So, I spent all day reading this crazy-long thread, and as interested as I am in Eclipse and other things, my real question is about mana. All the math masters here, in their sample specs, seem to not be spec'ing into any of the standard mana-return talents. To put it simply: is the new moonkin aura mana return sufficient to make up for all those talents we used to depend on?
(By "all those talents we used to depend on," I guess I just mean intensity, moonglow and dreamstate. OoC is in the mix now, too, but has been pretty well discounted, from what I've seen.)
This probably : Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Leftover points to be put in dreamstate probably, or some dps talent depending on how things work.
So, I spent all day reading this crazy-long thread, and as interested as I am in Eclipse and other things, my real question is about mana. All the math masters here, in their sample specs, seem to not be spec'ing into any of the standard mana-return talents. To put it simply: is the new moonkin aura mana return sufficient to make up for all those talents we used to depend on?
(By "all those talents we used to depend on," I guess I just mean intensity, moonglow and dreamstate. OoC is in the mix now, too, but has been pretty well discounted, from what I've seen.)
I did ZA today with just intensity and moonglow, although i did have a retadin for JoW, BoW and whatever their replenish effect is called. I never went below 50% mana and rarely below 75%, no pots, no innervates, drank before one boss. Even in a 10 man where replenish effects should be less than in a 25man. I planning to respec out of both and hit the dps talents hard, when my server comes back up. Mana does not appear to be a problem. I made mana off of every hurricane, a lot of mana btw.
Autrui, the reason why it has been suggested not to take many mana regen talents:
- Mobs will have 30% less health so fights will be much shorter
- You will get mana regen from: Moonkin form, totems, Replenishment, Judgement of Wisdom
For people discussing what spec to pick now.
Considering that both Moonfury and Earth&Moon are still 5 point talents (hopefully that will be rectified in a future patch), I have decided to go with: 56/0/5
Until WLK ships, I am raiding regularly in Mount Hyjal and Black Temple. So with the build above, I attempted to min/max for that. All talents taken are supposed to increase damage. No fun/solo/pvp talents taken with the exception of Starfall.
As you can see, I haven't taken any mana regen talents. I want to test the build as it is to see if I can last without going OOM solely with the help of the Moonkin form and raid wide buffs mentioned above.
If I found out that it's not possible, I am going to drop Eclipse and Starfall and put those two points into Dreamstate. At the moment, I really can't see any other excess points that could be dropped into more mana regen (other than maybe Nature's Splendor).
I dont believe nature's splendor is necessary if you're running with starfire / moonfire glyphs.
As your starfire puts 3 seconds back on the duration of your moonfire dot which is ticking 75% harder.
Only if you don't use insect swarm in your rotation. The extra tick of IS might not be worth it, but you can fit in another starfire into a rotation, giving a pretty decent dps increase.
Actually yeah, ima go with Natural Splendor only to free my hunters from scorpsting, MF->IS->xSF will be my rotation (ignoring first eclipse cause it'll make MF fade, at 1min to the fight I start counting eclipses -1/3 ofcourse)
A note on Thorns/Brambles
Actually, Brambles does boost the scaling damage. I tested this myself, watching how much damage was reflected as I took each additional point in brambles.
It multiplied it AFTER the damage from my spell power was taken into account. This is a huge relief, what it means is that the damage hike from 25 to 73 in Wotlk base damage actually has the smallest impact when considering the 3 factors of base damage, spell power and Brambles boost.
I use to have a problem with Thorns damage as well as it's limited implementation, but now I think the damage is fine as brambles does take into account spell power. Your thorns though uses the targets spell power, this makes it a weak buff compared to Ret aura, but seeing that the effect will stack with ret aura, and that on you it is more powerful damage wise in your spell power gear is not a bad thing.
I read the thread, and this is the most up-to-date post I could find on the subject:
Brambles increases the contribution from spell power as well on yourself, but on your target, it scales with their spell power - making it decent on paladin tanks but kinda crappy on warrior tanks.
Can someone estimate how much will thorns be hitting for at 70 with ~1000 spell power with and without brambles?
I read the thread, and this is the most up-to-date post I could find on the subject:
Brambles increases the contribution from spell power as well on yourself, but on your target, it scales with their spell power - making it decent on paladin tanks but kinda crappy on warrior tanks.
Can someone estimate how much will thorns be hitting for at 70 with ~1000 spell power with and without brambles?
Assuming scaling before talents is 6.5% (reported earlier in the thread, but I'm not sure that number is conclusive).
If target has E&M Debuf, throw in 18%.
If the moonkin is being hit, add 5% (E&M) and possibly 4% (MS)
90*1.75*1.18*1.05*1.04 = 202.9
On beta brambles does not enhance the spelldmg part, only base dmg.
And the % from player buffs modifiers are all additive, and you consider the E&M 5% bonus twice in you calc (18% and then another 5%)
(25*1.75 + 1000*.065) * (1+.04+0.5) * 1.13 = 189
If its the same behaviour as on beta
Hello.
Light the fuse.
For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.
On beta brambles does not enhance the spelldmg part, only base dmg.
And the % from player buffs modifiers are all additive, and you consider the E&M 5% bonus twice in you calc (18% and then another 5%)
(25*1.75 + 1000*.065) * (1+.04+0.5) * 1.13 = 189
If its the same behaviour as on beta
Brambles was fixed a while ago on beta to affect both the base and the scaling of Thorns. I'm not sure if any spell damage debuffs on the person hitting you have any effect, I don't think they did in 2.4.3, and I'd be surprised if they added that in for 3.0, but not too surprised.
Brambles was fixed a while ago on beta to affect both the base and the scaling of Thorns. I'm not sure if any spell damage debuffs on the person hitting you have any effect, I don't think they did in 2.4.3, and I'd be surprised if they added that in for 3.0, but not too surprised.
While leveling on beta i noticed that thorns scaled with the E&M-13%-debuff.
Then it should be something around
(25+1000*.065) * (1 +0.75 + 0.04 + 0.05) * 1.13 = 187.1
Hello.
Light the fuse.
For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.
30% more aoe damage will give you a lot more raid dps than 4% intellect will.
You may want to think about nature's focus if you think you'll do content that gives pushback. That said, pushback isn't as bad as it used to be. If you're under the effect of concentration aura which is likely, you lose .325 cast time per pushback incurred.
yeah, Balance of Power is definitely a talent that is useful. Though at the moment in my minimum spellhit gear i already have 150 spell hit rating. If i am correct (with the new tallents) that is over capped already now. 150 spell hit = roughly 12%, imp FF 3%, 1 tallent balance of power 2% makes 17%. that is already over capped. (dranei racial also gives 1%?)
about AOE dmg that is something i haven't considered yet.
Last night I raided BT, then destroyed Scholo and BRD (achievements!), and I can happily say that mana was not an issue. I only innervated on trash, because the tanks were chain-pulling.
I did find that my one point in Owlkin Frenzy was very well spent. RoS was pretty awesome. (And obviously, it was great doing the lowbie instances. I pulled the Emporer in BRD before clearing all the trash in his room--none of us could remember if it would aggro with him, and it did. Funny stuff. After a couple of hits, there were no pushback issues there, either.)
However, my enh shammy friend made me realize just how nice it would be to squeeze out one more point for Typhoon; he used their new knockback ability to great effect. Now, sure, that's not great for most raid bosses, but with the new achievements, I will probably be doing enough lowbie instances to make that point worth the investment.
I'll probably go 61/0/0 tonight. That's almost identical to Conquistador's build, posted above, but with a point in Owlkin Frenzy instead of Nature's Splendor. (The only reason I chose 1/3 Eclipse over Nature's Splendor is that I wanted to give it a shot. Chances are, I'll prefer having the latter.)
Also worth noting is that iMotW seems *much* less attractive now. I don't know if I just missed this, or if it wasn't announced, but GotW now buffs the entire raid. Pretty much all restos are going to get it, so I don't feel obliged to spec into it at all.
Well, I'm uncertain which path to take to maximize the usefulness of my druid in Sunwell. Should I continue doing mainly single-target DPS and take the talents helpful for it or go all out with improving AoE damage such as Hurricane and Starfall. I have yet to do Sunwell after the patch, since my druid's server was not functional last night, but I would appreciate feedback on the greatness (or lack of thereof) of our AoE abilities in raids from those who've experienced them already.
This would be a generic-looking Moonfire + Starfire spam spec, given Moonfire and Starfire glyphs: ~Link to spec~
(warlocks have stated that they'd rather not be casting imp CoE). Does Nature's Splendor stack with the Starfire glyph?
I suppose Natural Shapeshifter and imp. MoW are not necessary if mana will not be an issue and restoration druids will cover buffing the raid. Master Shapeshifter seems nice though.
Thats the spec I am going with right now to raid. Once I get the points back from Earth and Moon, etc. I will put a point in to the treants and then either brambles or improved AOE, or typhoon. I got improved swarm so that my Starfires crit more = more mana.
BTW. Anyone know what we need to be hit capped now?
now it really is 215 hit rating, before it was 202 as the last 1% miss could not be countered by hit
other values are
190 1/2 BoP 15+2%
177 0/2 BoP + SP/IFF 14+3%
164 2/2 BoP 13+4%
152 1/2 BoP + SP/IFF 12+2+3%
127 2/2 BoP + SP/IFF 10+4+3%
That's with 17% misses on boss mobs
Hello.
Light the fuse.
For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.
now it really is 215 hit rating, before it was 202 as the last 1% miss could not be countered by hit
other values are
190 1/2 BoP 15+2%
177 0/2 BoP + SP/IFF 14+3%
164 2/2 BoP 13+4%
152 1/2 BoP + SP/IFF 12+2+3%
127 2/2 BoP + SP/IFF 10+4+3%
I did ZA today with just intensity and moonglow, although i did have a retadin for JoW, BoW and whatever their replenish effect is called. I never went below 50% mana and rarely below 75%, no pots, no innervates, drank before one boss. Even in a 10 man where replenish effects should be less than in a 25man. I planning to respec out of both and hit the dps talents hard, when my server comes back up. Mana does not appear to be a problem. I made mana off of every hurricane, a lot of mana btw.
What were your self-buffed specs (mp5, crit, spellpower, etc) on that run?
I'm making the switch from feral to moonkin. I've picked up a bunch of t4/t5 offspec stuff, and am wondering how I might compare - especially on the mp5.
I did a full Sunwell clear today in 1 hour and 20 minutes or so! Everything died incredibly fast, and the raid DPS was high (top DPS on Brutallus was 3700 or so, if I remember correctly). My impressions from that run are as follows:
I would recommend putting 2 points into Gale Winds, as Hurricane is indeed amazing at the moment. Starfall damage was underwhelming at 35% of base mana cost, although with the current Hurricane mana regeneration on crits, such price was barely noticeable.
I did not take any mana regeneration talents and never ran out of mana or was even close to it, at least in part due to shorter boss fights, but the net mana loss was not very high.
DPS range was 2000-2500 reliably for single target on average in Sunwell level gear doing Moonfire + Starfire spam (with imp. FF up and Moonfire glyph).
10/14/08, 9:39 PM
(Deanshj@Neptulon is my char)
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