Devotion Aura is a raidwide aura, MotW is a cast buff. I would expect them to stack. Wrath of Air totem and IMKA are both raidwide "auras." If they stack and together provide 8% spell haste (and windfury stacks to provide 8% ranged/melee attack speed), that is brilliant news, but again--I have yet to see proof. Does anyone have any?

Look at what he said.
Only buffs in the same bracket don't stack, everything else does. If this wasn't the case he would have just put IMKA and imp retri aura in both the melee and spell haste bracket as he did with other abilities that have more than one compenent. He put them in a seperate one, meaning they stack.

ps. melee haste is 20% talented for dk's and shamans.

I dunno how a dev can claim we just mash buttons and it's no fun... sure we have an optimum cast cycle but I know I typically wind up casting my DPS cycle + Treants + IS + FF + decurse + battle res (too many nubs in raid) + innervate + the odd heal. Compare that to a mage/lock who casts two or three spells. If we're playing as a hybrid/utility character there is already too much to do. Adding eclipse is pointless and only makes it less fun, and if we're playing to be an optimum DPS caster and ignore the other aspects then button mashing will always be king.

As for Dreamstate/Intensity and spirit, they could potentially solve the problem by changing Dreamstate to be spirit based regen instead of int. Essentially duplicate the intensity talent in the balance tree. Keeps spirit important and keeps points in the balance tree. And if they wanted to make it more interesting then they add another small bonus too it - intensity gives more rage when a feral enrages, why not make dreamstate grant something on a balance on use ability - maybe extra mp5 for 15 seconds on changing to moonkin form, or extra spell damage for 15 seconds on changing to moonkin. If they want "fun" and playing like a hybrid that'd also encourage shifting form to do something else.

Well mages do also cast sheep... and we'll be casting Roots WOOT!!!!

I wish I had access to the beta forums so I could post some suggestions.

The more I think about it, I really feel we're missing a mana dump spell. Without needing to design a specific spell, just having a high mana/high DPS ability would give real value to spirit and mana regen talents. It also creates a real decision between more mana to use your mana sink or more DPS stats to buff your other spells.

Maybe Eclipse could be a talent similar to Arcane Blast, where casting Starfire makes your next Wrath x% More and do x% more damage, and have the talent work the other way as well. Then have the damage/mana increase stack, so that weaving the two spells creates the mana dump.

Fun is in the eye of the beholder. If you're perhaps raiding 25-man instances then you might prefer to keep it simple since you need to concentrate on whats going on around you. For us with Druid alts, then it is just fun to have a class that doesn't behave the same way as our main.

Now, I wonder if it would not be more constructive to voice how button mashing could have a negative impact, rather than voicing that is simply not fun. For example, will the Eclipse talent become a necessary dps-increase, while the buff itself is done in such manner that it is hard to use it unless you totally focus on your row of buff icons? As Elemental Shaman, the buff itself looks similar to our Elemental Focus in the sense it triggers sporadically and is only up for a relative short duration. However, as I understand it, Eclipse is different from Elemental Focus in the way that you've to notice that it is up and change your cast sequence in order to profit from it. This mechanism could perhaps be a problem in a hectic boss fight, but I wager testing will tell.

Regarding the wotlk wish-list with how Dreamstate should be changed, then it would not surprise me if Blizzard is relative happy with this talent. I wager that since Dreamstate is in tier 6, there is no need to add additional effects to it, since Feral and Restoration Druids will not take it. Meanwhile, for spirit based regen, then Intensity is actually in range to take for Balance Druids, giving them mana regeneration from both spirit and intellect. Of course, there are now so many new talents in the Balance Tree that you are forced to sacrifice some in order to boost your mana regen, but Blizzard has stated that their intention is to bloat the talent-trees.

___________________________________

Yep, don't we all wish to have beta access, since in the end our own ideas are far superior. However, if we should wish for things we don't have, then I would go for money and time myself.

Now, I wonder if there is really a dire need to create a brand new spell to achive what Innervate already does to a lesser degree. You could argue that Innervate should have lower cooldown, or perhaps that it should not be castable on others. The possibilities are endless, so why not just leave it with a general desire that if Spirit should be on rings, necks and weapons, then it would be equally nice if every caster class had some way to profit from this stat. It wouldn't surprise me though, in the light of Elemental Shamans and Warlocks, if Blizzard view Moonkins as a class and spec that has its share of spirit-based talents and spells.

Addendum:
Reading comprehension for the win. That is the prize to post before you've got enough coffee in your system. Ok, pardon for the above. You asked for a mana dump, not a spirit based mana regen. Well, by all reports the mana costs is not finalized and I believe there was a blue post stating that Moonkins had currently a bit too good mana regen. Regardless, if Moonkins will be moved to be an AoE class, then the mana consumption could potentially shot through the roof and give the desired mana dump.

The reasoning behind wanting a mana sink DPS ability isn't an idea restricted to just me, it's a concept multiple people have voiced in both the mage thread and the general WotLK thread: it is more fun to manage mana in order to do more DPS, than to manage mana just to be able to keep casting.

The idea that they'll keep raising mana costs until they're greater than personal + raid buffed regen seems unlikely because of the affect it would have on solo/small group play. This is also the best time to make suggestions: while they're still balancing and open to ideas of what is and is not fun to play for the different types of players.

AoE as a mana dump is only reasonable in the fights with aoe mechanics. The majority of the theorycrafting and suggestions on these boards is aimed at single target DPS, as we haven't seen any of the new raid encounter designs that could potentially stress AoE as an important boss utility.

Cooldown on Eclipse has been reduced to 30s. The duration is still thirty seconds. I assume this means that you have the opportunity to refresh it as soon as it goes down.

Evaluation:

In http://elitistjerks.com/879299-post670.html I listed a Wrath rotation, MF IS Wr*10 which I will call 100% dps. I listed a IS SF*5 rotation which did 94.3% dps.

Strategy: Take 3/3 Eclipse. Use the SF rotation until Eclipse procs, then use the Wrath rotation until Eclipse fades.

In that post, SF had a crit rate of 42% (35% from gear and raid buffs, 4% from NM, and 3% from IIS). At 42% crit, it takes an average of 2.4 casts to get a crit. With 3/3 Eclipse, you need an average of 1.7 crits to proc the buff.

It will take an average of 2.4*1.7 = 4 SF casts to proc the buff. You almost certainly won't notice the proc until you've queue'd your next spell (either IS or a Nature's Graced SF). In all you will have spent about 14.1s doing the low-dps rotation, and wasted about 2.1s of the buff duration.

You've now got about 27.9s to use the Wrath rotation. Wrath will do 10% extra damage, but that will add only about 7.5% extra damage to the rotation as a whole (which will still use IS and MF).

14.1s @ 94.3% DPS
27.9s @ 107.5% DPS

ends up doing about 103% DPS. Your 3 talent points bought you 3% dps, and some mana efficiency (since the SF rotation is more mana efficient). That makes those points a better investment than things like CF (slightly less than 1% dps per talent point) if you can pay enough attention to maintain the weaving.

I'd feel better about this result if it were confirmed by a simulator. It is easy to make mistakes in closed-form computations about spell weaving.

This result is very dependent on your crit rate, and the ratio in DPS between your SF and Wrath rotations. If either of those change very much at all, the value of Eclipse will change significantly. Eclipse is at its best when both SF and Wrath do the same DPS, and you have very high crit rates. At low crit rates (or large DPS differences between the spells) Eclipse becomes much weaker.

Edit: spelling and grammar

I got into the Beta this last push, so I'll be copying over both my main and a pre-made 80 (hopefully I'll find a way to gear up). I'll be taking a close look at most of the talents' effects on DPS, and trying to get a sense of our mana returns and scaling, mostly in a raiding scenario. I know we need to find out the internal cooldown of OOC, if it has one, similar for Moonkin Form regen. Is there anything else we need some heavy lifting on?

Erdluf:

How about a IS/Wrath/Starfire rotation with the moonfire glyph using the new eclipse? You'd never need to cast moonfire and would simply cast wrath to proc the Starfire buff every 30 seconds. As your haste and the fight length increased, you could potentially stack enough moonfire duration to reverse buffs and go for the higher DPS of wrath at that point. It seems like this is also a very valuable mana regen talent when utilized in this way, and may be more important if they really do follow through on their stated goals in regards to mana management.


EDIT:

Adoriele:

I don't recall seeing any mention whether all 20 Starfall hits will go on a single target. While it would limit our effective range in an encounter, it's definitely important to know if this is would be a DPS increase in single target fights. I did read that it has almost nonexistant scaling, however.

I also haven't seen any real data/confirmation on thorns scaling with the casters spell power (And if so how does it interact with brambles.).

Eclipse is much improved. Its 60% proc rate means it won't go up immediately as soon as it goes down, but fairly quickly. However, while questing, I found it did have an annoying tendency to proc irritatingly frequently just as the mob died (much like shadow trance for aff locks), leaving no mobs close enough to spend most of the buff on. However, knowing that it can come up again almost as soon as it goes away is a nice feeling, and on boss fights, if you watch your timers carefully, you should be able to spend a goodly amount of time casting enhanced versions of whichever spell you'd prefer to use.

There are still too many worthwhile talents! But I'm not complaining. I like having to make difficult choices between different good possibilities.

A while back they said they might shave a few points here and there. If they do this, we're looking pretty good, I think.

I would hope Blizzard isn't done with spirit as stat for any class. With almost every form of raid-regen now depending exclusively on mana pool, spirit now feels like such a weak stat (and even spirit-based regen relies on intellect...)

Especially seeing how improved divine spirit does not stack with other forms of regen, tree of life aura no longer depends on spirit etc.

Does anyone have some spreadsheets based on T7'ish gear on spirit and intellect based regeneration models?

Latest version of SimulationCraft has latest beta updates, including Eclipse change.

One thing to note: I'm no longer certain that the Druid AI is correct. When the cooldown was 2min, it made sense to switch back to Wrath a few seconds before CD was up to force Starfire proc. Now I'm not so sure..... To force the SF proc, you now have to use Wrath while the SF bonus is still in affect.

I suppose if there is less than 3sec left on the SF buff you aren't going to get the 10% crit anyway, so maybe the AI should stay unchanged....

It would be nice if there were a (minor)glyph that would increase the duration of FF to 2-5 minutes, but remove the stealth prevention effect. This would make it much more convenient to use it in PvE while avoiding PvP implications.
As it looks right now I wouldn't even consider using iFF if there is a shadow priest and a feral around that could give the same benefit without loosing dps time.

My concern with the short SF cycle is that your moonfire is not going to last the full duration of the Wrath buff early in the fight. Even assuming a high haste/crit level average 2.0 second cast time Starfire, you only 'gain' 1 second excess duration on moonfire for every starfire cast.

You need 30/31 Starfire casts to ensure your moonfire will not drop off (Or 18/19 casts immediately after initial application). Thirty is to take into account you'll only be casting wrath for about 27 seconds, but you need the three seconds at the end to get a Starfire off. That's 60 seconds or 38 seconds of starfire casting assuming the very generous 2.0 second average cast time. You'd also need to reapply IS four times during the 56 seconds of Starfire building that moonfire duration up, extending the period by 5 Starfires/10 seconds as well. I'm just unsure if this was taken into account, or if you did determine that stopping to reapply a -90% DD moonfire was overall more DPS with the new eclipse.

Otherwise, I see a short wrath cycle early in the fight building towards a long wrath cycle near the end of the fight being more viable in conjunction with the SF/MF glyphs. I also should have some time to really look at SimulationCraft after work today and see how it's modeling our rotations.

Hmmm..... Most proc-based conditionals are guarded by a "time_to_think" call that checks reaction time.....

Unfortunately, Eclipse was not coded that way...... This has been changed in the sub-version codebase (r269), but it may be a little while before a windows download is available.

When this is done, slimply use:

actions=.../wrath,eclipse=benefit/starfire

However..... I've found that only using Wrath to trigger the Starfire buff was better in my setup. I -do- have an Enhancement Shaman with the SS Glyph, but I also have a Ele-Shammy and a Ele-Hybrid-Shammy driving down the Nature Vulnerability up-time (~27%)

I've been using 100ms lag, while you've been using a larger number. I think you've also been using more haste, but less crit. Those choices have a large impact on the Wrath vs. SF decision. I'm pretty sure 100ms lag is too optimistic for me, but my play is very casual.


I've also got two more questions for people on beta, related to the SF idol:

1) As you extend the MF duration, does the tick stay constant, or does it vary with your current spellpower? If it stays constant, you could get a noticable boost by trinketing the MF cast, and then working hard to be sure MF never fades.

2) Can you use SF spam to push the "current-remaining" MF duration to a high value (say 30s) or is it capped at the normal limit (12-18s depending on gear and talents).

Awesome questions for sure. My thought process has been automatically assuming you could stack it past the limit, forgetting no one has tested that or whether it allows you to roll trinketed/procced moonfires (Potentially resulting in something silly like switching to the level 60 moonfire idol for your initial cast.)

Additional questions:

Force of Nature: Are they getting all raid-wide buffs when they are summoned? If they get bloodlust we'll want to time it so we can summon them before it's used like frost mages will do with water elemental. Do they have any aoe protection at the moment? If they do get raid buffs, how do they scale with AP? Previously we weren't normally in a position for them to get the melee buffs, now they're all raid wide. EDIT: How do they scale with -our- AP? There's always the potential for weapon switching before and after cast.

An addenum to Erdluf's AOE cap question: Does Gale Winds change the cap if you're able to reach it?

Typhoon: Reports were that hurricane crits are not returning mana, what about Typhoon? Erdluf asked about the scaling for this spell, in addition is Gale Winds applied to base damage, spell damage scaling, or total damage? How does Master Shapeshifter interact with it as well?

Starfall: Right now the splash healing from the Holy Light Glyph for pallies is also healing the target of the spell (No indication on whether this is intended.). Is Starfall double dipping similarly?

About Force of Nature: Has anything been changed in regards to their vulnerability to AoE effects?

Not that I'm aware of, at least, not in a sense of "do they take less damage from random AoE attacks."