Maybe I should try out Force of Nature... did they remove the cooldown? Can't see it in the telent's spell description O_o

Eclipse, BoP, FoN and Gale Winds will all give more DPS for less points. While every other Moonkin is struggling to get all the core talents needed you seem to be the only one with to many talent points.

Does anyone know if it's still not worth it with improved FF? With +3% hit +3% crit it now seems quite desirable since you can now drop some gear or gem differently to drop the 3% hit from your gear.

I also see a lot of people getting Insect Swarm all the way up to Improved Insect Swarm - I doubt people only take this for the Starfire effect, which would seem like a huge waste. Do people actually use Insect Swarm now? Is it a dps increase?

Sorry if i lost something but wasn't Moonfury and Earth and Moon down to 3 ranks from 5?

Yes but it hasn't been implemented yet, we're expecting it in the next patch.

I have some deep interrogations about how I should spec to get the most out of the spec. Even now though, I'm rejoiced by a very noticeable damage increase.
However, talent points are few enough for me to want to be conservative with them.

On with the show:

Do you think there's a point getting Imp. Moonfire at all if glyphed Moonfire? Same question regarding Nature's Splendor?
Do you think there is a point taking Force of Nature without Brambles in a PVE environment? In addition, are the treants viable at all now in a PVE environment in the first place?
Do you think taking Typhoon is justified in a PVE environment? If not, do you think taking Gale Winds has a point?

How do you value Improved Moonfire by comparison to Genesis?
Finally, what would you sacrifice to get up to Omen of Clarity in the resto tree and why?

2 points in moonfire increases its damage by 10%. Where as genesis only does 2% for the same 2 points. And IMP Moonfire also increase the initial hit.

Now, genesis does affect Roots and insect swarm.

Right now w/o the 3rd glyph (Insect Swarm Glyph) available at 70, I am focusing mainly on MFxStarfire. The amount of haste that raid buffs gives, brings my starfire down to a 1.96cast with nature's grace. MY DPS seemed to suffer casting insect swarm, compared to just spamming starfire. I attribute it to the all the haste gained from buffs.

I hope we continue to scale well @ 80.

Regarding Man Regeneration

Dont worry about it. Dump all 61 points in balance. I did take moonglow. But I have no mana regen talents and we did sunwell last night. I never had to take a potion or innervate myself.

Every single one of your questions is answered in this thread. Please read it thoroughly. Adoriele's spreadsheet alone would answer the vast majority of them.

The one thing I will say again is that Force of Nature's viability is based in large part on your skill in placement and timing. They were about 6% of my total damage on the Felmyst fight which has a large amount of aoe, solely due to my timing of placement. With just one cast on Brutallus they were worth 9% of my total damage and I missed having them out for bloodlust and a second cast. They scale very well with the raid buffs as I've seen multiple 1k+ crits from them (And they crit often now). Next week I'm speccing out of dreamstate and into brambles as my mana has been quite stellar, and I feel our estimates of brambles have been way too low being based on pre-3.0 FoN damage.


An interesting development on the rolling moonfire front: If owlkin frenzy is up when you first apply moonfire it will carry through just like a temporary spell power buff would. Obviously owlkin frenzy is almost entirely uncontrollable...but this has some more significant implications with Tricks of the Trade. If you get a chance on beta Adoriele, you might want to test if this is also applying to ToTT. We would be the best early target for that if we can roll it throughout the whole fight.


I've been running Owlkin Frenzy over genesis with my additional points due to the vast amount of aoe in Sunwell encounters. I've been very satisified with the uptime in those encounters, but it's certainly a talent that varies. It seems like it could be an option for our dual-spec if your guild never needs you to heal, so you can take advantage of encounters like Sapphiron where it would be a significant DPS increase.

A few minor notes for theory crafters:

5/5 Moonfury boosts tooltip numbers for MF/Wr/SF by 10% (rounded). In BC this wasn't always accurate (Moonfury boosted SF tooltip by almost 12%). Idol of the Avenger is added to Wrath tooltip range, and also gets the Moonfury boost.

Tooltips adjust to show Nature's Splendor results.

Thorns scaling, untalented, is between 6.59% and 6.62%.
Brambles boosts base and scaled damage.
Owlkin Frenzy multiplies with Brambles, so Thorns damage is (25 + 6.6%*spell)*175%*110%. Supporting numbers
And just in case you ever cast a heal, BC coefficients, multiplied by 17/9 work pretty well, except for

0/0/0 Lifebloom HoT (per tick) is between 9.44% and 9.55% Spellpower, per tick. (Down from BC)
0/0/0 Tranquility (per tick) is between 53.76% and 53.93% Spellpower, per tick (Up from BC).

Interestingly last night I had Owlkin Frenzy proc during the third boss in Heroic Underbog and I was immune to the frost trap that he does.

In a raid situation, assuming there is a shadow priest, then NO.

Raid buffed. I had an overall 65% crit rating with my spells.

Imp IS gives 3% addition crit to starfire while Moonfire is up. Match that with the Starfire Glyph (+3secs refresh to MF), and the MF glyph, you have to only cast moonfire once in the beginning of the fight. You have a constant dot, you never have to refresh, and its constantly increasing your main nuke crit rate by 3%.

Question on the MF glyph the tooltips states Increases the periodice damage of your Moonfire ability by 75% but initial damage is decreased by 90%. Is the initial damage decrease a big deal? I don't see how you can cast it once and it stay up the whole fight?. I have iIS and the Starfire Glyph

2nd question is on idols, without doing idol switches during casting which would be the best idol to equip and leave equiped? Assuming rotation of IS, MF, SFx

Considering that Moonkin Aura is raid wide, i'd recommend the Raven idol (extra crit aura), if another moonkin is running that then the SF idol is still the best.

Im going to be switching my main to a Boomkin, My main right now is a lock but I'm swaping due to not having a boomkin in the raid.

I see FF as a useful spell because it is giving you an extra 3% crit and its giving hte raid 3% hit, this is greater then what a shadow priest can put up, both the priest and the FF are the same % but FF gives us 3% crit so why not take the 3 points when its a 45 second debuff?

Also its worth taking the imp IS for the simple fact we are moonfire then starfire spam and moonfire gives you an extra 3% crit right there.
Please tell me what you think of this spec:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I'm in much the same boat, going to be switching to moonkin for Wrath.

FF is indeed useful, and ImpFF is useful as well especially if it applies to FF other than your own (resto/feral druid). The only problem is if you have some other form of 3% spell hit (misery) and minor armor debuff (FFF, CoR, Hunter pet), it costs you DPS to keep it up even if you gain 3% crit. This is due to the fact that its such a short debuff you'd need to spend around 4% of your total casting time keeping it up. Shadow Priests can keep the spellhit debuff up for free, just by using their standard damaging rotation. And the talents they spend on it increases the damage of 2 of their main spells.

I don't think anyone would pass up Imp IS if they are following any sort of SF with MF rider rotation. It's a free 3% crit to your main nuke, pretty much a no brainer.

You seem to have picked up all the major talents in your build. I personally would take that one point from Dreamstate and put it in Nature's Splendor if you plan on putting IS in your build. Or putting it in FoN if not.

It is, however, 3% crit for 4 talent points.

While you can't look it like that 100% due to getting a new spell with it, if you are going MF SF*x rotations, then the IS part of the 4 points is useless.

Improved FF is useless. You are lowering your DPS by having to cast it every 20 seconds and the Shadow Priest provides the buff already through their normal rotations.

Verdict so far at Lv70:
- Mana regen talents are useless since everything dies so fast. I have one point in Moonglow and nothing else. Haven't even used one Mana Pot yet.
- I think I am dropping Eclipse. Perhaps I need more practice with the dummies but at this stage I don't see any point in it. It messes up my rotations, watching the proc deconcentrates and makes Moonfire drop. Although possibly I just need much more practice in using it and I'll see the benefits once I am used to it.

Will need to do more testing on the dummies on IS>MF>SFx (endless MF through Glyph, refreshing IS) versus just MF>SF spam.

Also would indeed be great if anyone had maths on whether Imp Moonfire talent affect the Moonfire damage refreshed through the Glyph.

Im sorry but FF is a 40 second debuff for 3% crit isnt it? Also casting IS you are loosing more dps then casting FF. Also im going to respec so i can tes the Moonfire thing.

Faerie Fire - Spell - World of Warcraft

its a 40 second debuff, yes on trash it might not be useful but on bosses for sure it will be.

iMF and the Glyph stack, but additively. If you take all MF boosting talents, Genesis included, your MF DoT does exactly double a non-talented DoT. IS is a DPS decrease if you don't have the Glyph, and if you're Glyphing IS you're doing it wrong at 70. It should only be used for augmenting Wrath and the Hit debuff, and with Scorpid Sting being 5% with IS being 3%, any sensible raid will have the Hunter apply it if necessary.

iFF increases your crit chance for 40s, which is roughly equal to 3% extra damage per cast. Say you're only casting SF (which should be true), FF is worth ~half an SF cast pre-NG, so it would have to do 50% of an SF cast worth of damage to be worthwhile. You'd need ~17 casts of Starfire to get that benefit (50%/3% per cast), which means your SF cast time would need to be ~2.35s on average. This is napkin math, FF is actually more than half a cast if you factor NG in, but it also decreases your cast time while it's up. Roughly, though, being able to call FF a DPS upgrade would only be possible at higher gear levels, and then only generally. It's not completely horrible, though.

Again are you saying that at 70 we should use the MF Glyph even though it has a 90% reduction at the beginning and we should take IS out of the rotation? So your rotation becomes MF then SF spam? Because with the MF Glyph MF will stay up during the whole fight?

If you have to move 3 times a minute, IS is an extra 9k/minute (1500 buffed +spell, Splendor, E&M) or 150 DPS.

Take IS.

Which talent is more viable as a haste....Nature's Grace or Celestial Focus? I am not sure if the haste from CF is 3% of my rating or 3% overall haste increase.....if so, that would seem to be more useful over ALL casts than the 0.5 sec decrease in casts from crits (maybe only as high as 50% of your casts). What am I missing?