Moonkin WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion - Page 33

Kathbrian · 09/17/08, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Bluefish

Ghostcrawler is not a CM, she is a class developer.

Well, that's a scary thought, I'm hoping it was poor wording on her choice, but it wouldn't surprise me. Lots of people think we're a crit based class because of the 5% crit on moonkin form, and it seems the devs followed that philosophy when remaking the Balance tree with the %mana back on crit, Eclipse, and the original Imp. Moonkin Aura.

One big change I'd like to see for reduce bloat would be the removal of Balance of Power, and having +hit added to Lunar Guidance. It would bring us more inline with other caster classes who get +3% hit and something useful in one talent, with the exception of mages who get it in tier 1.

erragal · 09/17/08, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Kathbrian

Well, that's a scary thought, I'm hoping it was poor wording on her choice, but it wouldn't surprise me. Lots of people think we're a crit based class because of the 5% crit on moonkin form, and it seems the devs followed that philosophy when remaking the Balance tree with the %mana back on crit, Eclipse, and the original Imp. Moonkin Aura.

One big change I'd like to see for reduce bloat would be the removal of Balance of Power, and having +hit added to Lunar Guidance. It would bring us more inline with other caster classes who get +3% hit and something useful in one talent, with the exception of mages who get it in tier 1.

While it wasn't true in BC, we really have become more of a crit based class with the WotLK talents. Eclipse, Mana Regen, Nature's Grace are all dependent on critical rate now. Of course, we're also looking at 35% critical chance on starfire with ZERO stats taken into account.

10% Mage Debuff, 10% Eclipse, 5% Moonkin Aura, 4% <Talent whose name I always forget>, 3% ToW/Ret Pally, 3% Improved IS. Spell Power is also our best scaling stat per itemization point, so having Spirit give us spell power can only be a good thing. It'll likely mean the death of Dreamstate for PVE-raiding. The problem is unless it's a ridiculous 50% of spirit as spell power, we're still going to prefer

I think it's very likely Balance of Power would end up a place they put some of our additional buffs, rather than eliminating it as a separate talent.

Daern · 09/17/08, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Tyjet

8) (side note) Starfall is still rank 1 only on the PTR. Have further ranks been implemented on the beta realms yet?

Starfall Rank 2, as well as extra ranks of Typhoon were available on the PTR from the Moonglade trainer yesterday.

Lambach · 09/17/08, 1:51 PM

I have starfall and typhoon up to rank 4 or 5. Also some how they sneaked in a treant pet bar. I guess its what we wanted, but I've been so used to not having one, that atm it just clutters my screen, and I dont use it. In beta before the bar, they just attacked whatever I was attacking and that was fine. Also, its a huge normal pet bar, with no abilities on it. So it has a couple buttons on either side, and a whole lot of nothing in the middle. So its just messy and ugly.

Crit is nice, but hopefully they understand how crit doesnt scale for stacking as much as taking other stats does. We already have a int > dmg conversion. Should we really have a spirit > dmg one? I suppose I'm ok with it since it'll be on our gear anyway, but...just seems like a really cheap way out of the mess.

Tyjet · 09/17/08, 4:50 PM

Originally Posted by Lambach

I have starfall and typhoon up to rank 4 or 5. Also some how they sneaked in a treant pet bar. I guess its what we wanted, but I've been so used to not having one, that atm it just clutters my screen, and I dont use it. In beta before the bar, they just attacked whatever I was attacking and that was fine. Also, its a huge normal pet bar, with no abilities on it. So it has a couple buttons on either side, and a whole lot of nothing in the middle. So its just messy and ugly.

Crit is nice, but hopefully they understand how crit doesnt scale for stacking as much as taking other stats does. We already have a int > dmg conversion. Should we really have a spirit > dmg one? I suppose I'm ok with it since it'll be on our gear anyway, but...just seems like a really cheap way out of the mess.

ye, the petbar does feel a little unnecessary at times, but I guess if we bind a key to tell the treants to attack our target, it would be a bit better

At least we can control them now.
Actionbar addons would let u scale down the petbar bigtime too.

I think we would all be very happy about a spirit -> dmg talent

• Adoriele · 09/17/08, 4:59 PM

Attached is an awked log file which contains the start times of a couple minutes of wrath casting (There's a few other things I tossed in as well). First line is date, second line is time, third line is difference between when one begins casting, and when the next begins. Because the GCD locks out casting client-side, it's impossible for this event to be fired while under GCD, so it's a good test to see how low the GCD is being reduced. You'll notice that on 3 separate occasions, the separation on casting Wrath dips below 1s.

TL;DR Wrath now fully scales with Nature's Grace.

Tamber · 09/17/08, 5:12 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

Because the GCD locks out casting client-side, it's impossible for this event to be fired while under GCD, so it's a good test to see how low the GCD is being reduced. You'll notice that on 3 separate occasions, the separation on casting Wrath dips below 1s.

And you're certain this isn't just a result of a combination between cast-ahead queuing and log file date/timestamp oddities?
When I get home I might try putting Quag's eye on and getting a shaman to bloodlust me. If we are truly getting <1s wrath capability it should show up not just a few times, but regularly within that bloodlust.

• Adoriele · 09/17/08, 5:30 PM

Originally Posted by Tamber

And you're certain this isn't just a result of a combination between cast-ahead queuing and log file date/timestamp oddities?
When I get home I might try putting Quag's eye on and getting a shaman to bloodlust me. If we are truly getting <1s wrath capability it should show up not just a few times, but regularly within that bloodlust.

Pretty sure, but not 100%. GCD locks out cast-ahead queueing (you'll notice it on Starfire. Start spamming the key for it, and you won't get "Spell not ready" messages until the GCD completes). I suppose it's possible that, if the SPELL_CAST_START event is server-side, large ping on the first cast and low ping on the second could lead to a sub-1s difference even with a 1s GCD

[Edit] I'm looking into better ways to confirm that it's lowering the GCD, but there's also other news I almost forgot. I tested some of the mana returns from Moonkin Form. Hurricane, as mentioned, does not refund mana, but Starfall and Typhoon both do. I'm fairly certain that there's no internal cooldown, but as my testing was limited to a single target I'm not positive how it will interact with Starfall and Typhoon completely yet.

Krag · 09/18/08, 12:01 AM

New post from GC

Calm down there, you frenzied owlkin.

Your Naxx 10 gear has ~200 crit and 80 spirit on the 5 pieces. We don't like talking about gear drops too specifically because even though you can find the information data-mined everywhere, for some players it's actually a spoiler.

The talent change will probably be to Improved Moonkin Form -- your aura grants haste and you convert 15% Spirit into damage. The idea is not to make you stack Spirit, but to make you feel better about the Spirit all casters are going to end up picking up on their gear.

We want you to have Spirit. Spirit means better mana regen. It's too easy for casters to just stack damage and ignore regen and then blame the game mechanics when they are OOM. If we wanted mana to be irrelevant we would just make everything cooldown-based, yanno?

Casters also like to stack damage and ignore health and then blame the healers... but one step at a time.

On the other hand, we're having trouble getting Resto druids to ever run out of mana.

Earth and Moon is one of those talents that might feel wasted if someone with the same ability shows up to a raid. To make these talents more attractive, and more useful when they are acting redundant, we are giving those that are deeper in the trees a little bit of a selfish buff as well. In this case it's +5% damage for you only. That's not a bad use of points, even if you ignore the [fairly massive] debuff part of the talent.

Seems like the added personal gain from "raid talents" that DKs saw will be a common trend, which seems like a nice solution instead of either having truly min/max players constantly respec or be annoyed about potentially wasted talent points.

erragal · 09/18/08, 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by Krag

New post from GC

Seems like the added personal gain from "raid talents" that DKs saw will be a common trend, which seems like a nice solution instead of either having truly min/max players constantly respec or be annoyed about potentially wasted talent points.

I was just coming here to post this!

I wonder if they'll be adding something to IFF as well. He didn't mention it specifically, so it's certainly an option.

E&M is going to be really powerful after this change. I still wish our tier gear was designed more like the mage/warlocks sets with only 2/5 pieces with spirit, but at least we'll be getting a bit more out of it.

Axanor · 09/18/08, 1:07 AM

Is there anyone with Beta Forum access that could post up a link to the Moonkin Manifesto thread in the thread GC keeps posting in?

Alerian · 09/18/08, 1:16 AM

Follow-up Ghostcrawler post in that thread:

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

Don't thank me. I'm just the messenger. These changes are the result of a collaboration among all the designers, such as your friend Koraa.

Improved Faerie Fire does a 1/2/3% crit on the target just for you. These effects do stack with the raid-wide aspect of the buff. That's the point. We are going to be looking to add these to similar talents in all classes, or at least the deep ones.

Don't assume that just because you aren't running out of mana now that you should neglect mana regen. Both mana regen alone and mana from Replenishment are probably to generous at the moment.

We're still working on Balance. We have some more solid dps numbers now and we're going to make changes to many classes to smooth out the differences.

I noticed that the new beta build appears to have these new things put in, based on the talent calculators up at: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?druid

Axanor · 09/18/08, 1:41 AM

Originally Posted by Alerian

Follow-up Ghostcrawler post in that thread:

It's incredible that in the past two passes they've made at the balance tree, they've managed to make it even more bloated than it was before.

Lambach · 09/18/08, 1:41 AM

Yeah,
I'm a bit confused, I can't find where ghostwalker is posting all these things.

About bloat:
Yeah, it just went from, "we can take the aoe talents, if we are able to get another person in the raid to go take the buff for us. We have to respec, but at least we can pick them up.

Now its "Its a dps loss to take the aoe talents, we can never have them"

Currently, we cant take our 41 and 51 point talents....ever. I know MS warriors and destro locks have been suffering with similar issues and I feel for them. But hopefully those times are gone, and before wotlk goes live.

Edit: Posted a link from moonkin manifesto over in the ghostwalker thread.

Alerian · 09/18/08, 1:44 AM

Originally Posted by Lambach

Yeah,
I'm a bit confused, I can't find where ghostwalker is posting all these things.

They are at: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Re: Balance @ GC or Koraa

erragal · 09/18/08, 2:14 AM

Talent Trees up on MMO-Champion.

Huge overall nerf to Eclipse

It's now 100% on Starfire crit for the Wrath buff, 60% on wrath crit for the Starfire buff. 15 second duration 30 second cooldown. Was very powerful before, now it just seems a little weak for three talent points (Feels like it would be great at one point however).

E&M was changed so it's always 100% chance, but you need 5 points for the full 13%, 4 points for 10%. It has the 5% spell damage addition too, seems to be a must take 5 pointer now.

Axanor · 09/18/08, 2:18 AM

All these tacked-on bonuses to Celestial Focus, IFF, and Earth and Moon are just terrible, and are band-aid fixes to what's ultimately a bad design in the lower part of the Balance tree.

Munorion · 09/18/08, 5:06 AM

One thing to note is that the replenishment effect has been halved for all classes that can provide it. Which means, if we go by what Adorielle wrote here: Moonkin WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion that it is now in line with what Intensity and Mana Spring/JoW give.

Metrosexuelf · 09/18/08, 5:52 AM

I understand what they are trying to do since multiple classes can cover what those talents covered but, as mentioned, there is way too much bloat in the Balance tree. True, they don't want people to cherry pick the best talents and have a bunch of sub par talents but the choices and trade offs you have to make now are too extreme.

What they need to do to Balance is what they did to the mage's Frost tree in this build: Made a bunch of talents that were previously five points into three point talents. Vengeance and Moonfury would be prime candidates for such a change. Also Imp Insert Swarm could be dropped down a point or two. Gale Winds should probably just be morphed on to the spells.

Munorion · 09/18/08, 6:00 AM

Hm, Feral Faerie Fire got changed so that it deals damage and increased threat when cast in bear form. This raises an interesting question: Will bears be able to use it on targets that have Imp FF on them, or do they get the ""A more powerful debuff is active" error?
Another point is: Does the bonus damage from Imp FF require Imp FF on the target or can it be any FF at all?

Anaram · 09/18/08, 6:05 AM

Originally Posted by Munorion

Hm, Feral Faerie Fire got changed so that it deals damage and increased threat when cast in bear form. This raises an interesting question: Will bears be able to use it on targets that have Imp FF on them, or do they get the ""A more powerful debuff is active" error?

As a rule any ability which does initial damage (or initial healing) is never prevented by an existing debuff. It also never replaces a stronger debuff. This is, of course, barring possible bugs etc.

Roywyn · 09/18/08, 6:48 AM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

[Edit] I'm looking into better ways to confirm that it's lowering the GCD, but there's also other news I almost forgot. I tested some of the mana returns from Moonkin Form. Hurricane, as mentioned, does not refund mana, but Starfall and Typhoon both do. I'm fairly certain that there's no internal cooldown, but as my testing was limited to a single target I'm not positive how it will interact with Starfall and Typhoon completely yet.

http://elitistjerks.com/824268-post399.html
Includes a macro and an instruction to display the true GCD if a spell cast.
Nothing so far has been able to go below 1.0s.

Axanor · 09/18/08, 9:16 AM

Originally Posted by Metrosexuelf

I understand what they are trying to do since multiple classes can cover what those talents covered but, as mentioned, there is way too much bloat in the Balance tree. True, they don't want people to cherry pick the best talents and have a bunch of sub par talents but the choices and trade offs you have to make now are too extreme.

What they need to do to Balance is what they did to the mage's Frost tree in this build: Made a bunch of talents that were previously five points into three point talents. Vengeance and Moonfury would be prime candidates for such a change. Also Imp Insert Swarm could be dropped down a point or two. Gale Winds should probably just be morphed on to the spells.

It actually still doesn't solve the big problem, which is that they added all of the new stuff between talent points 41-51 (as well as requiring an extra point in Resto), and with only 10 new talent points to work with, the math doesn't work out.

erragal · 09/18/08, 9:33 AM

Originally Posted by Axanor

It actually still doesn't solve the big problem, which is that they added all of the new stuff between talent points 41-51 (as well as requiring an extra point in Resto), and with only 10 new talent points to work with, the math doesn't work out.

If you read multiple posts by the class developers, they do not want 'the math to work out'. They want you to make decisions between talents so that there are hard choices to make. The real error with this methodology is shown with Erdluf's math a few pages back: every talent is going to be explored to establish a comparative value, and only the absolute best ones will/should be taken. Even by the people who don't care much about theorycraft, they'll armory up a known balance druid and just copy their spec.

I actually like that they want to make difficult choices for us, but they may not be going about it in a way that will accomplish their goal. I would not expect that 'bloat' to go away, instead it might be better to push for more distinctive choices near the end of the tree. The possibility of two branching talent paths where one is heavily DoT focused and the other nuke focused could give actual playstyle differences while maintaining DPS balance.

Ulthwithian · 09/18/08, 11:02 AM

My concern with the bloat, such as it is, is that it's preventing us from taking our talented 'skills', specifically Starfall and Typhoon. As someone said above, we now have almost no way of taking these talents. This seems very counterintuitive to talent tree design.

Having to 'make choices' is perfectly fine, but not when I might have to change my spec every other run to make sure I cover the right buffs/debuffs. A better 'choice' alternative would be to specialize in Nature or Arcane damage for the Balance tree. Then, you will have made a choice, but that choice once made would change rarely if ever.

Their current implementation is not meeting their stated design goals, IMO.