Conquistador

I may have to disagree with you on this one. In terms of pure spell damage, spirit is worth 0.15 spelldamage (thanks to improved moonkin form). Intensity is even skipped in many builds because moonkin are very mana efficient. At least this is how it stands @ 80. If you are referring to 70 raiding, I cannot speak to that.

 

Kuruk

That is very interesting. Could you please tell us what mana regent talents exactly do you have in that beta build (or even better link the full build)?

I have read Adoriele's mana regen maths with interest. Her suggestion not to take any mana regen talents was extremely surprising considering that:
- spell costs go up considerably in the upcoming patch
- downranking will not be possible anymore
- you can only use one potion per fight

So I would really appreciate more beta-tested insight on this Boswell.

Are you putting a lot of emphasis on Spirit in your itemisation budget?

Coming back to Eclipse. Yes - it is a talent that rewards substantial skill. The problem for me here is that you are getting a minor damage increase for a huge deal of effort. And when you have to watch your Bloodboils or avoid AOE on the Council, paying attention to Eclipse procs at the same time won't always be possible. Just how much will we be getting out of this talent in reality, in complex boss encounters?

P.S. Thank you for all the clarifications to the issues I raised earlier.

 

◊ Lord BEEF

I'd start with most of the mana regen talents, and then work your way out of them slowly as your gear improves. I'm hesitant to skip intensity and omen, but you likely don't need to max dreamstate and moonglow all the time.

Naxxramas gear is a massive boost to your mana pool and lets you get away with quite a lot.

 

Boswell

That's what I'd raid with on Beta.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...03213035010231

Adoriele is right with not taking a lot of mana regen talents at level 80. However, at level 70 it's a different story depending on where you're getting your gear from. A lot of the (desirable cloth) Sunwell pieces do not have spirit on them at all, but with the proper synergies that you can get in a raid (JoW for instance) I wouldn't foresee it as a problem. The 300-400 mp5 we get from having shadow priests in our groups right now is mostly going to be compensated and allocated to the amount of spirit that we get for itemization at 80 also with changes in moonkin form. The point is that we're going to have to rely on spirit as part of our total mana regen and that amount of spirit isn't available to us at level 70 because of the redesign of regen mechanics at level 80. As for putting emphasis on spirit for itemization, no, there is no emphasis. The spirit will come naturally with the best in slot gear that you get. So nothings changed, just go with the best in slot DPS stats.

With Eclipse I'm still iffy about. The only use I truly see for it is probably on Patchwerk where you are allowed and guaranteed the DPS time with no pushback no interruptions. People theorycrafting and calculating its damage increase are not taking into consideration movement and interruptions. What happens if you proc it and you have to run out of a void zone? I dunno, I'm still not a fan of Eclipse and if it remains as it is I don't think I'd ever pick it up.

 

Kuruk

Thank you for the reply that is very helpful.

On Eclipse - that is exactly my view. Moving a lot means not being able to pay attention to procs all the time and sometimes simply losing them. Also if I move a lot during a boss fight, I stop using Starfires and start spamming IS>MF>WRx7 as too many Starfire casts can be lost when you suddenly have to move in the middle of casting it.

Lv70 - as you can see on my Armory profile, I don't have a great deal of Spirit at the moment so it looks like I will have to nerf my damage to pick some Mana Regen talents. Alternatively I could start with making a build with 1 Moonglow and add more regen if needed. There are so many difficult choices to be made on Wednesday...

Since you're raiding in beta, one more question.

What worries me about the Lv80 situation is the lack of Spell Hit on epic leather items other than the tier sets.

The only caster items with Spell Hit on them that I could find on WoW Head were cloth ones. So I am very worried that it will be difficult for us to get Spell Hit capped. Yes we can just pick cloth (although I am sure that many if not most guilds will not allow Moonkins priority on cloth items) but those cloth items with Spell Hit usually don't have any Spirit on them so that impacts your mana regen.

How did you get around that Boswell?

 

Boswell

At level 80, 26.3 Hit Rating is equivalent to 1%. 17% will be needed to cap. Balance of Power/Misery will provide you with 7%. If you're alliance, draenei racial is raid wide and will provide 1% hit.

If you're alliance, you're looking at: 26.3 x 9 = ~237 rating to cap at 80 against a level 83 mob.
If you're horde, you're looking at: 26.3 x 10 = ~263 to cap.

I don't think hit capping will be and should be a problem. If you have to pick up cloth loot, then do it. Armor value has no relevance. A large portion of my hit rating was from Battlemaster's Accuracy (PvP trinket w/+95 Hit Rating) until I could get enough hit on regular gear, and of course you should have plenty of things left over from 70 you can use. (Chronicle of Dark Secrets/Skull of Gul'dan, Loop of Forged Power, Amulet of Unfettered Magics, etc). If you have to gem hit to cap out, then do it. There's nothing wrong with that. I can't tell you for sure, but I'm almost certain that itemization for leather is fixed, or at least not as bad as it is in BC. Leather items like Noth's Curse, Fungi-Stained Coverings, Boots of Septic Wounds are very good, some even better then the cloth pieces available for that tier and also coming with a large amount of spirit at the same time.

You shouldn't worry so much about sharing gear with cloth dps as much as sharing some items with all the cloth/leather wearing healers imo =P.

 

moxy

I'm not a moonkin, but this was my first thought too when I saw the Eclipse mechanic. I'd take a second look at this idea. I think this might've been what GC was thinking when he told you guys to 'keep cranking.' The risk of losing the MF dot seems so marginal compared to RNG and other factors in the fight i wouldn't worry about it. In any fight with any movement at all, or short fights (or trash for that matter) it pays to get the most benefit out of eclipse early, and you're more likely to need to refresh MF anyways.

 

Miim

But wouldn't the amount of haste they put on gear ruin that playstyle. I do like the idea of this, but when SF gets so much from haste and wrath gets so little, even to the point where GCD > Wrath.

I see the rotation then becoming choppy. This is one the biggest problems I have with including wrath in any rotation. I wish they made Wrath a 2.5 sec base spell.

 

moxy

I didn't really get the impression from reading through this thread that wrath was as bad as all that. Isn't it still slightly better DPS than SF, if not considering DPM or glyph of SF? Anyways I figure you'd actually be casting roughly the same number of wraths per eclipse cycle as you would if you always spam SF to proc eclipse, depending on how many points you spend on eclipse and on your crit chance. Even though you weave in wraths once eclipse becomes procable, you would also have a decent chance of proccing eclipse with wrath. Am I not also correctly understanding that eclipsing your SF is slightly better than eclipsing your wrath, especially if mana is an issue? I'm just surprised no one's said they've modeled or tested this rotation, other than Adoriele's napkin math.

 

PsyBomb

Just as an aside, it is not possible (other than via Nature's Blessing) to cause Wrath to clip the GCD. One of the reason I like my Moonkin is because his options come out so cleanly, and in Wrath the Eclipse tricks will keep things interesting.

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lstsargent

After reading the discussion about eclipse and so forth, I was wondering what is going to be the preferred build for lvl 70 up until the xpac is released? Mostly doing raiding and dailies.

 

Olddrippy

According to wowhead Major Healing is going to 40 spell power after the patch, and looks like the original damage enchant is a bit easier for mats.

 

Balog

In terms of items, the Oracle Talisman of Absolution a rep reward trinket, seems very interesting. Anyone in beta have info on how much mana is returned, is there an internal cooldown etc? Depending on the proc limits I could see this being a spec altering item for AoE builds.

 

Alerian

If you click on the bonus in question, it indicates that it returns 200 mana. Probably not an internal cooldown, since it requires you to kill an enemy to have it fire.

 

Boswell

Is it even worth it? Insect Swarm is only about 12% of your total damage. Arcane will still be the huge chunk of your DPS. Is 40 Spell Power still better then Sunfire?

 

Boswell

So with all this talk about Eclipse and how it's still a minor DPS increase, my big question is: Do we lose anything if the proc isn't fully used? I mean, we can easily allocated our talent points into Eclipse now, and based of just single target dps, if we don't lose anything if we don't use the proc then great, whatever. And if we get to use it, then woohoo, DPS increase.

 

Balog

GC has indicated they want Eclipse to be "somewhat optional." Blue has also stated that they are intentionally making the trees "bloated" so players will have to make meaningful decisions. Even with the 4 extra talent points they are considering freeing up, there would seem to still be a lot of very good talents vying for those last few points.

 

Boswell

Right... but talents will always be based off maximizing single target DPS. What other options are left? AoE/Mana Regen/Treant talents. If we have nothing to lose with Eclipse then specing into it wouldn't be so bad, even if it is a minor increase.

 

Zephyra

Insect swarm may only be 12% of your damage, but now hurricane is spammable. 40 spell damage is better in many ways.

1. Thorns will scale with it. (Rather negligible, but I thought I would consider all pros no matter how small.)
2. Wrath (eclipse.)
3. Insect swarm.
4. Hurricane aoe.
5. Typhoon (If you grab it.)

 

ranma

From the description of improved Faerie Fire
...increases the critical strike chance of your damage spells by 3% on targets afflicted by Faerie Fire.

The text here hints that you don't need to cast FF yourself to gain the 3% spell crits. If that's true, you can spec for it and let feral druids cast FF for you. Bears will cast it every cool down, since it is a lot of free threat now. Cats have many time to wait the energy to regenerate.

For the raid wide+spell hit part, shadow priests can help that w/o sacrifice their dps.

I hope the text is correct.

 

thedopefishlives

Just a note, Rawr.Moonkin 2.0 was released today. Here's a list of what does and does not work:

WORKING:
* All new talents except Eclipse, which is partially implemented.
* New Nature's Grace which reduces GCD on Wrath.
* New buffs.
* New charts to let you compare the DPS or MP5 value of talents.
* A new chart that shows you the DPS value of one point of various stats (Intellect, Spirit, Spell Power, Spell Hit, Spell Crit, Spell Haste).

NOT WORKING:
* Mana savings calculations for Eclipse.
* Eclipse calculations are not 100% correct for non-spam rotations. They're not far off, though.
* Glyphs.
* Level 80 support.

POSSIBLE NEW FEATURES:
* A chart that shows you the best "bang for your buck" - comparing the DPS value of various stats for one itemization point.

I encourage you guys to try it out and to compare it against Adoriele's spreadsheet. It's not perfect by any means, but I hope it's useful.

 

terrapinbill

Is hit cap for us Still 215ish at L 70 with out balance of power?

 

Neshalin

There seems to be something wrong with Moonkin Form and Improved Moonkin Form in Rawr. If I have neither selected, the "all buffs" chart shows them at the same benefit as Elemental Oath and Swift Retribution respectively, as expected. But when you select either, it shows the other buff as a huge upgrade: I'm seeing a 500 dps boost over the non-druid equivalents.

 

thedopefishlives

This is as intended. If you have the talent points in those respective talents, then the selfish benefits of these two talents - 2% mana back on crit (Moonkin Form) and 15% spirit as spell power (Improved Moonkin Form) are activated when you select the buffs. That is to say, Rawr.Moonkin does not always assume you will be in Moonkin form unless you select that particular buff.

 

Starfox

now it really is 215 hit rating, before it was 202 as the last 1% miss could not be countered by hit
other values are
190 1/2 BoP 15+2%
177 0/2 BoP + SP/IFF 14+3%
164 2/2 BoP 13+4%
152 1/2 BoP + SP/IFF 12+2+3%
127 2/2 BoP + SP/IFF 10+4+3%

That's with 17% misses on boss mobs

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