I'm not implying that it's bugged, my statement is that the wording of the talent is not clear enough to make a determination as to whether it gives you the crit when your (improved) faerie fire is on the target, when a feral's faerie fire is on the target, or perhaps another balance druids (improved) faerie fire is on the target. Assuming it works in one way without any clarity isn't a good basis to theorycraft from. Testing procs/percentages is always a good idea, because in the past blizzard hasn't been very clear on those numbers, fortunately those things are a lot easier to test than this talent.


That's an excellent idea Erdluf and you wouldn't even need 10 people to do it. You could have three people each with a different state (IFF, FFF, No Faerie Fire) and chain infinite mana hurricane for a long time. I'm available on the PTR from 5:30EST to 7EST tonight if anyone wants to do this test.

What exactly is unclear? If it had to be your FF or iFF they would have said so, especially since lesser FF don't stack with Improved ones. Where as every druid can have a MF up on the same target at the same time. On the other hand it could be broken. Here is wishing for dynamic tooltips that would show all your stats on the character sheet in real time, to keep over head low just run if the character screen is up.

From wowhead wotlk Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I'm assuming it's a bug. 50% slow is pretty absurd.

It used to be 50% slow (And is on live), but was adjusted right around the debuff mass changes to fall in line with other slow effects. I would definitely report just the one rank doing it now as a bug, I don't believe they want us being chain hurricaning every boss.


EDIT: And on the tooltip: I suppose in my experience the tooltips are not always that cut and dry, and actual testing is always more conclusive. Tooltips have been worded like that and only been 'your' effect in the past. Why shouldn't we want to test our mechanics to make sure they're working correctly or if they're working at all? And certainly if I test this and it's any FF I'll be thrilled and we'll have conclusive proof, as that's the type of info we should be theorycrafting with: tested information.

But as you mentioned, barring you sitting down and chaincasting for days on end, you wouldn't get a large enough sample to make a definitive answer about whether or not the talent is bugged or working as intended. Hell, even for 10,000 casts, a 1% variation is far from unlikely... so if you had a 1% positive variation without FF and a 1% negative with FFF, your test would be inconclusive.

This gets back to my point... the talent clearly states "increases the critical strike chance on your damage spells by 3% against targets afflicted by Faerie Fire" which isn't ambiguous to me in any way... so I'd be taking IFF for a moonkin build rather than assuming the talent is bugged.

EDIT: 50% slow on hurricane is haawwwtttttt!

Moonkins have a lot of talents available for mana conservation, or mana pool. Has anyone actually compared which ones would be best to get for raiding? My guess is the mana regen types first...?

Heres the list of talents I'm torn between:

Moonglow
Dreamstate
Furor
Intensity
Omen of Clarity

And as an addition to what Erdluf said: You're not going to take intensity or OoC and not have Furor. There's nowhere better to put the points for a PVE build.

At what point of spirit does intensity over take dreamstate?

At what point of intellect does dreamstate over take intensity?

I'm sure the maths is doable, but just not by me...

Its not that simple, more intel enhances spirit regen, which buffs intensity. So it is a sliding scale.
The short answer, for PVE, is that DS is never better than Intensity. BUT you have to put 10 points into resto to open Intensity. MSS mitigates that cost since +4% damage for 2 (more) points awesome, as do the lower tier talents. While not great, the first two tiers are tons better than our current choices in tier 1-2 of resto.

I'll leave the answer for PVP to someone else.

It's not an easy question, as Intensity's value varies by both Spirit and Int, while DS is just Int. However, we can make a couple of assumptions and go from there. For example, I have ~400 Spi right now fully buffed. A T7-25 moonkin will likely have ~600. This makes Intensity worth
MP5 for me, or approximately MP5. Setting this equal to gives us a value of 3131 Int necessary for Dreamstate to equal Intensity. Doing the same for a 600-spi level 80 Moonkin (which means changing the .009327 to .005575, as it's level-based) gives a value of 2517 Int. Needless to say, both of these values are unobtainable.

There appears to be a bug with Nature's Grace/Wrath that prevents Wrath's GCD from receiving the benefit if you use Quartz to time your casts.

I noticed this while trying out the Boomkin spec. At first I thought that the issue was just the more difficult timing associated with faster casts. However, I found that I encountered "Spell is not ready yet" even if I waited for an NG'd Wrath's cast bar to complete fully before trying to cast my next Wrath.

Confused, I ran some tests. I closely watched my GCD while being extremely careful about my timing. I found that nearly 90% of the time that I was on the ball with my precasting Wrath would not benefit from a shorter GCD during a NG proc. When I didn't precast, the problem was non-existent.

Has anyone else encountered this? I couldn't find a post in the thread mentioning it.

It's not a bug, it's that the GCD cannot be < 1.0 seconds. With NW the base cast time is 1.5 on wrath, with a NG proc it's 1.0, so any haste would technically try to lower it below 1.0 but be unable to.

I have to admit I have not read every post in here, as that would take a lot of time. But has anyone talked about where TF is going to fit into the cat dps rotation? I know that rake is an awesome combo point generator, so I was thinking something along the lines of:

Mangle
Rake
Shred to 5CP
Savage Roar
Mangle
Rake
Shred to 5CP
Rip
Mangle
Rake
Shred to 5CP

Here is where it gets iffy. How much time is left on SR is huge here. Could I FB? And if I do, I think that would be the time to use TF because of 3/3 KotJ. So I gain 60 energy, which helps generate 5 CBs quicker, and then SR and rinse and repeat?

I'm thinking that TF is most useful after a FB is that's what you're using instead of rip. I'm also thinking RIP > TF for energy efficiency unless you use TF right after it with 3/3 KotJ.

Thoughts?

You're in the moonkin thread, you want the feral thread

Oh, man, I just "got it".

Machine gun Wraths are great in PvP- not so much in PvE.

What if there was a glyph that added .5 of a second to Wrath's cast time and increased its damage by a percentage- (20-25%)?

I'm well aware that the GCD can't be lowered below 1.0 seconds. What I'm saying is that when queuing Wrath there's a bug which is preventing NG from affecting the GCD at all. Effectively, despite the fact that the cast time of Wrath is affected by NG, the GCD of Wrath remains 1.5 seconds (without haste).

This only occurs when one is queuing Wrath, and only consistently when you're relatively spot on with your queuing. I'm trying to upload a video of the bug to youtube, but it's taking forever. In the meantime, I'd recommend going onto the PTR/Beta, removing any gear with haste and testing for yourself. If you watch your GCD like a hawk I think you'll be able to see what I'm talking about.

I don't believe I'm communicating this well so I'll give it another go. Here's what I am seeing.

When I cast Wrath every 2 seconds (.5 second gaps between casts) the GCD during Nature's Grace is 1 second. Often when I cast Wrath every 1.5 seconds the GCD during Nature's Grace is 1.5 seconds.

There are a few visible indicators I am going by. Primarily I'm observing the rate of refresh for my icons versus the cast time indicated by my cast bar. There have been numerous occasions where a 1.0 second Wrath cast under Nature's Grace has a 1.5 second GCD. The secondary way I've been observing this is via the gold border placed around the icon of the spell I'm casting. This border drops when the spell is cast, and I've noticed it drop before the GCD.

I attempted to upload a youtube video to demonstrate this, but the upload crashed and I do not have time to attempt it again tonight.

My bad, so had a headache when I posted this .

The only thing i can say is that i have been doing som wrath spam (ie spamming my keys like mad) at times on the PTR to test stuff on the dummies, and that i haven't noticed any large GCD problem while doing so. A 0.5s difference should be perceptible quite easily :/

Both of your tests are only telling you that, under NG, your cast time is lower than the GCD. This is true. It is possible for you to have a <1s cast time. It is not possible to have a <1s GCD. There's a macro a few pages back which adds a hook to your frames and will report the GCD to chat. Find it and run your tests again, you'll see that unless they broke something in a recent push, it's working as intended.

I think what he's trying to say is happening is this:

With no NG:
Wrath Cast Time: 1.5 sec
Global Cooldown: 1.5 sec

With NG:
Wrath Cast Time: 1.0 sec
Global Cooldown: 1.5 sec <--should be reduced to 1.0 sec as well but isn't for him for some reason

If thats what he's saying is happening, then it is indeed a bug that happens under certain circumstances. Which specific circumstances would have to be tested further.

I have read the very insightfull discussion here, and must say I'm impressed. I was wondering if anybody has a spec for the next patch. A raiding singe target spec un till Wrath comes out. I always have a SP sometimes have a shami and don't need a lot of AOE. Also does anybody have a leveling utility mission 5 man speck. Thanks in adavance sorry if i derailed you all and for my spelling.