Moonkin WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion - Page 37

boomchicken · 09/24/08, 2:26 PM

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...05113335001250

Talent build I currently was thinking of.

Glyphs doing Starfire and Moonfire and for the third am torn between IS and innervate. I am currently thinking Innervate cause the pepople I raid with I always use it every boss fight either for myelf or healers/sp. The reason for not possibly getting the IS glyph is cause am not sure with our hunters they have not decided so our raids might need the 5% from me.

Will start with basic resto and got OOC. With our crit numbers am guessing mana will hopefully be not an issue to have to get Intensity. Disclaimer I have not gotten into any raids on beta because my moonkin is only 72.

Starlight Wraith common for Tier 1, Moonglow and Nature's Majesty common for tier two. Here is the question I have tho, with this build I am taking Improved moonfire, I know the glyph reduces the inital damage but figure the 10% would be better for the dot part since will be keeping it up with th glyphs making it two points well used. If I am confused about this please correct me. Nature's Grace and Nature' Reach both common for tier 3. Vengeance common for Tier 4. Tier 5 I get Luncar Guidance, IS and IIS. Questions I have and not been able to figure out about IIS is that do you have to have IS up to get the moonfire/starfire bonus. Anyone confirm this?

Tier 6 I went with Moonfure and only one point in balance of power(will explain my reasoning in asec). Tier 7 Moonkin form and improved moonkin form with three points in improved FF. I know it can be covered by SP, but in my guild of core raiders our two SP are hit and miss, they could raid for straight for a week and then not be seen for two weeks. Since I will be casting it I figured I could take one point out of balanc of power since I am getting my spell hit from FF and it always been in my rotation in BC cause in order to raid my guild required me to have it, granted Wotlk will not be the case but am used to it so figured I would keep it and get the extra crit for more mana regen from moonkin form.

Tier 8 Wrath of Cenarius is a no brainer but after reading some of the discussions I decided to get owlkin frenzy. Again I have not been in any beta raids to know if it is worth it or not but I trust what others are saying. If would not get that could but the thee points into one of these celestial focus for 3% haste, brambles to up tree damage but I tested it out and was not impress with how much they actual hit harder in beta, typhoon maybe if they fix the spell but am not impressed with it either, starfall is ok but again not impressed, or into intensity or dreamstate(if the every fix it to not be inferior.)

Tiers 9, 10 and 11 I get treants cause I use them alot on boss fights and some figured they good dps, gale winds to keep up with aoe damage and earth and moon for 5% damage for myself even if it overlaps with the locks/deathknights.

This is what I am currently thinking am wondering if it similar to what others are thinking or finding on beta. Currently I have not run into mana issues so far and am theoryizing about raids. Looking for imput from others on beta that have possibly gotten into raids and what they have found.

Again questions are:

1. Does Improved Moonfire just affect the inital damage or the dot making it with putting two points into withthe glyph to boost the dps.

2. Do you have to have IS up to get the moonfire/starfire bonus? I will be casting it anyways to the 5% for our tanks, but if some reason I hunters do change would I still get the benefit if I did not cast it then.

3. Owlkin frenzy worth three points for the increased damage on bosses aoe or not. (see ongoing debate)

4. With current raids wide buffs will we have enough mana regen from moonkin form and OoC?

These are the issues I am looking at on beta right now.

• Adoriele · 09/24/08, 2:30 PM

Originally Posted by Axanor

Dreamstate's a PvP talent. When 3.0 comes out, the Crit->2% mana refund mechanic and Clearcasting really trivialize our mana regen issues.

Um, no. Even with Eclipse and iISed MF up, you're going to get about half the regen of Dreamstate from OoC (121 vs. ~52). Note, this is assuming 6%, 10s ICD, but OoC would need to be significantly buffed to match Dreamstate.

For comparison on Starfire Spam(Realize I'm cheating by taking every single talent here just to get numbers):

Buff	MP5	Per Point
Moonkin Form, Eclipse and iISed Moonfire	509	509
Moonkin Form, neither	380	380
100%-uptime Replenishment	267	-
Intensity	246	82
Dreamstate	121	40
Blessing of Wisdom	109	-
Moonglow	109	36
Mana Spring	106	-
OoC, Eclipse and iISed Moonfire	53	53
OoC, neither	52	52

Axanor · 09/24/08, 2:34 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

Um, no. Even with Eclipse and iISed MF up, you're going to get about half the regen of Dreamstate from OoC (121 vs. ~52). Note, this is assuming 6%, 10s ICD, but OoC would need to be significantly buffed to match Dreamstate.

OoC is 1 talent point, Dreamstate is 3. (52>40) The big difference is the crit->2% mana back. I can't see how you'd go Oom currently seeing how high critrates are in raids at the moment.

Boswell · 09/24/08, 3:16 PM

Originally Posted by Arazan

And have you noticed enough pulsing aoe in pve to justify taking Owlkin Frenzy?

Felmyst - Aura ticks every second
Brutallus - Standing there chain casting and getting slashed, if Owlkin Frenzy procs it's definitely an increase.
Eredar Twins - Pretty obvious
M'uru - Standing in one place and chain casting while taking ticks of negative energy, and constant negative energy in p2
Kil'Jaeden - Flame darts/Shield Orbs/Legion lightning/Fire bloom

If Blizzard continues this trend I'm pretty sure Owlkin will be very useful, since we only get 50% pushback protection from a holy paladin and every other caster class should have over 100% protection. Do you know how hard Entropius 1.0 was to kill pre-nerf when you take pushback from negative energy hits? Fights like that where every little point of DPS is vital and push back does play a significant difference not to mention the dps increase it comes with too. I'm pretty sure there aren't going to be a lot of fights where the raid isn't taking constant damage. Just look at all the new heals/talents they've given every healer.

My point is that Owlkin Frenzy is generally a very good talent to have in a standard build. If you don't get 3/3 Owlkin what would you be getting? 3/3 Dreamstate?

Let me remind you:

Originally Posted by Manly

More mana + more time = more damage?
In PVE, 'more time' does not exists. If you kill a boss in 3 min, having more mana doesn't means you get to dps for 3:30. Thus, more mana is not more dps.

mana regen is not a DPS stat

if mana regen is not dps, then how do you balance caster dps ?
logically, you can *only* balance caster dps based on max dps cycle; ie: ignore mana concerns.

• Adoriele · 09/24/08, 3:38 PM

Originally Posted by Boswell

Let me remind you:

Originally Posted by manly

More mana + more time = more damage?
In PVE, 'more time' does not exists. If you kill a boss in 3 min, having more mana doesn't means you get to dps for 3:30. Thus, more mana is not more dps.

mana regen is not a DPS stat

if mana regen is not dps, then how do you balance caster dps ?
logically, you can *only* balance caster dps based on max dps cycle; ie: ignore mana concerns.

This. This, this, and more this. As it stands, Starfire costs 1200 MP5 fully buffed. Raid buffs counter 482 of that, and the rest has to come from talents. You can get away with having less than 1200 total regen, because you have a buffer, but you really do need to play it such that you have as close to 0 mana at the end of a fight. This is immensely easier now that chain-potting has been nerfed. Pots restore a much more consistent amount (1800-3000 Super, 4200-4400 Runic), so either you have your starting mana, or your starting mana +4200 (better to plan worst-case). With a pot, we'll have about 25k mana to spend, so on a 5-minute fight (60 MP5 'ticks'), we can afford to be shy by about 417 MP5. Which leaves us needing to cover about 300 MP5 for parity (dropping the pot raises that to about 360 MP5). This is easily covered by Moonkin Form. Granted, this is the least mana-consumptive rotation, but we still have OoC, Moonglow, and Dreamstate at the bottom of the list. Unfortunately, we're all but forced to drop a point in Moonglow, even though it gives the worst returns point-for-point.

Boswell · 09/24/08, 3:50 PM

Originally Posted by Beta Build 8982

Wrath(Rank 12):
Build 8970 damage: 493 to 555
Build 8982 damage: 553 to 623

Starfire(Rank 10):
Build 8970: 870 to 1022
Build 8982: 1028 to 1212

Insect Swarm(Rank 7):
Build 8970: 1050 damage over 12 sec.
Build 8982: 1290 damage over 12 sec.

With the Starfire Glyph, Moonfire can be kept up pretty well with having to refresh it very rarely. With the changes for Insect Swarm is it safe to say that it's good enough to be used? (Assuming Insect Swarm Glyph and 3/3 IIS)

Arazan · 09/24/08, 4:21 PM

Originally Posted by Axanor

Dreamstate's a PvP talent. When 3.0 comes out, the Crit->2% mana refund mechanic and Clearcasting really trivialize our mana regen issues.

Dreamstate could easily end up being 60-70 mp5 for 3 talent points, which is very remarkable. Also note that the change to moonkin form is *NOT* 2% mana for every crit, but a chance to regenerate 2% mana on crits. What percentage or PPM system they end up giving it hasn't been ironed out, as far as I know.

Also, I meant have you seen aoe in WoLK raids/dungeons to justify 3/3 owlkin frenzy. If you look across all 10+ man raid encounters in TBC, the average would come out to being hit probably once every 8-10 seconds, which would only result in an average of about 3% owlkin frenzy uptime, which means that you're spending 3 points for 1% damage each.

I guess my point is that Owlkin Frenzy seems too situational and conditional for me to justify taking it over dreamstate, force of nature, improved faerie fire, eclipse, or even perhaps nature's splendor.

Also, Manly's analysis is incomplete. No, mp5 is not a dps stat, however you must be able to continuously cast to DPS, so it's not irrelevant. It would be like saying that all mages in TBC should have just spec'ed arcane and used AB spam because, if they ran out of mana, c'est la vie and it's all irrelevant. If you can't sustain a cast rotation for a raid encounter, then mp5/spirit DO become important stats, just not dps stats. You don't want to be fully self-sustaining, but you do need to be able to sustain casting long enough to kill the boss.

If you have no problems sustaining casting, then there's no need to take a talent like dreamstate. If, however, not having dreamstate is keeping you from casting those last 10 starfires, then it becomes a pseudo-dps stat. In other words, having more gas in the tank doesn't make your car go faster, but you can't get far on an empty tank.

• Adoriele · 09/24/08, 4:28 PM

Originally Posted by Boswell

With the Starfire Glyph, Moonfire can be kept up pretty well with having to refresh it very rarely. With the changes for Insect Swarm is it safe to say that it's good enough to be used? (Assuming Insect Swarm Glyph and 3/3 IIS)

The old problem with IS was that it was a lot easier to get Arcane damage multipliers, so it didn't scale too well. 30% scaling helps this, but increasing the base damage just pushes back the point where it's no longer useful. Compounding this, IS only gets 30% scaling from a glyph, whereas MF gets 75%. MF is also affected by Moonfury and iMF, and increases the scaling of our main nuke (Which, by the way, just got a 200 DPS upgrade with the changes, compared to Wrath's 100 DPS upgrade. No question which is our main Nuke now).

In the end, the point at which you no longer cast IS is when spending the GCD on it provides less damage than spending it on half (or so) of a Starfire cast. If you give me a few, I can come up with the equation for that, but my guess is that, much like TBC, IS will be worth casting near the beginning of the expansion cycle, but eventually get weeded out.

Roywyn · 09/24/08, 4:48 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

This. This, this, and more this. As it stands, Starfire costs 1200 MP5 fully buffed. Raid buffs counter 482 of that, and the rest has to come from talents. You can get away with having less than 1200 total regen, because you have a buffer, but you really do need to play it such that you have as close to 0 mana at the end of a fight. This is immensely easier now that chain-potting has been nerfed. Pots restore a much more consistent amount (1800-3000 Super, 4200-4400 Runic), so either you have your starting mana, or your starting mana +4200 (better to plan worst-case). With a pot, we'll have about 25k mana to spend, so on a 5-minute fight (60 MP5 'ticks'), we can afford to be shy by about 417 MP5. Which leaves us needing to cover about 300 MP5 for parity (dropping the pot raises that to about 360 MP5). This is easily covered by Moonkin Form. Granted, this is the least mana-consumptive rotation, but we still have OoC, Moonglow, and Dreamstate at the bottom of the list. Unfortunately, we're all but forced to drop a point in Moonglow, even though it gives the worst returns point-for-point.

You seem to have forgotten Judgement of Wisdom which roughly doubles your mana from outside.
It should grant you around 400-500 mp5 in Naxxramas-10 gear and will probably make or break your mana.
Or am I missing something there?

And yes, it's pretty annoying to rely on that one buff for competitive performance.
Especially when it renders all mana issues pointlessly trivial.
(Grants 2% of your mana every hit, 4s internal cooldown.)

• Adoriele · 09/24/08, 4:57 PM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

You seem to have forgotten Judgement of Wisdom which roughly doubles your mana from outside.
It should grant you around 400-500 mp5 in Naxxramas-10 gear and will probably make or break your mana.
Or am I missing something there?

And yes, it's pretty annoying to rely on that one buff for competitive performance.
Especially when it renders all mana issues pointlessly trivial.
(Grants 2% of your mana every hit, 4s internal cooldown.)

Actually, I had forgotten it, yes. I'll have to add it into the sheet to get a better idea of what kind of return it should give, but it's likely to make mana a non-issue for us, at least spamming starfire. I don't know how likely it is to be judged, though. Assuming a 10-man, you'll likely only have 1 Paladin, and 2 of the 3 specs will probably be judging something else. 25-man you'll probably have it, though.

◊ Lord BEEF · 09/24/08, 5:26 PM

New build coming, with increases to damage on starfire, wrath, and insect swarm.

Starfire goes up by roughly 400 base damage on max rank. That should be a pretty dramatic improvement.

Eclipse also changed to give 15% crit to starfire (10% wrath damage remains).

◊ Pudgeball · 09/24/08, 5:35 PM

Eclipse is still intriguing to me.
I want to test a couple different rotations out regarding it once I hit 80 in the next day or so, especially now with the new base damages.

Also this may seem like a silly question, but I'm not home to test, and someone may know - Does NG lower the Global down to 1.0 on the spell that you cast with it? I forget if this is the case or not.

I know theres been many times when it seems like I chain gunned out wraths pretty fast.

• Adoriele · 09/24/08, 5:41 PM

Originally Posted by Pudgeball

Eclipse is still intriguing to me.
I want to test a couple different rotations out regarding it once I hit 80 in the next day or so, especially now with the new base damages.

Also this may seem like a silly question, but I'm not home to test, and someone may know - Does NG lower the Global down to 1.0 on the spell that you cast with it? I forget if this is the case or not.

I know theres been many times when it seems like I chain gunned out wraths pretty fast.

NG only lowers the GCD incurred by Wrath, and does so by 'pretending' that you have 50% more haste than you do (i.e. if you have 11% haste, it pretends that you have 61%). This keeps all implications, including that haste can never lower your GCD past 1.0s. What this really means is that your GCD from casting Wrath under NG is always exactly 1.0s.

[edit]Having done the math on it, it looks like IS actually has positive scaling now (relative to Starfire), which will make it actually useful to cast at all points. This was based on the assumption that you have iIS and are keeping a Moonfire rider up with Starfire Spam (4T7, All SF talents, no eclipse, 200ms latency), with full Genesis, Nature's Splendor, and the IS Glyph. Dropping Genesis keeps the scaling positive, dropping Nature's Splendor makes it slightly negative, dropping the Glyph tanks it. At the lowest possible scenario, you'd need only 876 Spellpower to make IS worthless. Glyphed, with no talents, you'd need 7186 Spellpower (no, not a typo). So realistically, as long as you have the Glyph, IS is worth casting.

Erdluf · 09/24/08, 6:13 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

In the end, the point at which you no longer cast IS is when spending the GCD on it provides less damage than spending it on half (or so) of a Starfire cast. If you give me a few, I can come up with the equation for that, but my guess is that, much like TBC, IS will be worth casting near the beginning of the expansion cycle, but eventually get weeded out.

Quick spreadsheet math for Spellpower scaling (ignoring tier bonuses or anything that applies to both IS and SF).

===============
IS: 76% base coef. 7/6 from Nature's Splendor. 30% from IS glyph. 5% from 5/5 Genesis, but you'll spend at most one point there (and I'll assume you spend that point in Moonglow instead).

1290 base damage * 7/6 * 1.3 = 1957 base damage per GC.
76% * 7/6 * 1.3 = 115.3% +spell per GC.

===============
SF: 100% base. +20% from WoC. Roughly +50% from crit. The free background MF DoT associated with each SF is 4% base +75% (glyph) + 10% (Improved Moonfire). Both get 10% (Moonfury). Time is roughly 1.75 GC's (Nature's Grace).

(1120 base (SF) * 1.5 + 200 (MF) *1.75*1.1) * 1.1 / 1.75 = 1298 base SF per GC.
(100% * 1.2 * 1.5 + 4%*1.75*1.1) * 1.1 / 1.75 = 118.0% per GC.

===============
Wrath is 57% coef base. +10% WoC. Roughly 7% from IIS and Eclipse. 45% from crit. 10% from Moonfury. At 20% haste and 45% crit, the average Wrath takes (.55*1.5/1.2 + .45*1) / (1.5/1.2) = .91 GC's to cast.

Base/GC = 588 * 1.07 * 1.45 * 1.1 / .91 = 1103 base Wrath per GC
Coef = (57%+10%)*1.07*1.45*1.1/.91 = 125.7% spell coef per GC.

===============
So IS damage/GC minus SF damage per GC is
659 - 2.7% spellpower.
You won't drop IS for SF (at zero lag and no tier bonus) at 50% SF crit until you hit over 24k +spell. "Eventually" seems to be way down the road, unless we see a new arcane-only or SF-only buff.

SF/GC - Wrath/GC gives
195 - 7.7% spellpower
so Wrath DPS (which starts behind SF dps now, at least with these numbers), catches up at 2545 +spell (but by then you'll have even more haste, making Wrath look even worse).

With these numbers Wrath is dead for PvE, unless you have special considerations (mob almost dead, pushback, ...).

Edit: I agree with Adoriele that IS has positive scaling (when compared to just to SF). I was compariing to SF+MF-dot (IS SF and MF glyphs), which pushed the relative scaling slightly negative.

• Adoriele · 09/24/08, 6:20 PM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

Edit: I agree with Adoriele that IS has positive scaling (when compared to just to SF). I was compariing to SF+MF-dot (IS SF and MF glyphs), which pushed the relative scaling slightly negative.

Eh, it's not fair to compare IS to SF+MF if you're using the glyph. Given an average cast time of ~2.45s, including latency, you only need 3 Starfires per IS in order to reach the case that you can cast IS without worrying that MF will drop off accidentally (3-2.45 = .55, 1.5/.55 = 2.72->3), and you're always going to cast at least 4. Since MF will be going whether you're casting IS or not, it doesn't factor in.

erragal · 09/24/08, 7:27 PM

With the superior base damage of Starfire compared to wrath now, not only does that widen the gap between the spells for scaling purposes, it also makes Eclipse primarily used for the Starfire buff.

With the current implementation of eclipse, at 20% haste with an average of 2.2 second cast time on starfire (50% crit rate to make the math simpler) you'll just be able to fit 6 starfires during the buff if your reaction time is good and you don't need to refresh IS. I'd much rather it be back to the 30 second duration, as I had a lot of success rotating wrath in to activate the Starfire buff on the PTR, and it's much easier to keep track of the cooldown when it lines up with the buff.

Hidden · 09/24/08, 7:51 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

Actually, I had forgotten it, yes. I'll have to add it into the sheet to get a better idea of what kind of return it should give, but it's likely to make mana a non-issue for us, at least spamming starfire. I don't know how likely it is to be judged, though. Assuming a 10-man, you'll likely only have 1 Paladin, and 2 of the 3 specs will probably be judging something else. 25-man you'll probably have it, though.

There are only 3 Judgements of which now all get the 3% crit to attacks from Ret.
As Judgement of Justice is quite useless in Raids, the Paladins will either judge Wisdom or Light, so with 2 Paladins you will have JoW, with 1 you'll probably have it in most fights, too, seeing as how dependent most casters have gotten on JoW.

• Adoriele · 09/24/08, 8:31 PM

Originally Posted by Hidden

There are only 3 Judgements of which now all get the 3% crit to attacks from Ret.
As Judgement of Justice is quite useless in Raids, the Paladins will either judge Wisdom or Light, so with 2 Paladins you will have JoW, with 1 you'll probably have it in most fights, too, seeing as how dependent most casters have gotten on JoW.

Ah, okay. I'll add it into the next version of the sheet, then. Also, I'm whipping up very very simplistic models of the various spam rotations. Eclipse will probably take a bit more work, so it'll be a bit before that gets tossed in.

dedmonwakeen · 09/25/08, 8:53 AM

SimulationCraft has been updated for patch 8982, including support for Druid, Mage, Priest, Shaman, Warlock.

(This includes support for the Treant pets)

I have a default config for Moonkin, but would like feedback on talent choice and spell priorities.

#
# Balance Druid
#
# (1) The "trigger=3500" option to mana_potion represents the mana gained and the amount below max required to trigger
# (2) The "eclipse=trigger" option to wrath will make sure that it is only used to trigger the Eclipse talent
#     which means it will only be used after the cooldown is ready and the effect has not yet proc'd.
#
druid=Druid_Balance
level=80
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?druid=00000000000000000000000000000205003312000000000000000005032003025301305213305300051
actions=flask,type=blinding_light/mark_of_the_wild/moonkin_form/mana_potion,trigger=3500/innervate/faerie_fire/moonfire/insect_swarm/wrath,eclipse=trigger/starfire
gear_stamina=708
gear_intellect=687
gear_spirit=250
gear_spell_power=2004
gear_spell_crit_rating=596
gear_spell_hit_rating=12
gear_haste_rating=585
# The starfire glyph is coded with starfire refreshing moonfire, not starfall.
glyph_moonfire=1
glyph_starfire=1
glyph_insect_swarm=1
# Three Treants modeled as one pet that hits 3x hard
pet=treants
quiet=1
active=owner
# Throw in a pair of Paladins.......  Eventually these static parms will be replaced with real actors.
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_wisdom=1
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1

Results:

Player=Druid_Balance  DPS=3476.4  DPR=14.4  RPS=241.2/437.6  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=89  agility=72  stamina=872  intellect=882  spirit=424  health=12323  mana=17029
  Spell Stats:  power=2068  hit=4.5%  crit=23.1%  penetration=0  haste=17.8%  mp5=91
  Attack Stats:  power=158  hit=0.0%  crit=1.9%  expertise=0.0  penetration=0  haste=17.8%
  Actions:
    insect_swarm          Count= 30.5|11.3sec  DPE=4075|10%  DPET=3096  DPR=14.2  Miss=9.6%  Tick=817
    moonfire              Count=  3.8|90.9sec  DPE=34375|11%  DPET=25866  DPR=50.7  Miss=10.2%  Hit= 138  CritHit= 279| 289|34.3%  Tick=1155
    starfire              Count=116.3| 3.0sec  DPE=7429|72%  DPET=3393  DPR=14.3  Miss=9.4%  Hit=5164  CritHit=10329|10368|53.3%
    wrath                 Count= 23.5|14.6sec  DPE=3267| 6%  DPET=2576  DPR= 9.1  Miss=9.6%  Hit=2451  CritHit=4905|4958|42.9%

I know the default Hit Rating is way way way too low. That will be changed shortly.

Fancy graphs:

This data was generated in the context of a larger raid. The Elemental Shaman triggered Bloodlust near the end which is why there is an up-tick in damage at the end of the timeline.

erragal · 09/25/08, 9:43 AM

dedemonwakeen: I know it may be very difficult to model with simulationcraft, but there's a sizable DPS advantage to be had by applying all trinkets/destruction potion/spell damage drums and utilizing the Idol of the Moon for the initial moonfire cast. The periodic damage will stay static as long as you do not let it drop. The only thing you potentially lose is about .1-.2 seconds between the idol switch GCD and a normal spell haste affected GCD.

This also means that a destro pot (Or the even better level 80 equivalent) will be our first choice for potions until we exhaust all other methods of mana regeneration. Particularly the Naxx proc on spell cast trinkets that give almost 600 spell damage could be leveraged well at the beginning of the fight if the proc rate is high enough to go off early in the fight. There's also a new version of the DMC:Crusade that goes to 210 spell power, and should be easy to build while you use wrath at the beginning of the fight to get your first eclipse buff (If you go that route).

Erdluf had also suggested using the moonfire proc idol to get that bonus spell damage, but I don't know if it's worth using multiple GCD's on moonfire spam particularly when our moonfire initial damage is basically nil.

I cannot look at your talent choices at the moment, so hopefully someone else can take a look at them or list what they are. I do believe your Eclipse_Starfire uptime is far too high. Wrath still only has a 60% chance to trigger the Starfire buff on crit, so there will be wasted time waiting for it to trigger, and you're likely to lose at least the first two seconds switching between spells.

EDIT: Also, if we would have excess mana at the end of a fight Starfall is a slight DPS increase even on a single target. It's very expensive for that DPS increase, however.

Munorion · 09/25/08, 9:52 AM

Regarding talents:
For what it's worth, I switched from your original spec (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...05213305300051) to this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...35213305311051 and added treants as action in between Innervate and Faerie Fire. That resulted in a DPS increase of about 150.

Here is the paste from the results log:

Player=Druid_Balance  DPS=3627.0  DPR=14.2  RPS=254.6/431.3  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=89  agility=72  stamina=872  intellect=882  spirit=424  health=12323  mana=17029
  Spell Stats:  power=2173  hit=4.5%  crit=23.1%  penetration=0  haste=17.8%  mp5=91
  Attack Stats:  power=158  hit=0.0%  crit=1.9%  expertise=0.0  penetration=0  haste=17.8%
  Actions:
    insect_swarm          Count= 26.5|13.0sec  DPE=4796|10%  DPET=3646  DPR=15.8  Miss=9.5%  Tick=824
    moonfire              Count=  2.4|142.4sec  DPE=59704|12%  DPET=44916  DPR=82.3  Miss=9.7%  Hit= 150  CritHit= 303| 321|42.9%  Tick=1281
    starfire              Count=120.0| 2.9sec  DPE=7373|71%  DPET=3363  DPR=13.3  Miss=9.6%  Hit=5141  CritHit=10282|10327|53.0%
    wrath                 Count= 21.2|16.3sec  DPE=3247| 6%  DPET=2563  DPR= 8.5  Miss=9.6%  Hit=2435  CritHit=4879|4929|42.8%
   treants
    melee                 Count= 38.0| 5.5sec  DPE= 670| 2%  DPET= 419  DPR= 1.$  Miss=8.8%  Hit= 816  CritHit=1638|1650|6.0%

Erdluf · 09/25/08, 10:31 AM

I got rid of all the mana talents (except Moonkin Form), even putting a point in Genesis instead of Moonglow. I also dropped Starfall (he doesn't have it modelled). I kept FF in the rotation (otherwise the Enhancement Shaman's DPS takes a bigger hit than the Moonkin gains).

druid=Druid_Balance
level=80
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?druid=00000000000000000000000000000205003002000000000000000005102203125331305213305301050
actions=flask,type=blinding_light/mark_of_the_wild/moonkin_form/mana_potion,trigger=3500/innervate/treants/moonfire/insect_swarm/faerie_fire/wrath,eclipse=trigger/starfire

this bumped the numbers a little bit more

DPS Ranking:
  39335 100.0%  Raid
   4108  10.4%  Shaman_Enhancement
   3916   9.9%  Warlock_Affliction
   3716   9.4%  Druid_Balance
   3664   9.3%  Warlock_Destruction
   3505   8.9%  Mage_FrostFire
   3480   8.8%  Mage_Fire
   3156   8.0%  Warlock_Demonology
   3124   7.9%  Mage_Frost
   3096   7.9%  Priest_Shadow
   3048   7.7%  Mage_Arcane
   2390   6.1%  Shaman_Elemental
   2185   5.5%  Priest_Holy

Player=Druid_Balance  DPS=3716.4  DPR=13.4  RPS=276.7/406.8  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=89  agility=72  stamina=872  intellect=882  spirit=424  health=12323  mana=17029
  Spell Stats:  power=2173  hit=4.5%  crit=20.1%  penetration=0  haste=17.8%  mp5=91
  Attack Stats:  power=158  hit=0.0%  crit=1.9%  expertise=0.0  penetration=0  haste=17.8%
  Actions:
    insect_swarm          Count= 25.8|12.9sec  DPE=4942|10%  DPET=3759  DPR=16.3  Miss=9.5%  Tick=850
    moonfire              Count=  2.7|122.7sec  DPE=53144|12%  DPET=40060  DPR=66.7  Miss=10.7%  Hit= 155  CritHit= 315| 331|38.0%  Tick=1320
    starfire              Count=115.3| 2.9sec  DPE=7564|70%  DPET=3442  DPR=12.5  Miss=9.4%  Hit=5354  CritHit=10709|10756|50.7%
    wrath                 Count= 21.7|15.4sec  DPE=3355| 6%  DPET=2644  DPR= 8.0  Miss=9.5%  Hit=2539  CritHit=5084|5133|41.6%
   treants
    melee                 Count= 38.0| 5.5sec  DPE= 671| 2%  DPET= 419  DPR= 1.$  Miss=9.0%  Hit= 822  CritHit=1647|1667|5.8%

erragal · 09/25/08, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

I got rid of all the mana talents (except Moonkin Form), even putting a point in Genesis instead of Moonglow. I also dropped Starfall (he doesn't have it modelled). I kept FF in the rotation (otherwise the Enhancement Shaman's DPS takes a bigger hit than the Moonkin gains).

It looks like we're now right around all the other casters, and I'm assuming that range is where they want everyone to be at. Was the level 80 Starfire idol utilized? Last I checked it was finally implemented at 129 spell damage for Starfire, which is an enormous chunk of damage for us (Far better than anyone will be getting from a wand.)

EDIT: Are treants being given all raid buffs in SimulationCraft? I know no one has really tested how they scale with attack power buffs yet, but their scaling with melee haste should be fairly basic.

• Adoriele · 09/25/08, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

I got rid of all the mana talents (except Moonkin Form), even putting a point in Genesis instead of Moonglow. I also dropped Starfall (he doesn't have it modelled). I kept FF in the rotation (otherwise the Enhancement Shaman's DPS takes a bigger hit than the Moonkin gains).

Erd, there's a Spriest in there, so you should be able to drop FF and let them keep up Misery.

[edit] Or is it the lack of -armor that's causing the DPS drop?

Roywyn · 09/25/08, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

SimulationCraft has been updated for patch 8982, including support for Druid, Mage, Priest, Shaman, Warlock.

Druid_Balance Resource Management

How should that diagramme be read?
It looks like Mana Spring returns 3 times as much mana as Judgement of Wisdom.
Which means that one of us seems to be doing something really really wrong.