Moonkin WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion - Page 38

erragal · 09/25/08, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

How should that diagramme be read?
It looks like Mana Spring returns 3 times as much mana as Judgement of Wisdom.
Which means that one of us seems to be doing something really really wrong.

I know from some guild members on beta that all mana springs from shaman are stacking currently. Depending on how many shaman are in a raid, that could make it that powerful for sure. I'm really surprised that stacking is still in however, they fixed that issue with totem of wrath awhile back I believe. It may need tested in the latest build to see if that's changed, however.

Erdluf · 09/25/08, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

Erd, there's a Spriest in there, so you should be able to drop FF and let them keep up Misery.

[edit] Or is it the lack of -armor that's causing the DPS drop?

I assume it is mostly the armor thing. Treant DPET dropped by a bit more than 5% I think. When I just dropped FF from the rotation, the overall Moonkin DPS went up by about 2%, which seems a little bit high (lose 3% crit, gain 2% to 2.5% more DPS casts). I haven't looked at his combat logs to see what is going on.

Feral WotLK thread makes it sound like bears will be keeping FFF up (currently the threat seems very high for a rage-free move). You may be able to convince a cat to cast it also.

Soultrigger · 09/25/08, 11:20 AM

About Imp FF, what I would like to know if it benefits from any faerie fire, such as feral faerie fire??

Because it could be a boost to our dmg somehow when we don´t need to keep it on the rotation for spell hit or armor...

• Adoriele · 09/25/08, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Soultrigger

About Imp FF, what I would like to know if it benefits from any faerie fire, such as feral faerie fire??

Because it could be a boost to our dmg somehow when we don´t need to keep it on the rotation for spell hit or armor...

My guess is that it's any faerie fire, but we're likely going to need to get a raid going on beta or PTR to really test it. Crit rate needs a much larger number of samples to work with than damage does in order to get a good idea of how it's affected.

dedmonwakeen · 09/25/08, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

How should that diagramme be read?
It looks like Mana Spring returns 3 times as much mana as Judgement of Wisdom.
Which means that one of us seems to be doing something really really wrong.

I have Mana Spring returning 30 mana every 2 seconds. I have two Shaman in the raid...... and I let everybody be in the same "party". I didn't know if Mana Spring stacked and/or if it was raid-wide.

JoW is returning 2% of MAX mana with 100% proc chance and 4sec cooldown.

Perhaps my "max mana" numbers are significantly less than yours?

• Adoriele · 09/25/08, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

I have Mana Spring returning 30 mana every 2 seconds. I have two Shaman in the raid...... and I let everybody be in the same "party". I didn't know if Mana Spring stacked and/or if it was raid-wide.

JoW is returning 2% of MAX mana with 100% proc chance and 4sec cooldown.

Perhaps my "max mana" numbers are significantly less than yours?

With 20k max mana, JoW should be returning 400 mana every 4 seconds (or so), more than 6 times as much.

nightie · 09/25/08, 2:55 PM

I have tried to look for this answer and have been unable to locate it, but what will the hit cap be in the xpac? Just trying to see what direction to go. Thanks in advance

• Adoriele · 09/25/08, 3:10 PM

Originally Posted by nightie

I have tried to look for this answer and have been unable to locate it, but what will the hit cap be in the xpac? Just trying to see what direction to go. Thanks in advance

Hasn't changed much. We've always started off with 83% hit, they just made it so we can go past 99% all the way to 100%. So with 17% deficit to start with, and assuming you're fully-talented and buffed (4% BoP, 3% iFF/Misery), and 26.23 hit rating per 1%, you're looking at 262 hit to cap.

dedmonwakeen · 09/25/08, 3:11 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

With 20k max mana, JoW should be returning 400 mana every 4 seconds (or so), more than 6 times as much.

Found the bug..... The Elemental Shaman was spamming multiple Mana Spring Totems..... which also explains why his DPS was less than expected..... although it is still low.

I'll have a new download out shortly. New mana regen pie:

• Adoriele · 09/25/08, 3:22 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Found the bug..... The Elemental Shaman was spamming multiple Mana Spring Totems..... which also explains why his DPS was less than expected..... although it is still low.

I'll have a new download out shortly. New mana regen pie:

That matches almost perfectly with what my sheet's saying. I think I'm getting a little less from Intensity than you show, but our gearing's not the same. Actually, looking at your numbers I wouldn't hesitate to say that yours is a little past T7-25 gearing, at least for us, which may have an effect on your placements, though you're getting similar numbers to what I get anyway. Might be the lack of hit, it's easily the best stat right now.

dedmonwakeen · 09/25/08, 3:34 PM

Originally Posted by erragal

dedemonwakeen: I know it may be very difficult to model with simulationcraft, but there's a sizable DPS advantage to be had by applying all trinkets/destruction potion/spell damage drums and utilizing the Idol of the Moon for the initial moonfire cast. The periodic damage will stay static as long as you do not let it drop. The only thing you potentially lose is about .1-.2 seconds between the idol switch GCD and a normal spell haste affected GCD.

In order to guarantee the Eclipse Starfire bonus Moonfire is occasionally dropping off when I switch to Wrath.

Provided JoW is available, it seems possible to sustain a 71pt Balance build:

druid=Druid_Balance
level=80
# Vanilla build, including Resto talents
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?druid=00000000000000000000000000000205003312000000000000000005032003025301305213305300051
# Provided JoW is available and Treants are viable in the encounter
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?druid=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000005532203125331335213305311051
actions=flask,type=blinding_light/mark_of_the_wild/moonkin_form/mana_potion,trigger=3500/innervate/faerie_fire/treants/moonfire/insect_swarm/wrath,eclipse=trigger/starfire
gear_stamina=708
gear_intellect=687
gear_spirit=250
gear_spell_power=2004
gear_spell_crit_rating=596
gear_spell_hit_rating=250
gear_haste_rating=585
# The starfire glyph is coded with starfire refreshing moonfire, not starfall.
glyph_moonfire=1
glyph_starfire=1
glyph_insect_swarm=1
# Three Treants modeled as one pet that hits 3x hard
pet=treants
quiet=1
active=owner
# Throw in a pair of Paladins.......  Eventually these static parms will be replaced with real actors.
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_wisdom=1
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1

Results:

Player=Druid_Balance  DPS=4014.3  DPR=15.8  RPS=254.9/278.8  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=89  agility=72  stamina=872  intellect=882  spirit=424  health=12323  mana=17029
  Spell Stats:  power=2173  hit=13.5%  crit=23.1%  penetration=0  haste=17.8%  mp5=91
  Attack Stats:  power=158  hit=0.0%  crit=1.9%  expertise=0.0  penetration=0  haste=17.8%
  Actions:
    insect_swarm          Count= 24.5|14.2sec  DPE=5422|10%  DPET=4123  DPR=17.9  Miss=0.5%  Tick=849
    moonfire              Count=  1.1|321.3sec  DPE=138593|11%  DPET=104028  DPR=191.1  Miss=0.8%  Hit= 145  CritHit= 289| 292|42.0%  Tick=1315
    starfire              Count=123.8| 2.8sec  DPE=8134|72%  DPET=3741  DPR=14.7  Miss=0.5%  Hit=5141  CritHit=10283|10327|58.7%
    wrath                 Count= 21.1|16.4sec  DPE=3579| 5%  DPET=2843  DPR= 9.4  Miss=0.5%  Hit=2438  CritHit=4880|4929|47.2%
   treants
    melee                 Count= 38.0| 5.6sec  DPE= 676| 2%  DPET= 422  DPR= inf  Miss=9.0%  Hit= 823  CritHit=1647|1650|5.9%

Some pretty pictures:

• Adoriele · 09/25/08, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Pretties

Hmm... So what's the Damage/Execution time of Moonfire

Erdluf · 09/25/08, 4:14 PM

Dedmon's latest numbers can probably be pushed up a little.

He needs to spec FoN (since he's casting treants). That point can come from Starfall, which isn't being used.

He really needs to spec Lunar Guidance and Nature's Splendor. He should get those points from Intensity/Omen if possible (mana is tighter than it was before). Otherwise he can get 3 points from Celestial Focus, and if necessary get 1 point from IIS.

Finally, if mana is really not an issue, he can shift points from Moonglow into Improved Moonfire (first), and the last Moonglow point could go into Genesis. The DPS boost from these is very small though, so if you were at all worried about mana, you'd keep the points in Moonglow.

MF DPET is in the Results text. 104K. Make that spammable, and the rest won't matter.

erragal · 09/25/08, 4:15 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

In order to guarantee the Eclipse Starfire bonus Moonfire is occasionally dropping off when I switch to Wrath.

Provided JoW is available, it seems possible to sustain a 71pt Balance build:

Every time I look at that rotation I get about 10 seconds at the end of eclipse cooldown to activate the Starfire buff without cutting into the initial 12/15 second duration of moonfire. My thought is starting the fight with IS/wrath then moving to moonfire once the Starfire buff goes off (And hopefully having a fully stacked trinket). You could even start with moonfire and still have 15 seconds to get the first wrath buff. With the crit rate in your simulation you have a 28% overall chance to proc that buff as well, it would take some awful RNG to lose moonfire at that point (And would likely be higher DPS just to switch back to Starfire until you have the duration to try for the proc again.)

EDIT: The more haste and crit (For NG procs and wrath crit chance) we get as our gear scales up the less likely it is for moonfire to come close to falling off as well.

Is the 71 point spec really higher DPS than 10% intellect and 4% total spell damage for those 14 points?

EDIT: If only we could pull off 104k DPET in PVP

• Adoriele · 09/25/08, 4:23 PM

Originally Posted by erragal

Is the 71 point spec really higher DPS than 10% intellect and 4% total spell damage for those 14 points?

One of the things I'll be dropping into the sheet with the next rev is the ability to see just what benefit each talent point you spend will give you. It'll be rather backwards to begin with, as you'll only see the benefit after you've spent the point, but it should give an idea of relative worth. Note that this will require you to select a particular rotation to gauge to, though you'll still be able to see full rotation stats for the other rotations.

And yes, 104k DPET is amazing.

erragal · 09/25/08, 4:29 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

One of the things I'll be dropping into the sheet with the next rev is the ability to see just what benefit each talent point you spend will give you. It'll be rather backwards to begin with, as you'll only see the benefit after you've spent the point, but it should give an idea of relative worth. Note that this will require you to select a particular rotation to gauge to, though you'll still be able to see full rotation stats for the other rotations.

And yes, 104k DPET is amazing.

That'll be pretty useful. Individual talent points I don't have a problem calculating a value on my own, the complexity comes when you weigh those 10 talent points you need to spend to get to master shapeshifter in addition to the 2 spent on it. Then there's the fact that if it is worth it to go for MS, intensity is opened up as an alternative to dreamstate.

Kaug · 09/25/08, 4:46 PM

Originally Posted by erragal

That'll be pretty useful. Individual talent points I don't have a problem calculating a value on my own, the complexity comes when you weigh those 10 talent points you need to spend to get to master shapeshifter in addition to the 2 spent on it. Then there's the fact that if it is worth it to go for MS, intensity is opened up as an alternative to dreamstate.

Intensity >> Dreamstate

I agree and you can probably get away with trading Dreamstate + Moonglow for Intensity + OCC 'saving' 2 more talent points on the relative cost of MSS.

Then you could also drop Lunar Guidance or .... so many options, head starting to hurt :P With the large number of desirable balance talents (aka bloat) plus those in the resto tree, Rawr and the like are going to need Talent optimizers to go with their Gear optimizers. Or at the very least a field that estimates the value of talents based on what gear\buffs you'll have.

erragal · 09/25/08, 5:01 PM

Originally Posted by Kaug

Intensity >> Dreamstate
The bigger question might be, if we go 16 into Resto for Furor + MSS + OoC + Intensity (or some lesser variation) is that worth more than Dreamstate + Moonglow + Lunar Guidance (2pts as 1 is needed to open T3) + ?? (other untaken balance talents). DPS\Mana wise what is the trade off? I'm sure this is going to seesaw a bit as gear improves\changes. With the large number of desirable balance talents (aka bloat) plus those in the resto tree, Rawr and the like are going to need Talent optimizers to go with their Gear optimizers.

I know intensity is better than dreamstate, unfortunately my point was probably not made clear enough. :/

At the moment if Master shapeshifter didn't exist intensity/OoC would be the last talents you selected for mana regen, simply due to the 10 point committment you have to spend to reach them. If the points spent just to get MaSh are actually better spent there due to the DPS increase, you also get the benefit of intensity over dreamstate without any opportunity cost. There's also the possibility that one or two points of intensity is enough to satisfy mana requirements where you would need 2/3 points in dreamstate.

I actually like the options we have available, I just hope some of the numbers are adjusted slightly so as to make the choices more preference than there always being a best option. Genesis and Improved Moonfire could probably use minor buffs to accomplish that.

• Adoriele · 09/25/08, 5:07 PM

Originally Posted by erragal

I know intensity is better than dreamstate, unfortunately my point was probably not made clear enough. :/

At the moment if Master shapeshifter didn't exist intensity/OoC would be the last talents you selected for mana regen, simply due to the 10 point committment you have to spend to reach them. If the points spent just to get MaSh are actually better spent there due to the DPS increase, you also get the benefit of intensity over dreamstate without any opportunity cost. There's also the possibility that one or two points of intensity is enough to satisfy mana requirements where you would need 2/3 points in dreamstate.

I actually like the options we have available, I just hope some of the numbers are adjusted slightly so as to make the choices more preference than there always being a best option. Genesis and Improved Moonfire could probably use minor buffs to accomplish that.

For what it's worth, preliminarily Master Shapeshifter is worth about 75 DPS to an MF, IS, SFxN rotation. Furor's actually going to be the hardest talent to model properly, as increasing Int messes with just about everything.

erragal · 09/25/08, 5:12 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

For what it's worth, preliminarily Master Shapeshifter is worth about 75 DPS to an MF, IS, SFxN rotation. Furor's actually going to be the hardest talent to model properly, as increasing Int messes with just about everything.

For scripting purposes, just be happy they didn't give us a crazy intellect -> spell haste conversion talent. Then you'd really be going crazy.

Interesting observation: None of dedemon's graphs have us utilizing our own innervate as a source of mana. Certainly it'd be great if our innervate was available to the healers, but the current talent situation gives us dps increases by speccing out of all the mana regen talents. I'm just wondering if you were including it in your calculations Adoriele?

• Adoriele · 09/25/08, 5:15 PM

Originally Posted by erragal

For scripting purposes, just be happy they didn't give us a crazy intellect -> spell haste conversion talent. Then you'd really be going crazy.

Interesting observation: None of dedemon's graphs have us utilizing our own innervate as a source of mana. Certainly it'd be great if our innervate was available to the healers, but the current talent situation gives us dps increases by speccing out of all the mana regen talents. I'm just wondering if you were including it in your calculations Adoriele?

You get the option for it in the next build

Really, though, you're likely never going to need it, as Replenishment, Moonkin Form, and JoW are going to give you about 10 minutes of straight DPS or so. Also, I was off in my previous calculation, it's actually closer to 150 DPS.

Erdluf · 09/25/08, 5:21 PM

Originally Posted by erragal

Interesting observation: None of dedemon's graphs have us utilizing our own innervate as a source of mana. Certainly it'd be great if our innervate was available to the healers, but the current talent situation gives us dps increases by speccing out of all the mana regen talents. I'm just wondering if you were including it in your calculations Adoriele?

Actually, he is casting Innervate. The mana is rolled into the "Spirit" section of regen on his graphs.

dedmonwakeen · 09/25/08, 5:28 PM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

Actually, he is casting Innervate. The mana is rolled into the "Spirit" section of regen on his graphs.

It seems like it would be useful to have the Innervate portion broken out...... that might get ugly. I'll see what I can do.

Kaug · 09/25/08, 5:47 PM

Originally Posted by erragal

I know intensity is better than dreamstate, unfortunately my point was probably not made clear enough. :/

At the moment if Master shapeshifter didn't exist intensity/OoC would be the last talents you selected for mana regen, simply due to the 10 point committment you have to spend to reach them. If the points spent just to get MaSh are actually better spent there due to the DPS increase, you also get the benefit of intensity over dreamstate without any opportunity cost. There's also the possibility that one or two points of intensity is enough to satisfy mana requirements where you would need 2/3 points in dreamstate.

I actually like the options we have available, I just hope some of the numbers are adjusted slightly so as to make the choices more preference than there always being a best option. Genesis and Improved Moonfire could probably use minor buffs to accomplish that.

I think we are saying the same thing from opposite perspectives. You're look to see if MSS is = 12 points in balance so things like Intensity vs DS are free upgrades. i'm looking to see I can 'reduce' the cost getting up to MSS. EX If Intensity is = DS + MG then i saved 3 points so now i only need to justify 9 pts for MSS etc etc

PS I like all the choices. Too many 'good' choices are a thing to want. I've hated that currently all pve moonkin builds are virtually identical except for iFF.

• Adoriele · 09/25/08, 5:57 PM

Originally Posted by Kaug

I've hated that currently all pve moonkin builds are virtually identical except for iFF.

This should not be the case. Any PvE Moonkin should have iFF, or their guild is doing it wrong.

/rant