Kittenor

Moonkin frenzy in its current state is a bit less than a 3% increase by my crude numbers, if getting hit around once every 10secs. The talent is pretty close to where it should be...IF you're getting hit. IMO, could do with being bumped to 15% damage and/or 15 seconds duration.

With regards to eclipse, a lightning capacitor type charge that accrued with SF crits, and then on next wrath cast provided the damage buff for (up to 5 charges) * 3 seconds, and then while casting the wraths, crits were accruing for duration of the starfire crit buff. Balance the damage and crit bonuses and the durations they last per charge against the time expected to generate 5 crits, and you've got a talent that encourages mixing spells, provides variability for when to use trinkets / haste buffs, and provides an interesting and new aspect to the spec.

 

Erdluf

If you were hit exactly once every 10.001 seconds, you'd have 10% extra damage, 15% of the time, and you'd never get pushback protection. That would be a 1.5% DPS boost.

If you were hit exactly once every 5.001 seconds, the 10% extra damage boost would be worth 3% to overall DPS. With SF spam, you'd also avoid .5s of pushback about every 30-35s, which would be about another 1.5% boost to DPS.

From a DPS standpoint, we can say that OF is a pretty good talent (1.5%/talent point) if you take damage every 5s. It is a pretty poor talent (0.5%/talent point) if you take damage every 10s.

 

Kathbrian

I think it would be better if it was activated or attached to Barkskin or something, having to rely on the RNG makes PvP unfun.

I probably won't take it in its current state, unless there are multiple fights similar to Vael.

 

Fauxpaz

Eclipse is going to be interesting. I would like Blizz to work on it more as I feel it has potential to be really good, as it is now, it is so-so at best. Once the theory crafters come up with the best way to maximize Eclipse, it will be as easy as downloading a mod to get the most out of it. Thus our rotations complexity changes very little.

Eclipses purpose is for moonkins to be more diverse in their DPS rotations. "Think on your feet to maximze your DPS" kind of mentality, which is a great way to keep people from begging bored. But, Eclipse can be manipulated to whatever means we want pretty easily depending on the situation and how my below questions actually effect overall DPS and mana efficiency.

Eclipse can always be ignored. I am sure on some fights or encounters this will happen. If it is ignored all the time, then you wasted 1 to 3 points in Eclipse number one, number two this discussion doesn't effect you.

If today, you spam starfire or wrath for certain reasons/situations, this will not change in WolK when Eclipse is on cooldown and no Eclipse buff is present. So, we have two questions to figure out. How to proc Eclipse and how to maximize its buff depending on the situation. I will tackle the second question first.

What you have to decide is do we want to max our DPS or do we want to max our mana efficiency? If we want to max our DPS for the 15 secs Eclipse is available, we start to spam starfire till it procs. Then we go back to wrath spamming. If we want to max our mana efficiency, we will spam wrath till Eclipse procs and then spam starfire. The 10% crit increase will mean we crit more (each crit refunds 2% of our total mana). Seems easy to understand.

Back to my first question, how to proc Eclipse. Starfire is 100% chance on crit to proc Eclipse and Wrath is 60% chance to proc on cirt (assuming Eclipse is not on CD). What this means, is if you want to gain 10% Wrath damage increase, you have to crit with starfire. This could take between 1 and 4 attempts (possibly more if you are having some really bad luck). During this time, we are using a lower DPS higher mana efficiency spell rotation until we get the intended effect. Most likely, we will use one too many starfires as well, since the buff may be a half second behind our spell rotation. Thus, we can only capitalize on 12 secs of increased wrath damage. Same problem when we spam wrath to get 10% increase crit chance on starfire.

It is this period of time, trying to proc Eclipse, we may be losing DPS or mana efficiency for a small increase in damage or mana efficiency. The net benefit may be very little if anything when all the theory crafting is done. On Beta, Eclipse is fun and useful when grinding. But when I hit 80 and try to maximize my raid DPS and/or PvP effectiveness, I have a feeling that it will not be as useful. We haven’t even explored all areas of our DPS rotation using Eclipse. Such as if it is worth refreshing IS and MF when Eclipse is active.

These questions and scenarios will take some time to figure out, but once we know them most of us will write macros and use mods that will make our DPS button pushing as simple as it is today.

 

Kittenor

Edit: Guess it depends on whether you still take pushback when the talent procs. Defeats the whole purpose of the talent if you do IMO.

If you got hit once every 10.001 seconds WITHOUT the talent, for 0.5 sec pushback, you'd effectively be doing damage for 9.5 out of 10 secs, so lets call this 95% dps.

If you get hit once every 10.001 seconds WITH the talent, assume the 0.5sec pushback isn't included due to the proc, then you'll have 15% chance for 10 seconds at 110% dps, and 85% chance for 10 seconds at 95% dps, or 97.25% averaged out.

So the 3 point talent is worth 2.25% damage.

If you get hit less often than 10.001 seconds, then it reduces in power, and hence could probably use a buff.

If you get hit more often than 10.001 seconds, then it starts to really ramp up in power, as you avoided 2 pushbacks off the one proc. For a hit every 5.001 seconds, you're looking at 90% cast time available without the talent, and then 110% with a proc, 15% proc chance puts this as a 3% damage increase.

Now, these are two optimal scenarios, and if you're getting hit less often then the increase OVER WHAT YOU'D DO WITHOUT THE TALENT is less, but its around 2-3% damage increase. Given that its based on the requirement that you're getting hit in the first place, could easily be bumped up to around 20-25% proc chance and still be reasonable.

 

skeldi

At 25%, that'd probably be probably be overpowered for PVP. Consider a scenario where a rogue is on you, hitting you approximately every 1 second. You'd almost constantly be in a frenzied state (can hunters tranq shot frenzied moonkins?). Not that you'd be able to use it much with a rogue constantly on you (KICK!)

I don't know a good fix for owlkin frenzy that would make it more useful in pvp or pve. It just seems like an "alright, but not over anything else" talent for pve, and a "decent against dual wielders" talent for pvp.

 

Latherus

For Moonkin Scribes what is the ideal setup for PvE raiding: Lessor, Minor and Greater Glyphs as of right now?

I have not found a forward setup as of yet, I apologize if one has been posted previous.

 

Kayoto

I believe Glyphs have been simplified to 3 Major and 3 Minor glyphs per character.

I think Inscription grants 1 extra Major slot, not entirely sure though.

Wowhead: LF1M: You! has a fairly up to date list of the currently implemented glyphs, as far as I know.

 

Spiry

There are now only two types of glyph: Major and Minor; 3 of each.

As for major glyphs I'd go with Starfire, Moonfire and Insect Swarm.

Minor have no real effect and I've not looked into them much.

 

◊ Lord BEEF

The insect swarm glyph is pretty frustrating in my opinion. The debuff it provides without the glyph is pretty massive at 5% avoidance. I wish it was competitive damage without removing that. We'll see what changes they make in the upcoming build.

 

Rannasha

The miss debuff is also applied by Hunters though. If you're raiding 25mans, than you can fairly safely use the IS glyph and let a Hunter provide the miss debuff.

 

◊ Lord BEEF

I haven't followed them that close in beta, but doesn't using scorpid sting lower their damage since they forfeit a damage sting?

 

Spiry

I hadn't considered the loss of hit.

There is next to no way a hunter ,trying to maximise his DPS in order to stay competitive, would use Scorpid sting over a now scaling Serpent sting.

But then would a moonkin trying to be competitive DPS not use the glyph?

Exactly how important is the miss debuff for tanks?

 

• Adoriele

Serpent sting's been regarded as a waste of a GCD for a while, I don't know how well it got buffed in Wrath. Viper Sting's useful only in gimmick fights, and Wyvern's a PvP/CC sting, so it doesn't conflict with those. Plus, if the Hunter is Marksman, they only need to cast Scorpid once, then Chimaera to keep it up, whereas we'll need to keep using GCDs on IS, which may be a DPS hit for us without the glyph. I don't know how Chimaera, at 125% weapon damage, stands as a use of a GCD.

 

Lambach

A lot of their talents have been worked into stings, and if they are "wasting" the gcd as you say, to max their dps itd be best that that GCD did some dmg instead of zero.

 

Spiry

Steady shot glyph adds extra damage to steady shot if SERPENT sting is on the target, and you can bet your bottom dollar that raiding hunters will have that glyph, however not sure if it's your serpent sting or just a serpent sting.

Noxious stings increases a survival hunter's damage on the target by 3% if he has his serpent sting up.

Chimera shot only does the additional damage based on your sting too.

This leaves BM hunters to waste their GCD on scorpid sting, and then that leads to the steady shot glyph going to waste.

 

◊ Lord BEEF

5% is a pretty big deal. Tanks at the naxx level will be running around 30-40% avoidance last I checked (this could be way off as there have been avoidance changes very recently). This makes it reduce the incoming physical damage that the tank takes by about 7%, and that becomes worth more as their avoidance increases.

If you're doing a 25 man raid, you'll likely be willing to trade a couple hundred raid dps for a tank that takes 7% less damage.

 

Ursanis

By the way, on ptr the tooltip for IS actually says it's 3% miss. Is that a bug?

 

◊ Lord BEEF

It was showing for me as 3% with the glyph on. 5% without. The glyph is supposed to remove it completely. To be honest I'm not sure where it's supposed to be, but I'm assuming it's 5% without the glyph

 

Kaug

Last i read, inscriptions can be changed quite often. On some beta forum, I read that when you apply X inscription you can't reapply that 1 for one hr. So you could go in with IS glyph, change to something else (all 3 of them) for X fight and then back afterward. Depending on how expensive the mats end up being and they look pretty cheap, we may be changing them from fight to fight. Assuming that the time out stays the same when Wrath goes live.

I'd guess that the 5% miss will be very valuable on a lot of fights, less so on others and less and less useful as your tanks gear up in said instance. Kind of like how it was in BC. I used to use it a lot initially, but as our tanks got better geared i ended up using it for the debuff on less and less fights. I still use it vs ROS P1 and Bloodboil for example and in fights where i expect silences or aoe that makes me move a lot. Supremus about to hit P2 dot him up

 

Munorion

WotLK wiki claims that you can't change glyphs everywhere anymore:
While in princple you still can re-glyph before and after a fight, it'll mean a port and summon back. On the bright side, while you're in Dalaran (or wherever) to re-glyph, you might as well use the opportunity to respec for the next fight too

I haven't seen this change posted anywhere else, so can anybody in beta confirm this?

 

Rannasha

I've run into the Lexicon-requirement on the PTR last weekend, so i suppose it's in the beta too.

 

Boswell

When using a Moonfire+Starfire rotation, wouldn't Insect Swarm be worth using since you can pretty much keep Moonfire up with the Glyph after only applying it once? Or is Insect Swarm not going to be worth it until 2pc Tier 7? I did Sartharion (Obsidian Sanctum 10 man raid) and managed to keep up fine with warlocks and all the other DPS. For me, Insect Swarm seems pretty worth it to cast especially if you have the Glyph for it.

Yeah, I can confirm it on beta. You'll need to be beside a Lexicon to equip them, no big deal. It's like being at a mana loom to make cloth.

If talents remain as they are, this is the only spec that makes sense to me. http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...05213035000051

 

Arazan

No dreamstate? And have you noticed enough pulsing aoe in pve to justify taking Owlkin Frenzy?

Also, since they're reportedly going to increase the damage done by buffing IS and starfire's base damages, have anyone considered taking 3/5 Genesis rather than 3/3 Moonglow?

 

Axanor

Dreamstate's a PvP talent. When 3.0 comes out, the Crit->2% mana refund mechanic and Clearcasting really trivialize our mana regen issues.