I'd think that for tough fights against elites, you'd really want FoN and Starfall. It may mean you have to wait longer between pulls, but you are more likely to "win" the pull.
You'd have to take the ponts from Intensity to get there, but you could get some of that mana back by moving more resto points into Dreamstate and Moonglow.
Update on Eclipse. Here is how we changed the talent.
It now has a longer cooldown (40 sec) and a shorter duration (10 sec) but the effects on Wrath and Starfire are doubled. It is overall a buff to the damage to justify the proc-watching aspect. We also hope the longer cooldown and shorter duration will mean it takes less of your bandwidth to do so.
Haven't run the numbers but doesn't seem too impressive at first blush. Maybe I'm wrong.
Haven't run the numbers but doesn't seem too impressive at first blush. Maybe I'm wrong.
Eclipse never was a good talent and they made it worse. Double the effects for half the uptime is a net neutral... but now they've reduced the proc time to 10 seconds meaning you'll only get three or four casts that take advantage of the effect. To me, they blatantly nerfed the talent and came out saying "hey look at how we buffed Eclipse!". It just seems strange.
I'm not sure how much of a buff this is. Mostly considering that we'll often 'lose' one spellcast (or spell canceled) to switch spells to the buffed one. Personally i'd prefer a clickable/macroable spellcast so we can use it when we want and not get stuck having it proc the wrong type or the wrong time. Seems like they are obsessed with it being a proc and not a cast. I'm guessing most of us will be skipping it still
This is definitively a nerf for PVE. Makes it more viable in pvp though. If they wanted it to use less 'bandwidth' they should have raised the duration significantly (Back to 30 seconds with the current 15% crit to starfire would be ideal).
They were saying it uses less bandwidth because now we're less likely to worry about our dots falling off during our eclipse time. I do agree that 10 seconds is a small windows, and we're assuredly waste 1s realizing we've procced.
But if watch the cooldown well, we can time wrath chaining right when it comes up for about 4 seconds, which will proc the +20% starfire crit..... oh god, the starfire crits will be glorious.
I think this change won't be so bad. And considering we'll be getting 4 more talent points, I think I'll drop 3 into this.
Has anyone determined the gemming style for 3.0 at level 70? I would assume the value of haste shouldn't be as good as it is right now.
Well, the break even for haste was 1077 Spellpower, even on. 1392 if you're trading 12 for 10, with epic gems. Adding haste pushes those numbers out by 1:1, so if you have, say, 50 haste, Spellpower is better until you have 1127, Spinels are better until 1442. Since everything amounts to adding more baseline haste, just treat it as if you have more haste rating than you actually do, I.E. if you get Celestial Focus for 3% haste, pretend you have ~45 more haste rating than you have equipped.
Well, the break even for haste was 1077 Spellpower, even on. 1392 if you're trading 12 for 10, with epic gems. Adding haste pushes those numbers out by 1:1, so if you have, say, 50 haste, Spellpower is better until you have 1127, Spinels are better until 1442. Since everything amounts to adding more baseline haste, just treat it as if you have more haste rating than you actually do, I.E. if you get Celestial Focus for 3% haste, pretend you have ~45 more haste rating than you have equipped.
And is this taking into consideration the increase in base damage of SF/IS/Wrath and the new trade offs of spell damage scaling talents? (No more 5% misery, gain of 8% through Earth and Moon assuming no malediction warlock, etc)
And is this taking into consideration the increase in base damage of SF/IS/Wrath and the new trade offs of spell damage scaling talents? (No more 5% misery, gain of 8% through Earth and Moon assuming no malediction warlock, etc)
The increased base damage shifts the balance a bit more towards haste (as haste makes you get more out of this increase, while spelldamage doesn't affect it), the %-buffs/nerfs have no effect on the haste/spelldamage balance.
For leveling i'm thing of starting with this Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft Note i tend to level solo for the most part. So i want to be self reliant and have as little downtime as possible, with as many pass dps buffs as possible, (IOW talents that need X up on target are bad as i'll rarely be casting FF for example while soloing)
What do y'all think
Edit oops left 2 in Nature's Reach, don't need reduced aggro while leveling so that could go somewhere else too
From my solo experience on beta. I don't have mana issues overland, if I have a mana issue it is in a 5 man with a pull gone bad or with some chain pulling monkey. The only spec where I suffered from mana issues overland was AOE spec. Since you didn't take the talents to enhance AOE I can't see how your going to have any mana issue. Also, if you solo why wouldn't you have Force of Nature? Especially when you can use the distraction when toying with elites let alone situations gone bad. I am not a fan of Nature's Focus, especially considering that from your specifications it helps on exactly ONE spell for the majority of your solo play; as in how often do you expect to encounter elites while solo?
Doubling a %dmg modifier is a true double, but doubling a %crit modifier is not.
Since the proc rate is not 100% you will always "waste" 1 spell before realizing you have to switch. 1 spell in a 10sec range is a larger percentage of wasted time than 1 spell in a 15sec range.
Doubling a %dmg modifier is a true double, but doubling a %crit modifier is not.
Since the proc rate is not 100% you will always "waste" 1 spell before realizing you have to switch. 1 spell in a 10sec range is a larger percentage of wasted time than 1 spell in a 15sec range.
This is a nerf.
I'll wait for the updated simcraft to tell me for sure.
Napkin-math follows.
Wrath->SF
Proc cost (using Wrath instead of SF) is the same.
Benefit goes from about 12.5s of 15% crit to about 7.5s of 30% crit. (1s spent on extra Wrath. 1.5s at end "wasted" because SF doesn't complete in time). That is an increase from 187.5 crit-seconds to 225 crit-seconds. A 20% increase.
Time between procs goes from about 35s to about 45s, almost a 30% increase.
Overall, if 3/3 Eclipse was a 3% boost before (this is rough ballpark), it would be a 2.8% boost now. Nerfed.
SF->Wrath
Adoriele's spreadsheet shows Wrath spam doing 103.3% of the damage of SF spam. However we use SF instead of Wrath because of the SF glyph. For chain casting, the SF glyph is too good. It gives us more MF duration than we could use, so you probably would use Wrath occasionally anyway. However the old Eclipse duration was too long. Going 20s without casting SF means your MF DoT is likely to fall off.
With 3/3 Eclipse, chain-casting SF, you will get the proc about every 35s. You will waste 2.5s on an extra SF cast. You will get in 5 Wraths at 126% of SF DPS, over 6.8s.
During eclipse your Wraths are doing 20% more damage than they would have (which was already slightly more than SF). 20%*6.8/35 = 3.8% overall increase to your filler. Your filler is about 75% of your total damage, so you are looking at a 2.9% boost to overall damage.
That looks about even to the previous benefit for 3/3 Eclipse going Wrath->SF. However, you don't need an external cooldown timer to know when "wrath,eclipse=trigger" is true. Instead, you will get procs off of your "main" rotation.
With procs off your main rotation, and a long cooldown, Eclipse talent points have diminishing returns. I'd expect a simulator to show 1/3 Eclipse and the SF->Wrath rotation gives something like a 1.3% boost. You've now freed two talent points to spend on mana regen, AoE, or other "utility" stuff.
With procs off your main rotation, and a long cooldown, Eclipse talent points have diminishing returns. I'd expect a simulator to show 1/3 Eclipse and the SF->Wrath rotation gives something like a 1.3% boost. You've now freed two talent points to spend on mana regen, AoE, or other "utility" stuff.
That's certainly the main advantage of using it for the wrath damage buff: you don't need a guarenteed proc for it to be effective. As long as it eventually procs you're getting some DPS benefit out of it (At the very least it's worth more DPS than 1 point in Genesis would be).
EDIT: At this point I suppose it's just PVP balance that's keeping them from making the Starfire buff to be 100% crit on your next Starfire cast. We're already at the point that getting more than 3 Starfires during the buff is going to require bloodlust or ridiculous levels of haste.
The one interesting thought is that if we can get to a level of 70% buffed critical chance for starfire it becomes at least three guarenteed critical Starfires. I don't think a 70% buffed critical chance is entirely out of the question once we get to the highest levels of gear if we were to gem heavily for it. That obviously wouldn't be the best for our overall DPS, but it could make for interesting controlled PVE burst in add type fights where you want to get something down ridiculously fast.
I'm also working on a new chart in Rawr.Moonkin that will show the DPS and/or mana efficiency gains from particular talents. If I can get that and get Eclipse properly implemented, that might shed a little light on the subject. Naturally, it's going to be theorycrafted instead of simulated, but it should give you a rough idea of the relative worth of various talents.
Im considering switching from my Warlock to my Moonkin as main in WoTKL. From what I have read single target dps and the utility from a Moonkin seems really nice. Also its amazingly fun to play
I read everywhere that the new Hurricane changes (no CD and it can crit) paired with Starfall and "maybe" Typhoon? Will make Moonkin AoE very nice, but how nice is it?
Basically has there been any calculations done to compare the different AoE abilities of all classes based on WoTLK changes and how they all stack up towards each other?
Im considering switching from my Warlock to my Moonkin as main in WoTKL. From what I have read single target dps and the utility from a Moonkin seems really nice. Also its amazingly fun to play
I read everywhere that the new Hurricane changes (no CD and it can crit) paired with Starfall and "maybe" Typhoon? Will make Moonkin AoE very nice, but how nice is it?
Basically has there been any calculations done to compare the different AoE abilities of all classes based on WoTLK changes and how they all stack up towards each other?
Right now Balance druid aoe is very competitive and unlimited by mana. The mana situation may change at some point if/when they adjust the chance for hurricane to proc mana return on crits. Starfall is nice supplemental AOE but is not going to be available on every pull. Typhoon is only a very slight DPS increase over hurricane that isn't worth the annoyance of moving a few mobs out of the aoe spot.
I haven't seen any class to class comparisons of raw AoE DPS, however. Definitely nothing that looks closely at Mind Sear and Volley (Which also got buffed significantly).
I haven't seen any class to class comparisons of raw AoE DPS, however. Definitely nothing that looks closely at Mind Sear and Volley (Which also got buffed significantly).
Compared to some Mage AoE, it looks pretty respectable to me.
Before talents and haste, on a per-second basis (not counting ground targeting delay) @80:
Hurricane: 451+12.8% damage. 8.1% base mana (before regen from crits)
Typhoon: 793+?%. 21.3% base mana.
Arcane Explosion: 373+14% damage. 16.7% base mana
Blizzard: 426+8.5% damage. 9.3% base mana
I'm using BC coefficients (Wowwiki). They may have changed for LK.
Hurricane becomes expensive if targets don't last the full duration (you pay for 10s, no matter how long they last, and you can't get mana back from dead targets). One of the uses for Typhoon will be AoE targets that wouldn't live for more than 2-3s under Hurricane.
Starfall costs about 40% as much as Hurricane. Does damage similar to Hurricane's against two targets (plus some minor splash damage to additional targets), and is instant cast rather channeled.
I didn't include talents because I don't know the Mage stuff that well.
I'll wait for the updated simcraft to tell me for sure.
Napkin-math follows.
Wrath->SF
Proc cost (using Wrath instead of SF) is the same.
Benefit goes from about 12.5s of 15% crit to about 7.5s of 30% crit. (1s spent on extra Wrath. 1.5s at end "wasted" because SF doesn't complete in time). That is an increase from 187.5 crit-seconds to 225 crit-seconds. A 20% increase.
Time between procs goes from about 35s to about 45s, almost a 30% increase.
Overall, if 3/3 Eclipse was a 3% boost before (this is rough ballpark), it would be a 2.8% boost now. Nerfed.
SF->Wrath
Adoriele's spreadsheet shows Wrath spam doing 103.3% of the damage of SF spam. However we use SF instead of Wrath because of the SF glyph. For chain casting, the SF glyph is too good. It gives us more MF duration than we could use, so you probably would use Wrath occasionally anyway. However the old Eclipse duration was too long. Going 20s without casting SF means your MF DoT is likely to fall off.
With 3/3 Eclipse, chain-casting SF, you will get the proc about every 35s. You will waste 2.5s on an extra SF cast. You will get in 5 Wraths at 126% of SF DPS, over 6.8s.
During eclipse your Wraths are doing 20% more damage than they would have (which was already slightly more than SF). 20%*6.8/35 = 3.8% overall increase to your filler. Your filler is about 75% of your total damage, so you are looking at a 2.9% boost to overall damage.
That looks about even to the previous benefit for 3/3 Eclipse going Wrath->SF. However, you don't need an external cooldown timer to know when "wrath,eclipse=trigger" is true. Instead, you will get procs off of your "main" rotation.
With procs off your main rotation, and a long cooldown, Eclipse talent points have diminishing returns. I'd expect a simulator to show 1/3 Eclipse and the SF->Wrath rotation gives something like a 1.3% boost. You've now freed two talent points to spend on mana regen, AoE, or other "utility" stuff.
Honestly, in moonkin builds I've been designing I haven't taken eclipse, not even 1/3 eclipse, for a long time. As a caster, I know there's a lot of timing and ability balance you need. Adding in some proc watch just muddles the mix and increases the chance for human error. So while the napkin math might show it as a 1.3% boost, if you don't notice it for two casts or blow through extra mana spamming haste or have it proc while you have trinkets popped, it'll end up benefitting far less than a mainstay talent like IFF or Lunar Guidance, or even a passive-proc such as Owlkin Frenzy which will benefit you regardless of when it procs.
I'll wait for the updated simcraft to tell me for sure.
Napkin-math follows.
With 3/3 Eclipse, chain-casting SF, you will get the proc about every 35s. You will waste 2.5s on an extra SF cast. You will get in 5 Wraths at 126% of SF DPS, over 6.8s.
During eclipse your Wraths are doing 20% more damage than they would have (which was already slightly more than SF). 20%*6.8/35 = 3.8% overall increase to your filler. Your filler is about 75% of your total damage, so you are looking at a 2.9% boost to overall damage.
With procs off your main rotation, and a long cooldown, Eclipse talent points have diminishing returns. I'd expect a simulator to show 1/3 Eclipse and the SF->Wrath rotation gives something like a 1.3% boost. You've now freed two talent points to spend on mana regen, AoE, or other "utility" stuff.
When the sim is run will it allow for the moonfire dot to fall off? I am assuming that during the Eclipse effect any loss of the dot time of MF is acceptable?
The other problem I have with the talent expenditure, while rare, is that if I encounter a nature or arcane immune mob it becomes pointless. I am not a fan of talent points that can be neutralized. I have yet to encounter immune to Nature/Arcane mobs in WOTLK but I suspect they are there.
Moonfire shouldn't fall off while eclipse is up unless there's also movement or silence effects in the fight
Aye. In any spam scenario, you're going to have > 10s on moonfire at any given point, because you start with 12/15, and it goes up every SF cast. You should be safe to spam Wrath on Eclipse proc, though with ~30s between end of one proc and beginning of another, you'll need to have an average of 2.25s cast on SF to regain the lost 10s. That might actually be the breakpoint of where Eclipse becomes useful.
@Erdluf, How about add insect swarm into SF->Wrath circle? When Eclipse procs, cancel current SF, insect swarm, then wrath?
I think it should be higher output than without IS.
@Erdluf, How about add insect swarm into SF->Wrath circle? When Eclipse procs, cancel current SF, insect swarm, then wrath?
I think it should be higher output than without IS.
Never cancel a spell in midcast unless it's a matter of moving for boss mechanics/survival. You will lose DPS, the eclipse proc is not going to give you back that 1-2 seconds of DPS you wasted with the incomplete cast.
@Erdluf, How about add insect swarm into SF->Wrath circle? When Eclipse procs, cancel current SF, insect swarm, then wrath?
I think it should be higher output than without IS.
IS, SFxN, MF rider is going to be the highest DPS rotation without Eclipse anyway (as long as it's glyphed, and if it's not glyphed, you're casting it for the Hit debuff anyway). We're not lacking glyph slots at 80, everything but IS, MF, and SF is a utility glyph at best, so you're always going to glyph IS if you can do without the hit debuff. With that in mind you're always going to have at least a partial IS up when Eclipse procs anyway.
10/08/08, 12:24 AM
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