Kuruk

Adoriele - Why does iFF only benefit the raid if no SPriest is present? 3% hit increase frees up a lot of itemisation budget for all casters. Did I miss a SPriest ability that does the same and doesn't stack with the talent? And yes, I was assuming that the 3% crit increase would apply to every single cast while iFF was up.

Why does only one point in Eclipse make sense when three points have a guaranteed effect on each crit?

And your calculation of Force of Nature's DPS contribution is only valid if the Treants live their full duration which won't be the case in many (if not most) boss fights.

 

Ulthwithian

Kuruk: I believe Misery did change to mimic iFF.

 

Dekkar

Misery is now 3% to spellhit, and it also offers a 'selfish' bonus, so you'd be very hard pressed to find a shadow priest without this talent.

IFF is good when you have no shadowpriest in the raid. If you have one, you're wasting a GCD to apply something that a shadow priest can apply automatically for free.

 

thedopefishlives

Shadow priest's Misery is 3% spell hit. There is only one class in the game that does not share a buff with another class, and that is Mages with Winter's Chill/Improved Scorch (10% spell crit debuff on target). Also, as Adoriele's math has shown, the first point of Eclipse gives a large DPS boost, but further points are much reduced in relative effectiveness. Basically, the improved proc rate of the effect with more talent points is offset by its short duration and long cooldown. Finally, Rawr.Moonkin has just added a slider controlling the lifespan of the Treants. They're still extremely powerful even at relatively low uptimes, especially for a single talent point.

One last thing: Arazan mentioned Omen of Clarity. It sucks. Don't bother with it. I'd go 15 into Resto for Intensity and Master Shapeshifter and then fill the rest in the Balance tree.

[Edit] Oh, yeah, Kings is unique, too. But those are the only two.

 

erragal

An additional note on treants: none of our numbers on their damage output includes the change to raid wide buffs. We can expect at least a 20% increase in their damage output over the fight just due to the change to Windfury Totem. Without knowing their AP scaling it's really difficult to gauge the theoretical benefits of the various AP buffs they will also receive. They'll also be critting significatly more due to the raid buffs/debuffs and they crit for double damage like all melee damage does.

Unless you're just really bad at placement/timing they're a DPS increase for a GCD on nearly every fight. You can bring the targeting circle up while you're in the middle of a Starfire cast but before it ends in order to minimize any DPS time lost. Those are going to be the types of quick reaction skills you'll need to learn in order to maximize your DPS in 3.0/WotLK, you're just nerfing yourself if you won't take Force of Nature and start learning the best ways to use them. They don't need to live their full duration to be worth the GCD either, as long as they do enough to match the approximately 1/2 a starfire cast they utilize you didn't lose any DPS.

 

Erdluf

Assume

- Eclipse goes to 10s duration, 40s cooldown, 30% crit to SF and 20% damage to Wrath.
- Your SF crit rate is fairly high (40% or more, raid buffed).
- SF DPS = Wrath DPS (before glyphs and eclipse, after IIS if you take it)
- Fight is mostly stationary, so you can spend 6s/minute casting Wrath, without losing the free MF DoT from the SF glyph.
- In your normal MF IS SF*x rotation, SF does 70% of the damage.

Put one point in Eclipse. You will get about one proc every minute. You will manage (on average) to cast 6s of Wrath during the proc. You are making 70% of your damage (SF) 20% more efficient (Eclipse for Wrath) for 6s out of every minute.

70% * 20% * 6s/60s = 1.4% DPS boost for 1 talent point.

If you take more talent points you make the 60s smaller (good). You also make it easier to lose the free MF DoT (bad). Suppose 3/3 Eclipse changes the 60s to 45s.

70% * 20% * 6s / 45s = 1.9% DPS boost for 3 talent points.

You spent two more talent points, but your DPS only went up by an additional 0.5%. That is a bad investment.


The math for precasting Wrath to get 30% SF is entirely different. For that strategy (if you take it), you will want 3/3 Eclipse. At the very least you will also need a good mod to tell you when to start your precast.


The biggest downsides to Eclipse are:

- Paying attention to a proc or a cooldown might interfere with paying attention to something else important.
- Time spent not casting SF increases the risk that your MF DoT will fall off (a very large loss in DPS).
- Other nice places to spend talent points.

Using the 1/3 Eclipse strategy mitigates all of those concerns to a certain extent. Choosing 1/3 instead of 3/3 means

- You only have to pay attention to a Proc, not to a cooldown.
- You spend more time casting SF.
- You free 2 talent points to spend on something else.

Edit: 20% damage to Wrath

 

Faerdael

To be honest, I am not seeing a huge problem with sinking some points into the resto tree. Blizzard seems to not want players to be speccing all points into a single class, ala the 0/0/61 resto builds of 2.x. This is why you see alot of lower level talents now in the balance tree to entice points to be spent by the tree druids, ala Genesis and Nature's Splendour.

I am fairly certain the same would apply to balance druids, hence there is now a rather nicely crafted restoration subspec for balance. Remember that 2.x meant often spending 17 points in balance for intensity and subtlety(4)
even though that meant 10 points of pure garbage. It isn't like balance is stuck in sub-spec hell, ala 33/28 arms warriors, where one must forego iMS (which is actually a quite nice talent) to pickup points in Flurry.

The 16 potential points in resto are far improved. Furor and Master Shapeshapeshifter directly equate to more DPS; intensity, OoC and Furor for mana improvements, and the only negligable talent being in Tier 2 shapeshifter, which will not goto 100% waste either. Also, it provides the player the ability to tune mana efficiency based on personal needs, allowing anywhere from 12-16 points to be spent in the tree, which I find to be brilliant.
Bear in mind also that having a balance druid with iMotW is not a waste at all, as it allows resto druid(s) to spend points elsewhere, which will be far more beneficial to them.

The trouble is picking out those 55-59 points in balance that are going to be most beneficial (the moonfury/Earth and Moon changes really improve this alot); this is ultimately what Blizzard wants to see - choice - and not just a "pickup all the damage talents" spec. Really that resto sub-spec is much improved now. If anything, we should complain about the 3 point Nature's Grace.

 

Balog

Can anyone with access to the beta provide some insight into the state of mana regen? At the moment are both Dreamstate and Intensity necessary, especially for solo or 5 man content where a mana battery may not always be available? I've seen a lot of speculation, but I'd love to see some more data.

 

• Adoriele

As always, run spec Intensity first, then Dreamstate if you need to. OoC is pretty much a waste of a talent point. Use the sheet if you need, just set it up for your usual group comp, find out how much your rotation is going to cost, how much each talent gives you, work from there.

[edit] I also mucked with the numbers in the sheet to model a 'swap' rotation (spam your main spell during cooldown, swap back and forth once you're eligible, so you're always casting the appropriate spell when Eclipse procs) For both Wrath and SF spam, it's a DPS hit, and I can't see it being anything else for actual rotations.

[edit2] Frak me, disregard that. It's an increase from a normal SF Eclipse rotation, decrease from normal Wrath Eclipse rotation. I'll do more work. Also, we have way too many rotation possibilities...

 

Boswell

This is just my speculation but I've done and cleared all the heroics and all the 10 man and 25 man instances on beta at level 80 with naxx/badge/tier 7 gear and only time when I run out of mana is when I have to hurricane on boss fights such as gluth/noth and on trash packs. Mana sustainability is a joke even to the point where I don't even innervate myself at all for single target DPS boss fights. The term "Mana battery" definitely won't be as powerful as it is in BC. Intensity in combination of all the spirit on gear at level 80 will play a huge part in your mana regen. I don't ever see dreamstate mandatory as it is in its form right now.

 

◊ Lord BEEF

What? Omen of clarity is great. It's far better than a single point in intensity or dreamstate from everything I've seen and what I've played

 

PsyBomb

I am currently touting 66/0/5 as my spec of choice, but with Blizz shaving 4 points off of the spec (awesome ) and the excellent post up this page about 1/3 Eclipse, I could use the 6 saved points to go 60/0/11. Would OoC or one point in Master Shapeshifter be better? I'm still trying to pry points loose, but the tree is still chock-full of must-have talents. Assuming I manage to loosen up 2 more, I'm going to put 13 in resto for OoC and master Shapeshifter, and ignore Spirit as a stat overall (though I'll still use Purified gems if I want a blue socket). If I manage to pry 5 total, I'll go for 56/0/15 and take both Intensity and Shapeshifter, dropping Dreamstate and OoC. Not easy, though...

EDIT: Sorry that I rambled so much, the train of thought was still running while I was typing. On a related note (kinda), is Starfall worth anything for raids? I never hear anything about it

To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.

 

Axanor

I think the best way to fix Eclipse (ignoring the issues with Wrath itself) would be for Eclipse to give you a Buff with a set number of charges and a time limit. (With each cast removing one of the charges) That way, you wouldn't be punished for slow reaction time, but would still have a sense of urgency around the proc.

 

• Adoriele

I think the best way to fix Eclipse is for the person speccing it to pay attention. There's a sense of entitlement I see, people expecting all DPS increases to be mindlessly easy. If you want to spec so that you don't have to think, Brambles, iFF, and iIS are that way. I'm perfectly content with the fact that Eclipse requires a little bit more bandwidth.

Beef, I wrote that from the standpoint of raiding which, granted, isn't what he asked for. In spam rotations, though, OoC is a little worse than a single point of Intensity at 70, and much worse at 80. For leveling, though, there's a greater chance that you'll be able to use it on a more costly spell, so it's a bit better.

 

thedopefishlives

To be honest, I view Eclipse as a talent that separates the good moonkin from the best moonkin. Sure, any moonkin who pays more than half attention to theorycrafting can get the proper gear, stats, and talents, and do halfway decent DPS (or better). But only the absolute best min/maxing moonkin will have that one little point in Eclipse AND be able to milk that proc for the extra 1-2% DPS that makes them the best.

 

Kathbrian

I think the problem with Eclipse is that a 1-2% DPS increase isn't enough between a good Moonkin and a spectacular Moonkin. It will barely be noticeable and could be easily overcome with RNG.

 

erragal

That won't be the only thing that separates them, it's just an additional tool that is only useful for someone that is skilled enough to pay attention. There are still gearing decisions that need to be made, time between casts due to chain casting, effective usage of force of nature etc. Or say there's a fight where we become mana limited due to a mechanic: A skilled player will be able to calculate the exact amount of mana they need to make it through the fight and gear/consumable/spec for that while a poor player will not have those skills/knowledge.

 

• Adoriele

Aye, that's a problem. I got the IS, SFxN, MF rider rotation modeled and, as expected, it's not as much a benefit as it is for SF spam. What I didn't expect is by how much. 3 points is only a 50 DPS upgrade, 1 point is 38. That's assuming you refresh IS during Eclipse and don't do the swapping style, so there's more implementation to do, but it's somewhat discouraging.

 

Askia32

Here is the spec I'm thinking of using for 3.0, and to level with in wotlk.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...33213025011231


I only specced 3 in E&M and moonfury because it's going to be reduced to such.

I went with this spec because I wanted to have the aoe, but not loose much on my single target dps. Having dreamstate is extremely important to me for leveling, to eliminate some of the drinking time.

Seeing as I'm on a pvp server, where horde outnumbers alliance 3-1, I thought it was important to have brambles and owlkin fury.

Getting force of nature was a must. It saved my life so many times when I have aggro'd too many mobs.

These are my thoughts, what do you guys think?

 

◊ Lord BEEF

That's probably what I'm going to spec to level with in 3.0. I'll probably skip a point or two dreamstate to max owlkin frenzy. Balance of power may not be necessary depending on the amount of hit you have on your gear. You don't need 17% hit to level, just like 5% or so.

 

Yilfin

Greetings here

I didn't read that information in this topic so i ask my question: with the regen mana with crits trough moonkin form, eclipse that activates with crits, grace of nature that benefit to wrath also, etc, is the crit rating stat have a better value ? Currently, i'm hesitating between crit and haste stat in my t6 second-spec gear, and i want to know if the new mechanics introduced in 3.0, even if we break the "spell power point where haste become good", make crit better for soloing (quests), pvp with pve gear, and long pve fights.

 

thedopefishlives

Haste is still the #1 stat for moonkin in 3.0. The interesting thing is that, thanks to Improved Moonkin Form and Intensity, spirit is actually close to (in many cases better than) the value of spell power. 1 point of crit is worth roughly 1 spell power, give or take a bit.

 

Yilfin

Thanks for your answer, yes i forgot to talk about spirit, that will become an offensive stat thanks to improved moonkin form. But for exemple, we can assume that for a blue socket, the new [Purified Shadowsong Amethyst] (+6 Spell Power and +5 Spirit) will be more powerful than [Forceful Seaspray Emerald] yes ?

And if you state that spirit will be close or even better than spell power, then, if i don't want to respect socket colors and use the more powerful moonkin gems (for t6 level gear) in addition to the two blue that i'll put for the meta, what gem will it be ?

[Reckless Pyrestone] or [Purified Shadowsong Amethyst](+6 Spell Power and +5 Spirit) ?

Thanks for your answers guys, rawr is not yet updated for these 3.0 values and i want to make the good choice of gems for my stuff

 

nory

One of the things I have not seen discussed is the lvl70 weapon enchant.

I should be upgrading my zergling staff soon, and I am thinking, is +40spell better for 3.0 and beyond.

NAturally, I use sunfire, since I usually use MF+SFx. But now if the new moonfire/starfire & insect swarm glyphs, I am thinking that its better to swap over to +40 spell damage instead of just +50 arcane damage.

Moonfire once, than IS, rotation is what i am refering to.

Has anyone seen any proof as to which one will be better for the most damage overall?

 

Vrakk

I suspect Major Healing might be your best bet. Its 43 spell power, so its certainly better than 40 spell damage.