Warlocks will stack spirit in the expansion, too.

I'm a bit more concerned about this post here:

WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Balance Druid Naxx 10 Set.. too much spirit

It sounds like... they don't know what spirit is good for? Sounds like he's just making stuff up. It seems a bit silly for a DPS class to start using the 5SR when they have Glyphs and talents that encourage constant casting.


Edit: Ghostcrawler pops up again:

WoW Forums -> Tons of spirit on the Naxx balance gear

Ghostcrawler did made a post adressing balance druid issues today. While some of the things he said were true and indeed pointed out solutions that were long asked for (CC, rework of lower tiers, more hybrid options), i would like to point out several somewhat disputable statements.

One of the main problems i do have with his views is how he looks at starfall. Right now, with the removal of the CD and a possibility to improve damage through a talent, Hurricane is a solid and reliable AE spell, even offering an additional debuff. It is offset by no reliable pushback protection besides Barkskin, but that's completly ok with me, the new pushback mechanic will let a certain number of ticks happen, so it's fine. There is a new and usable AE spell in our tree, Typhoon, a kind of 'Oh damn!' button in mass mob situations. It will fill a existing niche and surely will be used where approriate. But Starfall... how can someone judge a spell just because 'it's cool and new and exciting'? Such a description would point to a gimmick spell, somewhat that will be used for fun and to impress new players (as was the vanilla hurricane 31 point talent, it had an exciting graphic effect back then, but was almost never used besides to show off). Of course i may be interpreting to much in his statement, but it looks like a misconception about the role of balance druids today, which are no longer rarely seen and played, and looked upon as an oddity.

The other main problems that may be read into his post could be an misunderstanding with druidic needs. I may only be speaking for myself, but i don't mind spamming buttons in PvE, usually every class does it one way or another. Nor do i oppose introductions of new mechanics or abilities. As long as they serve a real purpose. While i could just reading it wrong, i do have the feeling that he is pointing out the 'Moonkins should be fun to play'-aspect to much. There has been a lot of discussion why Eclipse will most likely not be used be most Balance Druids, why there seems to be a certain kind of redundance and bloat, and where Blizzard has done a good job in reworking our trees. Is the reason 'Eclipse will be fun, because you will change your spells according to the procs' enough to justify the design of such a talent? Or am i just to suspicious regarding this post?

I agree with this sentiment entirely. Saying Eclipse is fun because it encourages you to rotate your spells is no value for a talent. We have plenty of spells we cast during our DPS cycle to switch things up because we're partially a dot class. If they wanted to switch things up more they could have given us high DPS lifebloom-esque dot, or a moderate cooldown burst damage ability/dot as a mana sink. Those are the types of abilities that would create variety and an interesting rotation.

Just making Eclipse an Icy Veins style activated buff would bring more options and gameplay choices for a balance druid. These types of abilities also accentuate the effect of player skill/knowledge on personal DPS, something Blizzard has said they're in favor of.

And every DPS in a raid mashes the same cycle of buttons, that comes with the territory.

Hmm i recall reading a BLUE post from Koraa saying they don't want us to have to mash to many buttons

What they should do it make our dots last longer, cheaper to cast or something SO that keeping DOTs up + SF\Wrath is always higher than SF\Wrath spam. Nature's Splendor and imp IS are a step in the right direction


On a completely different note, why is Innervate the only mana return effect (still) based on Spirit? Everything else is % of total mana. If they changed innervate to % of total mana per second it would fit all the other moonkin int focused talents better and make innervate useful for casting on that many more classes. No one innervates healadins or restoshams, seeing as neither has much spirit. If they changed this it would also be another good reason to take all that spirit off our gear and add more 'good' stats and\or give us a spirit -> cris\spellpower etc talent without making spirit 'too useful', perish the thought

Look at what he said.
Only buffs in the same bracket don't stack, everything else does. If this wasn't the case he would have just put IMKA and imp retri aura in both the melee and spell haste bracket as he did with other abilities that have more than one compenent. He put them in a seperate one, meaning they stack.

ps. melee haste is 20% talented for dk's and shamans.

I dunno how a dev can claim we just mash buttons and it's no fun... sure we have an optimum cast cycle but I know I typically wind up casting my DPS cycle + Treants + IS + FF + decurse + battle res (too many nubs in raid) + innervate + the odd heal. Compare that to a mage/lock who casts two or three spells. If we're playing as a hybrid/utility character there is already too much to do. Adding eclipse is pointless and only makes it less fun, and if we're playing to be an optimum DPS caster and ignore the other aspects then button mashing will always be king.

As for Dreamstate/Intensity and spirit, they could potentially solve the problem by changing Dreamstate to be spirit based regen instead of int. Essentially duplicate the intensity talent in the balance tree. Keeps spirit important and keeps points in the balance tree. And if they wanted to make it more interesting then they add another small bonus too it - intensity gives more rage when a feral enrages, why not make dreamstate grant something on a balance on use ability - maybe extra mp5 for 15 seconds on changing to moonkin form, or extra spell damage for 15 seconds on changing to moonkin. If they want "fun" and playing like a hybrid that'd also encourage shifting form to do something else.

Well mages do also cast sheep... and we'll be casting Roots WOOT!!!!

Maybe Eclipse could be a talent similar to Arcane Blast, where casting Starfire makes your next Wrath x% More and do x% more damage, and have the talent work the other way as well. Then have the damage/mana increase stack, so that weaving the two spells creates the mana dump.

Improved divine spirit doesn't stack with other spell damage buffs like flametongue totem and the like

Fun is in the eye of the beholder. If you're perhaps raiding 25-man instances then you might prefer to keep it simple since you need to concentrate on whats going on around you. For us with Druid alts, then it is just fun to have a class that doesn't behave the same way as our main.

Now, I wonder if it would not be more constructive to voice how button mashing could have a negative impact, rather than voicing that is simply not fun. For example, will the Eclipse talent become a necessary dps-increase, while the buff itself is done in such manner that it is hard to use it unless you totally focus on your row of buff icons? As Elemental Shaman, the buff itself looks similar to our Elemental Focus in the sense it triggers sporadically and is only up for a relative short duration. However, as I understand it, Eclipse is different from Elemental Focus in the way that you've to notice that it is up and change your cast sequence in order to profit from it. This mechanism could perhaps be a problem in a hectic boss fight, but I wager testing will tell.

Regarding the wotlk wish-list with how Dreamstate should be changed, then it would not surprise me if Blizzard is relative happy with this talent. I wager that since Dreamstate is in tier 6, there is no need to add additional effects to it, since Feral and Restoration Druids will not take it. Meanwhile, for spirit based regen, then Intensity is actually in range to take for Balance Druids, giving them mana regeneration from both spirit and intellect. Of course, there are now so many new talents in the Balance Tree that you are forced to sacrifice some in order to boost your mana regen, but Blizzard has stated that their intention is to bloat the talent-trees.

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Yep, don't we all wish to have beta access, since in the end our own ideas are far superior. However, if we should wish for things we don't have, then I would go for money and time myself.

Now, I wonder if there is really a dire need to create a brand new spell to achive what Innervate already does to a lesser degree. You could argue that Innervate should have lower cooldown, or perhaps that it should not be castable on others. The possibilities are endless, so why not just leave it with a general desire that if Spirit should be on rings, necks and weapons, then it would be equally nice if every caster class had some way to profit from this stat. It wouldn't surprise me though, in the light of Elemental Shamans and Warlocks, if Blizzard view Moonkins as a class and spec that has its share of spirit-based talents and spells.

Addendum:
Reading comprehension for the win. That is the prize to post before you've got enough coffee in your system. Ok, pardon for the above. You asked for a mana dump, not a spirit based mana regen. Well, by all reports the mana costs is not finalized and I believe there was a blue post stating that Moonkins had currently a bit too good mana regen. Regardless, if Moonkins will be moved to be an AoE class, then the mana consumption could potentially shot through the roof and give the desired mana dump.

Cooldown on Eclipse has been reduced to 30s. The duration is still thirty seconds. I assume this means that you have the opportunity to refresh it as soon as it goes down.

Evaluation:

In http://elitistjerks.com/879299-post670.html I listed a Wrath rotation, MF IS Wr*10 which I will call 100% dps. I listed a IS SF*5 rotation which did 94.3% dps.

Strategy: Take 3/3 Eclipse. Use the SF rotation until Eclipse procs, then use the Wrath rotation until Eclipse fades.

In that post, SF had a crit rate of 42% (35% from gear and raid buffs, 4% from NM, and 3% from IIS). At 42% crit, it takes an average of 2.4 casts to get a crit. With 3/3 Eclipse, you need an average of 1.7 crits to proc the buff.

It will take an average of 2.4*1.7 = 4 SF casts to proc the buff. You almost certainly won't notice the proc until you've queue'd your next spell (either IS or a Nature's Graced SF). In all you will have spent about 14.1s doing the low-dps rotation, and wasted about 2.1s of the buff duration.

You've now got about 27.9s to use the Wrath rotation. Wrath will do 10% extra damage, but that will add only about 7.5% extra damage to the rotation as a whole (which will still use IS and MF).

14.1s @ 94.3% DPS
27.9s @ 107.5% DPS

ends up doing about 103% DPS. Your 3 talent points bought you 3% dps, and some mana efficiency (since the SF rotation is more mana efficient). That makes those points a better investment than things like CF (slightly less than 1% dps per talent point) if you can pay enough attention to maintain the weaving.

I'd feel better about this result if it were confirmed by a simulator. It is easy to make mistakes in closed-form computations about spell weaving.

This result is very dependent on your crit rate, and the ratio in DPS between your SF and Wrath rotations. If either of those change very much at all, the value of Eclipse will change significantly. Eclipse is at its best when both SF and Wrath do the same DPS, and you have very high crit rates. At low crit rates (or large DPS differences between the spells) Eclipse becomes much weaker.

Edit: spelling and grammar