)
This would make eclipse more interesting to enter on our rotations, lets say something as MFx1, SFx3, Wx1 or ISx1, Wx5, SFx1 (given no haste and 100% uptime of eclipse).
E&M - 3 points 40/70/100% chance to apply the debuff, to be in line with malediction cost.
Yep, I've read those posts. I don't believe you're interpreting them correctly. The more powerful buff takes precedence and overwrites weaker buffs. They use as as an example Fel Intelligence, which grants spirit and int. Arcane Int would overwrite the Int part of that, but people would still benefit from the Spirit part.
In other words, yes, Wrath of Air would only overwrite the Spell Haste portion of IMKA. However, Windfury totem would overwrite the melee and ranged haste aspect of it. That's why I said that two shamans in the raid would make spending these talent points, er... pointless.
If you are saying that having a shaman dropping Wrath of Air totem along with a boomkin with IMKA would give everyone in the raid 8% spell haste, that's another story, but I don't think that's the case. If it's so, I still haven't seen it documented anywhere. Have you?
I saw the spirit on our Naxx Moonkin gear and was quite miffed. I don't know what they are thinking but alot of previous discussions in this thread already lended to the fact that we didn't really need talent points in OoC, Intensity, and Dreamstate all at once, plus having Innervate and the new crit-centric Moonkin mana regen effect. Plus raiding with 1-3 Mana Regen classes. Having +spirit on our tier gear is over the top, I'd rather have +damage or +crit, similiar to a E. Shaman or Warlock.
It could well be that the new extra Spirit is purely intended for out of casting mana regeneration though, rather than there being any kind of up coming change to Spirit regeneration during casting. Stopping casting to let full regeneration kick in can be a tough skill to master, but if it is now seen as one of the main ways to regenerate mana then this may be something that needs to be done more often. You might think "But I don't want to pause, I want to keep casting" which is a fair point, but the intention might be to design the encounters to allow people to need this kind of regeneration break.
That being said, it's clear that we're not intending everyone to just get the set gear and nothing else. So there will be a range of different pieces of gear you can try out, and if OOC mana regeneration isn't something you're wanting to get into, then there might be some gear with raw MP5 or as you say higher intellect or crit to play into the Moonkin form bonuses and Dreamstate.
It sounds like... they don't know what spirit is good for? Sounds like he's just making stuff up. It seems a bit silly for a DPS class to start using the 5SR when they have Glyphs and talents that encourage constant casting.
Nobody seems to be having problems with mana in Naxx right now (maybe Ret pallies), but I think that's because regen is too good across the board. I wouldn't use that experience (yet) to determine that you have enough Spirit.
Most casters are going to have a lot of Spirit on their gear, but we'll see if we can get you some more crit.
Ghostcrawler did made a post adressing balance druid issues today. While some of the things he said were true and indeed pointed out solutions that were long asked for (CC, rework of lower tiers, more hybrid options), i would like to point out several somewhat disputable statements.
- Good AE utility. Encounters and dungeons tend to get designed with the assumption that the ranged dps can do AE. Hurricane is phenomenal now. I healed a run today and did really competitive dps with Hurricane on the ranged pulls. And I wasn't even Balance! I love Starfall. It's a rare spell because it feels new -- it isn't single target and it isn't classical Hurricane-style AE either.
- Group utility. I think deep balance provides that now. Even Insect Swarm and Faerie Fire have a better role now. Without the vicious cycle of Curse of Shadows buffing warlocks which lead to inviting more warlocks somewhat solved, I think it will be easier for Balance druids to get into raids regardless. We've just opened space for more classes now.
So that's it for role. Beyond that, what I think Balance needed was a means not to go insane by mashing the same buttons all the time. My favorite talent for attempting to solve this is Eclipse. Eclipse almost by itself "saved" Balance for me. Several times I tried going Balance in Classic and BC and just couldn't do it. But Eclipse is fun just because sometimes you want to Wrath and sometimes you want to Starfire. Improved Insect Swarm starts to get at this kind of mixed up of rotations too, and even the haste benefit from Moonkin a little as well.
One of the main problems i do have with his views is how he looks at starfall. Right now, with the removal of the CD and a possibility to improve damage through a talent, Hurricane is a solid and reliable AE spell, even offering an additional debuff. It is offset by no reliable pushback protection besides Barkskin, but that's completly ok with me, the new pushback mechanic will let a certain number of ticks happen, so it's fine. There is a new and usable AE spell in our tree, Typhoon, a kind of 'Oh damn!' button in mass mob situations. It will fill a existing niche and surely will be used where approriate. But Starfall... how can someone judge a spell just because 'it's cool and new and exciting'? Such a description would point to a gimmick spell, somewhat that will be used for fun and to impress new players (as was the vanilla hurricane 31 point talent, it had an exciting graphic effect back then, but was almost never used besides to show off). Of course i may be interpreting to much in his statement, but it looks like a misconception about the role of balance druids today, which are no longer rarely seen and played, and looked upon as an oddity.
The other main problems that may be read into his post could be an misunderstanding with druidic needs. I may only be speaking for myself, but i don't mind spamming buttons in PvE, usually every class does it one way or another. Nor do i oppose introductions of new mechanics or abilities. As long as they serve a real purpose. While i could just reading it wrong, i do have the feeling that he is pointing out the 'Moonkins should be fun to play'-aspect to much. There has been a lot of discussion why Eclipse will most likely not be used be most Balance Druids, why there seems to be a certain kind of redundance and bloat, and where Blizzard has done a good job in reworking our trees. Is the reason 'Eclipse will be fun, because you will change your spells according to the procs' enough to justify the design of such a talent? Or am i just to suspicious regarding this post?
The other main problems that may be read into his post could be an misunderstanding with druidic needs. I may only be speaking for myself, but i don't mind spamming buttons in PvE, usually every class does it one way or another. Nor do i oppose introductions of new mechanics or abilities. As long as they serve a real purpose. While i could just reading it wrong, i do have the feeling that he is pointing out the 'Moonkins should be fun to play'-aspect to much. There has been a lot of discussion why Eclipse will most likely not be used be most Balance Druids, why there seems to be a certain kind of redundance and bloat, and where Blizzard has done a good job in reworking our trees. Is the reason 'Eclipse will be fun, because you will change your spells according to the procs' enough to justify the design of such a talent? Or am i just to suspicious regarding this post?
I agree with this sentiment entirely. Saying Eclipse is fun because it encourages you to rotate your spells is no value for a talent. We have plenty of spells we cast during our DPS cycle to switch things up because we're partially a dot class. If they wanted to switch things up more they could have given us high DPS lifebloom-esque dot, or a moderate cooldown burst damage ability/dot as a mana sink. Those are the types of abilities that would create variety and an interesting rotation.
Just making Eclipse an Icy Veins style activated buff would bring more options and gameplay choices for a balance druid. These types of abilities also accentuate the effect of player skill/knowledge on personal DPS, something Blizzard has said they're in favor of.
And every DPS in a raid mashes the same cycle of buttons, that comes with the territory.
I agree with this sentiment entirely. Saying Eclipse is fun because it encourages you to rotate your spells is no value for a talent. We have plenty of spells we cast during our DPS cycle to switch things up because we're partially a dot class. If they wanted to switch things up more they could have given us high DPS lifebloom-esque dot, or a moderate cooldown burst damage ability/dot as a mana sink. Those are the types of abilities that would create variety and an interesting rotation.
Just making Eclipse an Icy Veins style activated buff would bring more options and gameplay choices for a balance druid. These types of abilities also accentuate the effect of player skill/knowledge on personal DPS, something Blizzard has said they're in favor of.
And every DPS in a raid mashes the same cycle of buttons, that comes with the territory.
Hmm i recall reading a BLUE post from Koraa saying they don't want us to have to mash to many buttons
MMO-Champion BlueTracker - To Europe Moonkin & Wryn's post
Eclipse: Eclipse is intended to be a good DPS upgrade when you utilize it, if it isn't resulting in that then we will change the damage bonus effects it gives you. Your specific results with Eclipse testing would help. It is intended to be a long cooldown, though. Otherwise you'd get fatigue from swapping between Wrath and Starfire too much.
What they should do it make our dots last longer, cheaper to cast or something SO that keeping DOTs up + SF\Wrath is always higher than SF\Wrath spam. Nature's Splendor and imp IS are a step in the right direction
On a completely different note, why is Innervate the only mana return effect (still) based on Spirit? Everything else is % of total mana. If they changed innervate to % of total mana per second it would fit all the other moonkin int focused talents better and make innervate useful for casting on that many more classes. No one innervates healadins or restoshams, seeing as neither has much spirit. If they changed this it would also be another good reason to take all that spirit off our gear and add more 'good' stats and\or give us a spirit -> cris\spellpower etc talent without making spirit 'too useful', perish the thought
09/06/08, 10:47 AM
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