Again are you saying that at 70 we should use the MF Glyph even though it has a 90% reduction at the beginning and we should take IS out of the rotation? So your rotation becomes MF then SF spam? Because with the MF Glyph MF will stay up during the whole fight?
... Uh, yeah. 75% more damage on the DoT is MORE than enough to cover the 90% on the initial damage, even if you're not refreshing it automatically with the Starfire glyph. For example, untalented, no spellpower, the DD does about 330 damage, call it 420 with a generous crit rate. the DoT does 600, so you're looking at 1020 total. With the Glyph, you're looking at 42 + 600*1.75=1050, or 1092 total, so you're already ahead. Talents affect them both equally, but the DoT gets about as much spellpower per tick as the DD gets total, so 4x times as much overall if you're not refreshing, 5x if you're got Splendor, 6x if you've got 2T6. If you're refreshing with Starfire, it's not even a question. You lose out on what, 380 damage at the start of the fight. You've gained that back in ~3 ticks, and from then on your MF dot is doing ~double the damage it would without the glyph.
A more appropriate question would be whether you should be using the SF glyph or the IS one.
... Uh, yeah. 75% more damage on the DoT is MORE than enough to cover the 90% on the initial damage, even if you're not refreshing it automatically with the Starfire glyph. For example, untalented, no spellpower, the DD does about 330 damage, call it 420 with a generous crit rate. the DoT does 600, so you're looking at 1020 total. With the Glyph, you're looking at 42 + 600*1.75=1050, or 1092 total, so you're already ahead. Talents affect them both equally, but the DoT gets about as much spellpower per tick as the DD gets total, so 4x times as much overall if you're not refreshing, 5x if you're got Splendor, 6x if you've got 2T6. If you're refreshing with Starfire, it's not even a question. You lose out on what, 380 damage at the start of the fight. You've gained that back in ~3 ticks, and from then on your MF dot is doing ~double the damage it would without the glyph.
A more appropriate question would be whether you should be using the SF glyph or the IS one.
OK great thanks a lot. Now the question is if you have the SF glyph and the MF glyph, do you in fact leave IS out of the rotation and cast MF once then spam SF?
Eclipse has been buffed to 20% wrath dmg and 30% SF crit in the latest build.
I don't think extensive theorycrafting is necessary to show that at least 1/3 is likely to be a dps increase. The question now is the utility of points 2 and 3 compared to other options.
(This build also includes E&M and Moonfury to 3 ranks).
According to mmo-champion, the brainless starfire is no more.
Glyph of Starfire - Your Starfire ability increases the duration of your Moonfire effect on the target by 3 sec, up to a maximum of 9 additional seconds. (Old - Didn't have the 9 seconds limit)
it would be interesting to see how this change affects normal spell rotation and eclipse.
Eclipse buffed duration 10s->15s, cool down 40s->30s, wrath dmg 20%, sf crits 30%
Also, other glyph changes affects balance
Glyph of Wrath - Reduces the pushback suffered from damaging attacks while casting your Wrath spell by 50%. (Old - Increases the chance you'll resist spell interruption when casting your Wrath spell by 50%.)
IMO, the old glyph has points on PvP to prevent kick/interruption. Now it is next to useless consider pvp druids would have nature's focus and/or owlkin frenzy.
Glyph of Innervate - Your Innervate spell now grants you full mana regeneration while casting for 20 sec, in addition to the effect on the primary target. Innervate's effect is instead increased by 20% if you are the primary target. (Old - Your innervate ability now has an additional 20% strength mana regeneration effect on you, in addition to the effect on your primary target.)
Just wording difference? 500% * 20% = 100% = full mana regeneration.
Also, the new 3/3 earth and moon grants you 3% spell power, down from 5/5's 5%.
Although it is not a big deal.
Just wording difference? 500% * 20% = 100% = full mana regeneration.
You are trying to compare apples and oranges
Innervate: Increases the target's Spirit based mana regeneration by 400% and allows full mana regeneration while casting. Lasts 20 sec.
Glyph of Innervate - Your Innervate spell now grants you full mana regeneration while casting for 20 sec, in addition to the effect on the primary target. Innervate's effect is instead increased by 20% if you are the primary target.
Spirit based mana regeneration = SBMR
5SR w/o Intensity: 0% of SBMR
5SR Infight Regen. w/ Intensity: 30% of SBMR
5SR +Innervate on yourself: 100% of (SBMR + 4xSBMR + 4x0.2xSBMR) = 5.8xSBMR
5SR +Innervate on others: 100% of SBMR
Wasn't the old glyph with 4.: just 400% * 20% = 80% bonus on your SBMR + full combat regen (intensity or not) = 100% of 1.8x SBMR for you
But if you don't go oom in the first place there is no need for a innervate glyph anyways
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Hm, a request for clarification from someone in beta:
MMO claims:
# Earth and Moon changed from 5 to 3 ranks and now increases spell damage taken by 4/9/13% for 12 seconds and increases your spell damage by 1/2/3%. (Old - Increased Arcane/Fire/Frost/Nature/Shadow damage by 3/5/8%)
So far so good. However, didn't it use to be 5% spell damage? And didn't GC state:
Moonfury and Earth and Moon down to 3 ranks from 5, but keeping the same overall benefit. That buys you 4 extra talent points to get more utility or fun talents.
So... is MMO wrong, or did E&M lose 2% spell damage? I guess you could argue that he meant "1% spell damage per point" when talking about "the same overall benefit", but it would be somewhat at odds with the "CoE" effect staying at 13%.
Glyph of Starfire - Your Starfire ability increases the duration of your Moonfire effect on the target by 3 sec, up to a maximum of 9 additional seconds. (Old - Didn't have the 9 seconds limit)
does make the max length of moonfire max out at +9 seconds (21 or 24 seconds depending on if you took nature's splendor or not) or does it make starfire add 3 second to the moonfire timer 3 times before you have to cast it again?
Makes it only occur up to 3 times. Right now, I'm looking at IS-(MF-SFx3)-(WrathxN-IS). Just doing this rotation timed as the DoTs fall looks like it'll be spectacular.
To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.
I did a bit more coeffecient testing on live (3.02):
FoN (no Brambles) against zero armor: about 450 per non-crit hit, plus about 5% +spell (in 2.x those numbers were 176 base + 6% to 10% spell). I'm assuming the 60 target dummies have about 3800 armor (26.5% DR against 70) based on what I was seeing off of cat auto-attack.
Typhoon, before damage-increasing talents, has a coefficient of about 19.3% (19.37% > coef > 19.24%)
Starfall has a coef of very roughly 2% on the stars, and 0.5% on the splash damage. The "nearby" targets for splash are targets near the druid, not necessarily targets near where the star lands.
Melee 597 267965
-----------------------------------------------------
Type Min Avg Max Count %
Hit 320 531 633 364 61.0%
Glancing 265 392 495 153 25.6%
Dodge 0 0 0 52 8.7%
Crit 658 1046 1248 14 2.3%
Miss 0 0 0 8 1.3%
Parry 0 0 0 6 1.0%
What you'll noticed immediately is that treants get your chars hit rating but don't get any crit you have equiped (14 out of 597 hits ). They did around 26.7k damage per cast, or nearly 150dps if you spread it over the 3mins cd.
Also did some testing w/o spelldmg
Stats 16SP naked in no form
Melee 268 93298
-----------------------------------------------------
Type Min Avg Max Count %
Hit 318 422 504 165 61.6%
Glancing 217 326 421 60 22.4%
Dodge 0 0 0 18 6.7%
Crit 732 813 960 5 1.9%
Miss 0 0 0 20 7.5%
16SP AVG_HIT: 422
1828SP AVG_HIT: 531
(531-422)/(1828-16) = 0.06015 => 6% SP per treanhit (3/3 Brambles in my build).
Originally Posted by Erdluf
I did a bit more coeffecient testing on live (3.02):
FoN (no Brambles) against zero armor: about 450 per non-crit hit, plus about 5% +spell
6% / 1.15 = 5.2%
Something else i noticed
Hits per cast without gear: 268 / 5 = 53.6
Hits per cast with gear/MA: 597 / 10 = 59.7
This is NOT covered with 3% iMA haste!
I have 255 hasterating, translates to 7.78% haste 53.6 * 1.03 * 1.0778 = 59.5
Treants DON'T get your crit, but the DO get your hit AND haste rating!
Testing was done with my level 80 Druid on a Heroic Training Dummy in Thunder Bluff, Mulgore
Last edited by Starfox : 10/18/08 at 10:50 PM.
Reason: missing % sign and relation to post above
Hello.
Light the fuse.
For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.
In the testing I did (although it was far from being a reliable sample so it was just to get a general idea), IS did not reduce my DPS. And if you are using Eclipse, then keeping IS makes sense for augmenting Wrath. Also in the fights that require movement (read: most fights), you can apply IS when you're moving.
But yes, I'd definitely like to see some maths on MF>IS>SFxN vs MF>SFxN (assuming Improved MF and IS are taken and that you have both Glyphs).
I think Eclipse will definitely be useful once the effect is doubled. Also, once Quartz gets updated to show the Eclipse bar, it will be much easier to watch the procs. With the new Eclipse, will 1 point still be the best investement or will 2 or 3 be better?
Right, so i just read the new changes to eclipse and to the SF glyph, and heres some questions;
Would eclipse, if the rotation is correct, would actually give a DPS boost in practice? (E.g. not only on dummies, but on fights when you cant sit and watch procs all the time)
Would using eclipse mean having to keep IS up all the time (assuming that it stays as it is and doesnt actually give a DPS boost without eclipse) or just pop it when eclipse procs, and let it run out until it procs again?
Does the new change to SF glyph mean you're gonna have to renew SF again every so often, making a perfect eclipse rotation with reapplying dots etc a nightmare?
And, as I havent yet, how was your experience so far with the new treants? Ive seen a bit of theory on it a few posts ago, is it actually worth taking along with brables now over 3 points in something else?
In the testing I did (although it was far from being a reliable sample so it was just to get a general idea), IS did not reduce my DPS. And if you are using Eclipse, then keeping IS makes sense for augmenting Wrath. Also in the fights that require movement (read: most fights), you can apply IS when you're moving.
But yes, I'd definitely like to see some maths on MF>IS>SFxN vs MF>SFxN (assuming Improved MF and IS are taken and that you have both Glyphs).
I think Eclipse will definitely be useful once the effect is doubled. Also, once Quartz gets updated to show the Eclipse bar, it will be much easier to watch the procs. With the new Eclipse, will 1 point still be the best investement or will 2 or 3 be better?
After playing with Eclipse against target dummies on live for about 10 minutes, trying to get my UI set up so I could make the best of it, I said fuck it and decided to repurpose ShockAndAwe for Moonkins. For those who don't have an Enhance Shammy, it's a set of bars which allows them to keep track of Shock cooldowns and durations, watch their raid buff uptimes, track the hidden cooldown of WF, etc. I'm going to be setting up SquawkAndAwe to track at least Moonfire, IS, and FF duration and uptime, Eclipse duration and internal cooldown, and OoC internal cooldown. Since it's still in the basic get-it-working phase, I'm open to suggestions on what else should be watched. This will not be a kitchen sink mod. I will likely not include Starfall, Typhoon, or Force of Nature, as those are simple cooldowns without any relevant debuff attached, so no real uptime to track.
As for MF, IS, SFxN vs MF, SFxN, IS still scales poorly unless you have the glyph, but its base damage and basic buffs may be enough to keep it from being abysmal like it used to be. The down side is that you really shouldn't be glyphing it, as that keeps you from glyphing Starfire (though who knows, maybe given the new SF glyph that's not such a bad thing.
So I was reading about rotations after the SF glyph nerf, and I saw someone say this was best: MF,SFx3,WrathxN where N=times before MF falls and I've also seen MF,SFx3,IS,WrathxN. They are saying using wrath in the rotation ends up being higher DPS rotation, but I thought with haste and NG etc, it wasn't?
Hm, a request for clarification from someone in beta:
MMO claims:
So far so good. However, didn't it use to be 5% spell damage? And didn't GC state:
So... is MMO wrong, or did E&M lose 2% spell damage? I guess you could argue that he meant "1% spell damage per point" when talking about "the same overall benefit", but it would be somewhat at odds with the "CoE" effect staying at 13%.
E&M lost 2% spell damage it seems. Ghost Crawler had this to say as reply when it was asked in the beta forums:
Balance dps is really high both at level 70 and 80. We're concerned that we made too many big changes and made their dps too high.
The issue at 70 may be only on big AE pulls because of Hurricane. Lots of groups seem to just be AE tanking everything and AE'ing it down and Hurricane is actually really good for that now.
I'm just a bit confused by the changed to the Starfire glyph. I was under the impression that the original purpose of the glyph was to give us more freedom to utilize eclipse and not have to spend time reapplying two or three duration based effects. Adoriele, have you or any other beta tester inquired as to whether the new glyph is supposed to be 9 seconds per moonfire application or simply cap out at +9 second duration? This may be something worth bringing up with the developers while we have the opportunity to make sure it's working how they intended it to.
Initially I felt the change was simply a duration cap to prevent ridiculous 2 minute + moonfire durations and create a little bit more pressure with the new eclipse (That they left at a 15 second duration). After hearing about the 9 seconds per moonfire application rule it's clear they didn't like our DPS scaling as well as it did. My particular concern is that this is a significant decrease to our critical strike scaling as it reduces the amount of our time that is spent casting Starfire which is our best crit scaling spell. Our crit apparently isn't carrying over to FoN either which is going to be a significant amount of our damage on the majority of fights when timed and placed properly that is not scaling with our crit either (That should probably be bug reported too, just in case).
I also noticed that GC had made a post in regards to the Earth Shock glyph not reducing the ES GCD below 1.0 second where she mentioned it may be a bug and would look into that. It may be beneficial to have wrath bug reported on the beta forum in the same way as it may be that the intention is for wrath to go sub 1.0 seconds which could significantly improve our overall crit/haste scaling when using eclipse.
An additional thought: Adoriele if you put in a feature with your mod that showed the exact time to each moonfire tick and showed an alert every time it ticks would there be the potential for a mid-duration update of moonfire immediately after a tick in order to marginally increase DPS? The idea would be that in the middle of Starfire spam you could get a refresh in order to reset the 9 second counter and hopefully ensure that moonfire lasts the duration of your wrath eclipse proc. Don't bother implementing it if it would be a difficult feature, but if you did I'd be willing to test it manually and see if I could get any results that don't clip ticks too much. Certainly that would require extremely good latency to even be remotely feasible...but it'd also be a way to use our excess mana if so.
I'm just a bit confused by the changed to the Starfire glyph. I was under the impression that the original purpose of the glyph was to give us more freedom to utilize eclipse and not have to spend time reapplying two or three duration based effects. Adoriele, have you or any other beta tester inquired as to whether the new glyph is supposed to be 9 seconds per moonfire application or simply cap out at +9 second duration? This may be something worth bringing up with the developers while we have the opportunity to make sure it's working how they intended it to.
Initially I felt the change was simply a duration cap to prevent ridiculous 2 minute + moonfire durations and create a little bit more pressure with the new eclipse (That they left at a 15 second duration). After hearing about the 9 seconds per moonfire application rule it's clear they didn't like our DPS scaling as well as it did. My particular concern is that this is a significant decrease to our critical strike scaling as it reduces the amount of our time that is spent casting Starfire which is our best crit scaling spell. Our crit apparently isn't carrying over to FoN either which is going to be a significant amount of our damage on the majority of fights when timed and placed properly that is not scaling with our crit either (That should probably be bug reported too, just in case).
I also noticed that GC had made a post in regards to the Earth Shock glyph not reducing the ES GCD below 1.0 second where she mentioned it may be a bug and would look into that. It may be beneficial to have wrath bug reported on the beta forum in the same way as it may be that the intention is for wrath to go sub 1.0 seconds which could significantly improve our overall crit/haste scaling when using eclipse.
An additional thought: Adoriele if you put in a feature with your mod that showed the exact time to each moonfire tick and showed an alert every time it ticks would there be the potential for a mid-duration update of moonfire immediately after a tick in order to marginally increase DPS? The idea would be that in the middle of Starfire spam you could get a refresh in order to reset the 9 second counter and hopefully ensure that moonfire lasts the duration of your wrath eclipse proc. Don't bother implementing it if it would be a difficult feature, but if you did I'd be willing to test it manually and see if I could get any results that don't clip ticks too much. Certainly that would require extremely good latency to even be remotely feasible...but it'd also be a way to use our excess mana if so.
I have to admit when I first heard about the SF glyph change I also assumed it was just to prevent building up duration to obscene numbers, not to enforce mandatory refreshing of MF. I'll ask in the beta forums about it, but if this is an attempt to lower our DPS a bit, it does its job (half a SF cast per 24s is about 350 DPS. I'll double check on the servers tomorrow (my connection is crap at home right now) what refreshing MF's duration with MF itself does, whether it resets the counter, etc. And yeah, adding a tick timer to the bars wouldn't be a bad idea. Thinking about implementing it as a half-size bar on top of the duration bar, we'll see.
I have to admit when I first heard about the SF glyph change I also assumed it was just to prevent building up duration to obscene numbers, not to enforce mandatory refreshing of MF. I'll ask in the beta forums about it, but if this is an attempt to lower our DPS a bit, it does its job (half a SF cast per 24s is about 350 DPS. I'll double check on the servers tomorrow (my connection is crap at home right now) what refreshing MF's duration with MF itself does, whether it resets the counter, etc. And yeah, adding a tick timer to the bars wouldn't be a bad idea. Thinking about implementing it as a half-size bar on top of the duration bar, we'll see.
Thank you very much for your work on that. I'm sure it'll prove to be necessary for eclipse managing particularly with a IS/MF refreshing rotation.
One of my thoughts is the SF glyph adjustment paves the way to incorporate some form of DoT crit scaling either through talents or a change in game-wide mechanics. If Starfire infinitely refreshes a crittable or crit-scaling moonfire dot then we would scale too well from crit. That's certainly something that also needs mentioned as a possibility to the developers considering we're now the most dot-reliant caster whose dots do not scale from crit. It certainly isn't against their design as SW:Pain and Corruption still have auto-refresh talents
Last edited by erragal : 10/20/08 at 3:38 PM.
Reason: Format/Clarity.
Would you mind posting the level 80 treant pet stats from the pet tab? (just take a screen shot)
The following command can be used to add the pet tab to your char sheet once the treants are out.
/run if not oldHasPetUI then oldHasPetUI = HasPetUI; HasPetUI = function() return true, false; end end PetTab_Update() ToggleCharacter("PetPaperDollFrame")
I'd like to find out how well the treants scale with strength, attack power, etc....
10/17/08, 6:19 PM
). They did around 26.7k damage per cast, or nearly 150dps if you spread it over the 3mins cd.
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