Moonkin WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion - Page 52

• Adoriele · 09/15/08, 7:18 PM

I'm writing up a spreadsheet to work through rotations, etc. after playing with things from Beta. One thing I've noticed as I'm writing it:

Given 600 Spi, 900 Int, no MP5 from gear, 5/5 Furor:
Dreamstate gives 99 MP5.
Intensity gives 202 MP5.
BoW+Mana Spring gives 215 MP5.

Replenishment gives 452 MP5. That's almost as much as all the others combined. It's almost as much as I have on live, outside of the five second rule. For anyone who thinks we're going to have mana problems, don't. I did most of my testing of the Starfire glyph grouped up with a Ret pally. I literally could not spend mana fast enough to be an issue.

Ranghar · 09/16/08, 6:16 AM

By "Replenishment" you mean deep resto talent or on-crit moonkin mana regeneration?

Anaram · 09/16/08, 6:30 AM

Originally Posted by Ranghar

By "Replenishment" you mean deep resto talent or on-crit moonkin mana regeneration?

That would be shadow priest/surv hunter/ret pala ability.

Erdluf · 09/16/08, 8:43 AM

Originally Posted by erragal

Moonfire does maintain the periodic damage determined at the time of application. I have not tested the impact of moonfire idol switching yet, but that's certainly the best place for us to activate our trinkets early.

That is good to know. It probably isn't worth while to do anything extraordinary to get (or maintain) trinketed MF. Before talents, glyph, and raid buffs, MF dot has only 4% coef per second, so a +200 trinket adds only 8 DPS. With glyph, talents and buffs it will be closer to 10%. 20 dps is nice, but not worth messing up your rotation.

Compare that to stacked Lifebloom. At its peak the coef was about 22% per second (before talents). Combined with the ability to pop two healing trinkets, healers had a strong incentive to make sure the stack never bloomed.

Ulthwithian · 09/16/08, 8:50 AM

Thank you for verifying the WoA/iMKA issue, Erragal.

Adoriele: Have you included the mana received from the Moonkin Form itself?

On a more general note, I'm trying to play 'catch up' with the Moonkin build(s) generally discussed here. About the best that I can come up with that seems to cover all of the useful 'buffs' would be this.

Am I just missing something basic here? I don't claim to be all that good at Moonkin, but the tree doesn't seem like it's working together well. Eclipse wants to make you switch off Wrath and Starfire, but Improved Insect Swarm wants you to focus on either Nature damage or Arcane damage.

More generally, I'm at a loss at understanding the relative ranking of the talents. If someone could enlighten me, I would appreciate it.

Munorion · 09/16/08, 8:58 AM

I don't think you'll need both Dreamstate and Intensity, if what Adoriele wrote will remain as it is. Whether you take Improved Faerie Fire or not probably depends a lot on your usual raid setup - as far as I can see in my guild, I'll pretty much always have at least one shadow priest, who hopefully will take care of the hit debuff.

Ulthwithian · 09/16/08, 9:10 AM

Munorion: May I ask what you (or others here) would suggest to take if dropping those talents (which I can see their being dependent)? Balance of Power looks decent if you're not hit capped (and I clearly am not). I'd like to take Starfall and Typhoon, since they are supposedly hallmark talents, but I realize that raid specs very rarely align with 'player desire'.

Thank you for the prompt reply.

Munorion · 09/16/08, 9:27 AM

Balance of Power and Lunar Guidance is what I'd definitely take. Even the nerfed version of Lunar Guidance will be something like 70 +dmg raidbuffed at level 70. Otherwise, I'll wait to see how raid encounters in general turn out to be. If there's a good deal of AoE going on, Gale Winds might be a good investement (and/or Typhoon and Starfall even).

Edit:
I haven't seen this mentioned yet:

Originally Posted by Koraa

We're talking about a talent to give you a Spirit-converts-into-something ability. We don't want to add a new talent though, so we'd likely bundle it or replace an existing one.

Source: MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Re: Balance @ GC or Koraa

Erdluf · 09/16/08, 9:58 AM

Originally Posted by Ulthwithian

On a more general note, I'm trying to play 'catch up' with the Moonkin build(s) generally discussed here. About the best that I can come up with that seems to cover all of the useful 'buffs' would be this.

I posted a ranking of DPS talents at http://elitistjerks.com/878434-post655.html . I think those numbers are still reasonably good (I haven't rerun numbers. Ike nuked my power). If it turns out you don't need OOC and Intensity, you could improve your single target DPS by shifting points from Resto to Balance.

Spending 12 points to get Furor and Master Shapeshifter was worth about 110 DPS (at 2000 spellpower).

Putting those points into Balance (best to worst: Balance of Power, Lunar Guidance, Starfall, Genesis) would be worth almost 280 DPS. This still lets you keep Moonglow and Dreamstate (which may not be necessary).

If you get even a moderate amount of pushback, Nature's Focus is better than Genesis (and may be better than IIS, and IMF).

For the run from 70-80, (solo, 5-man, some small group quests), I'd expect the emphasis to be on managing groups of mobs. I'm not sure what my build will be on 11/13, but I expect it to include Typhoon, Gale Winds, Brambles, Owlkin Frenzy, Starfall, and Nature's Focus.

• Adoriele · 09/16/08, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Ulthwithian

Adoriele: Have you included the mana received from the Moonkin Form itself?

On a more general note, I'm trying to play 'catch up' with the Moonkin build(s) generally discussed here. About the best that I can come up with that seems to cover all of the useful 'buffs' would be this.

Am I just missing something basic here? I don't claim to be all that good at Moonkin, but the tree doesn't seem like it's working together well. Eclipse wants to make you switch off Wrath and Starfire, but Improved Insect Swarm wants you to focus on either Nature damage or Arcane damage.

More generally, I'm at a loss at understanding the relative ranking of the talents. If someone could enlighten me, I would appreciate it.

The mana from Moonkin Form and OoC aren't added into any of those numbers yet, as I'm keeping passive and active regen separate (well, I guess active regen isn't regen, but you get the idea). The sheet I'm working up will try to deal with them, though. Having added in the raid buffs and Moonkin Form to the sheet for starfire already, though, I can easily say that Starfire spam will literally not be able to spend mana as fast as it regens. Assuming you have the SF glyph, that means you can keep both SF and MF up infinitely. I have a hard time believing that it's intended, except that I haven't modeled hit yet (so my numbers are a tiny bit off from what you could likely expect as soon as you ding 80), and that the DPS is pretty poor at this point, about 2500 (well, poor is a relative term, I guess). It's likely that you'll have to use some form of rotation in order to get good DPS, though as expected that will involve more mana output.

erragal · 09/16/08, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

I have a hard time believing that it's intended, except that I haven't modeled hit yet (so my numbers are a tiny bit off from what you could likely expect as soon as you ding 80), and that the DPS is pretty poor at this point, about 2500 (well, poor is a relative term, I guess). It's likely that you'll have to use some form of rotation in order to get good DPS, though as expected that will involve more mana output.

I'm going to make some suggestions on the PTR forum today regarding our mana usage/rotations. We have two new spells in Typhoon and Starfall, but neither of them are useful in ST DPS situations. If they want to drain some of our mana in the process of upping our DPS the best way is to rebalance either ability to be a viable ST dps mana dump.

Typhoon right now isn't even worth the cooldown in PVE aoe situations as it's going to be very challenging to hit every enemy, particularly if you're standing near the AOE pack in case of aggro. Considering the damage drop off to just using hurricane is minimal, it's not worth potentially missing targets. I don't see why it isn't rebalanced as a high damage burst single target knockback ability which is more what we need in PVP and PVE. It would also give Gale Winds strong viability as a single-target DPS talent depending on how many Typhoons you would get off during a boss encounter.

Is there a significant reason anyone feels Typhoon should be a column aoe type ability? I know it has some PVP utility, but wouldn't a higher burst damage instant provide more of what we're lacking?

• Adoriele · 09/16/08, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by erragal

Is there a significant reason anyone feels Typhoon should be a column aoe type ability? I know it has some PVP utility, but wouldn't a higher burst damage instant provide more of what we're lacking?

My gut feeling is that it's not really intended as a PvE spell. Knockback's not useful in PvE, and could even be a hindrance in situations like Tidewalker or Hyjal trash if you end up knocking mobs out of the AoE zone. I also like the mechanic of it, it feels like a meaty spell to use when I've had the chance to pop it. But in the sense of how useful it is? I don't know. I don't PvP on Ador (because I suck at it), but I don't think knockback's a huge necessity. We're a tank* in PvP, and with enough pushback protection I can't see really needing to worry so much. But please feel free to correct me, I honestly know almost nothing about PvPing as a Moonkin.

A note about my figure earlier: It included 3/3 Moonglow and 3/3 Intensity. In fact, the whole spec was Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft for reference. I'll do another check with no talents once I get a chance. Also, having finally had a chance to use Starfall in Beta on my main, wow do I like it.

Montegomery · 09/16/08, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by erragal

I'm going to make some suggestions on the PTR forum today regarding our mana usage/rotations. We have two new spells in Typhoon and Starfall, but neither of them are useful in ST DPS situations. If they want to drain some of our mana in the process of upping our DPS the best way is to rebalance either ability to be a viable ST dps mana dump.

Typhoon right now isn't even worth the cooldown in PVE aoe situations as it's going to be very challenging to hit every enemy, particularly if you're standing near the AOE pack in case of aggro. Considering the damage drop off to just using hurricane is minimal, it's not worth potentially missing targets. I don't see why it isn't rebalanced as a high damage burst single target knockback ability which is more what we need in PVP and PVE. It would also give Gale Winds strong viability as a single-target DPS talent depending on how many Typhoons you would get off during a boss encounter.

Is there a significant reason anyone feels Typhoon should be a column aoe type ability? I know it has some PVP utility, but wouldn't a higher burst damage instant provide more of what we're lacking?

I've played around with Typhoon on the PTR a bit and I think it has better range than you give it credit for. In most of the AoE situations I've seen (up to Morogrim) I can't think of one where hitting all the desired targets was anymore difficult for Typhoon as compared to any other AoE. Dragon's Breath and Cone of Cold have similar ranges, yet we still see them being cast by Mages.

I don't believe burst damage instants will solve any Moonkin PvE issues. Elemental Shaman and Destruction Warlocks generally don't use any of their burst instants in their DPS rotations unless they're forced to DPS on the move. I'm fairly certain the same is true for Mages. PvP wise your single target knockback would be good for BGs/Winter's Grasp but inferior in Arenas. Typhoon right now can interrupt an entire assist train, whether it's on you or someone else, your change would destroy that utility.

erragal · 09/16/08, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

My gut feeling is that it's not really intended as a PvE spell. Knockback's not useful in PvE, and could even be a hindrance in situations like Tidewalker or Hyjal trash if you end up knocking mobs out of the AoE zone. I also like the mechanic of it, it feels like a meaty spell to use when I've had the chance to pop it. But in the sense of how useful it is? I don't know. I don't PvP on Ador (because I suck at it), but I don't think knockback's a huge necessity. We're a tank* in PvP, and with enough pushback protection I can't see really needing to worry so much. But please feel free to correct me, I honestly know almost nothing about PvPing as a Moonkin.

Starfall:I really love the way it is, even though I feel it doesn't do enough damage for the 3 minute cooldown (Who wouldn't love to be using it every minute?) It certainly isn't nearly as powerful as living bomb if comparing 51 point dps caster aoe talents. Very powerful in PVP however due to it getting the 15% chance to stun.

I really do enjoy the mechanics of typhoon, and I love the tsunami style animation. My concern is that it doesn't even have a niche right now. If it's intended for PVP, it would be much more useful as a higher damage single target attack. That's what we're missing: instant burst damage (The reason people complain about ret pallies is that all their damage is burst, which is very powerful in PVP). The knockback is extremely powerful in PVP because it's the closest we're likely to get to a spell interrupt/silence with additional utility against melee. It's problematic because it goes with where you're facing, not who you have targeted.

If it's intended for PVE the column based aoe is a difficult functional limitation and the knockback component is either useless or potentially a negative for knocking packs out of a spot. And as I mentioned, it's a minimal DPS increase over hurricane.

Typhoon is ostensibly meant to be the 'new balance' spell from 70-80, I just feel it needs a tighter focus instead of where it is now: trying to do everything. It ends up being PVP utility only, without addressing our lack of burst damage there. But I also want to see if other people see an important niche for it that I might be missing.

EDIT: Responses to the above post:

Do you feel it can solve assist trains if people are in front and behind you? The facing issue seems very inadequate for actually getting people off of you, and the knockback is very brief. I may be underestimating the range just due to the huge delay between cast and damage being dealt.

The new 51 point fire mage and frost mage talents are instant burst damage spells that are important part of their rotations, particularly Living Bomb which acts as a mana dump. Warlocks Conflag keeps getting tuned in a way that seems to be pushing them to incorporate it. Shadow Priests have SW

eath and Mind Blast as burst damage spells on cooldown. I don't even think a burst damage instant is the be all, end all...but it's easier to suggest a modification of Typhoon to fill a hole than being generic or making up talents.

I suppose my contention is that in arenas/pvp situations I've been in I would have valued a strong instant burst ability with the spell interrupt, over a mild burst ability interrupt hitting multiple people. I can definitely see the value as a support attack when a healer is being assisted on...but doesn't Starfall serve a similar purpose with the stun?

What type of thoughts do you have on a way to utilize our mana that doesn't just double the mana cost of Starfire?

♦ Lorewanderer · 09/16/08, 12:24 PM

I was disappointed to find out that I couldn't make it to the testing dummies on my own as a 70 (74 to get ported up, and I didn't catch any mages/warlocks on who could summon me), so I didn't do any testing on coefficients. When the locks I know get to 74 I'll copy over a fresh version and see.

Starfall:
This is is a very fun spell. Casting it then standing/running about while it rains down on everything around you is a blast.
The size of the AOE got me in trouble a few times early on, as I'd have four or five mobs on me to start and it would aggro an additional few I hadn't realized were close enough. Once I got a feel for the range though, I went to town with it.
It remains to be seen where the cutoff is for useful numbers of clumped mobs from a DPS perspective. I hope it is competitive, because it is so much fun I'd hate to see it get passed over.
I can see it having some very amusing PvP implications, as you can be doing other things while the stars rain down. My experience as balance is almost exclusively PvE though, so I'll leave it to those with more familiarity to comment on it there.