Moonkin WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion - Page 54

Erdluf · 10/20/08, 3:38 PM

Clipping MF for Eclipse purposes sounds marginal, at best.

I'm looking at WrathCalcs that show an MF tick at over 800. You lose that much damage, plus additional damage by interrupting your filler more often.

On that same sheet, casting an extra Wrath under Eclipse is worth about 600 damage. If you manage to cast an extra SF under eclipse, that is worth a bit more than 1k damage, but I suspect that avoiding a MF cast won't by you an extra SF more than 2/3 of the time.

At very high gear levels (where the MF contribution is less significant) it might start to make sense.

erragal · 10/20/08, 3:46 PM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

Clipping MF for Eclipse purposes sounds marginal, at best.

I'm looking at WrathCalcs that show an MF tick at over 800. You lose that much damage, plus additional damage by interrupting your filler more often.

On that same sheet, casting an extra Wrath under Eclipse is worth about 600 damage. If you manage to cast an extra SF under eclipse, that is worth a bit more than 1k damage, but I suspect that avoiding a MF cast won't by you an extra SF more than 2/3 of the time.

At very high gear levels (where the MF contribution is less significant) it might start to make sense.

The whole concept is to time it so you don't clip a full tick, that you would clip at most 1/3 or if your latency is ideal 1/6 of a tick. That's why you'd need a tick timer to monitor it properly, though that's under the assumption the tick resets to 0 when you refresh. Obviously it's not meant to be a huge increase, but marginal increases are still worth investigating I would think. It would also eliminate situations where you're beginning your starfire cast with .3 seconds on moonfire and you lose that moonfire time. As long as moonfire is our highest DPCT spell then we still gain damage avoiding letting it fall off as long as its timed flawlessly. Clearly marginal, but worth investigating!

◊ Lorewanderer · 10/20/08, 5:38 PM

I can't help but think that the expiring Moonfire is at least partially there to prevent rolling massive super-trinket / proc/ destro pot moonfires for the duration of a fight. It may not be quite as much fun, but they clearly don't like the mechanic--they said as much for lifebloom and I don't expect they'd have a change of heart for a damage spell.

• Adoriele · 10/20/08, 5:49 PM

Originally Posted by Lorewanderer

I can't help but think that the expiring Moonfire is at least partially there to prevent rolling massive super-trinket / proc/ destro pot moonfires for the duration of a fight. It may not be quite as much fun, but they clearly don't like the mechanic--they said as much for lifebloom and I don't expect they'd have a change of heart for a damage spell.

They fixed it for lifebloom. If they had to, I'm sure they could fix it for Moonfire and IS as well.

Starfox · 10/20/08, 8:06 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Would you mind posting the level 80 treant pet stats from the pet tab? (just take a screen shot)

The following command can be used to add the pet tab to your char sheet once the treants are out.

/run if not oldHasPetUI then oldHasPetUI = HasPetUI; HasPetUI = function() return true, false; end end PetTab_Update() ToggleCharacter("PetPaperDollFrame")

I'd like to find out how well the treants scale with strength, attack power, etc....

Thanks!

Awesome, thx!

First of all, they get 30% of you Int and Sta.

I did ~6 casts specce: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...03013305111231
Wrote down spellpower/AP. Got to ~0.55-0.57 AP per Spellpower. Then i noticed that Treants do NOT scale with spellpower from talents, LG/iMA. I hope this is a bug and not a feature

Respecced away from LG and iMA and got it then:

SP	AP	BonusAP	SP/BAP	SP*57%
1656	1585	943	0,5694	943,92
2168	1877	1235	0,5696	1235,76
2758	2214	1572	0,5700	1572,06
661	1018	376	0,5688	376,77

Anyway here are the lvl80 values
BaseAP: 642
BaseDPS: 398.8
BonusAP: Spellpower_on_items * 57%

What's weird is that treants seem to get out of sync on target dummies, and i got different attack speed tooltips, 2.0, 1.8, 1.6, so no clue about the attackspeed for them. It can't be that all 3 attack with 2.0, as i got tests with up to 59 hits per cast.

Originally Posted by Lorewanderer

I can't help but think that the expiring Moonfire is at least partially there to prevent rolling massive super-trinket / proc/ destro pot moonfires for the duration of a fight. It may not be quite as much fun, but they clearly don't like the mechanic--they said as much for lifebloom and I don't expect they'd have a change of heart for a damage spell.

The ticks get readjusted every time you hit with starfire.

erragal · 10/20/08, 9:38 PM

Originally Posted by Starfox

The ticks get readjusted every time you hit with starfire.

That is not true at all, at least not on live currently. Not only can you roll spell power buffs but owlkin frenzy will also roll with your moonfire. It's plausible they changed that AND capped the duration which would make no sense if they wanted us to have to refresh moonfire.

If they were really worried about spell power rolling they'd have it refresh the spell like the corruption/SW:Pain talents do instead of adding duration.

EDIT: Just tested on live and starfire does not change the tick amount.

Starfox · 10/21/08, 8:34 AM

Well, you are right. On beta it's the same.
Why did they change that

Erdluf · 10/21/08, 9:21 AM

Using dedmon's pet bar, I see that treant's armor scales also. When I'm in caster, my treants have 7k armor. When I'm in Moonkin, they have 11k. I didn't try shifting after casting FoN, so I'm not sure what happens then.

Obviously this doesn't matter for a boss fight. It is nice to know for small-scale PvE.

Ailetha · 10/21/08, 10:52 AM

I wonder if there is any plan for them to remove GCD in combat on idols for us to use during Eclipse switches.

Or they should design idols that include both Wrath + Starfire and/or an Eclipse idol.

Moginheden · 10/21/08, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Ailetha

I wonder if there is any plan for them to remove GCD in combat on idols for us to use during Eclipse switches.

Or they should design idols that include both Wrath + Starfire and/or an Eclipse idol.

I use the crit idol from the epic flight line. Now that moonkin aura is raid wide I figure it's way better than the other ones.

bunnie · 10/21/08, 12:24 PM

With the changes to the starfire glyph would Idol of the Unseen Moon work out to be better than Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess if we have to recast moonfire?. I was also wondering where Idol of the Raven Goddess fits in here. I like the raven goddess for raids but I have yet to run with a elemental shaman and I'm wondering how that works with elemental oath and totem of wrath. Which buff overwrites which? And if elemental oath normally overwrites moonkin aura, would it not with the idol equipped because of the extra 20 crit rating?

Ailetha · 10/21/08, 12:50 PM

Ya, I'm using that aura idol as well but sometimes I'm in a 10 man with only myself and maybe another DPS as casters; it would be nice to have the personal DPS option.

Ah, as I understand it; Elemental Oath isn't a permanent buff so Moonkin Aura overwrites that. In addition, Moonkin Aura definitely overwrites Elemental Oath if your moonkin is wearing the aura idol.

• Adoriele · 10/21/08, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by bunnie

With the changes to the starfire glyph would Idol of the Unseen Moon work out to be better than Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess if we have to recast moonfire?. I was also wondering where Idol of the Raven Goddess fits in here. I like the raven goddess for raids but I have yet to run with a elemental shaman and I'm wondering how that works with elemental oath and totem of wrath. Which buff overwrites which? And if elemental oath normally overwrites moonkin aura, would it not with the idol equipped because of the extra 20 crit rating?

Fair certain that if you've got the Raven idol, Moonkin Aura will count as a better buff than Elemental Oath and prevent it from being overwritten. Also, since it's literally crit rating, it should benefit melee as well, though that would need to be tested. The only downside is that 20 crit rating is going to be a lot less valuable at 80. It's about 1% crit right now, which is pretty damn powerful raid-wide, but less than half a percent at 80. Hopefully there will be an upgrade to it, but if not I'd guess that there will be idols that grant better personal DPS than the raid benefit of half a percent crit.

Munorion · 10/21/08, 1:03 PM

It would be a design flaw anyway if our best relic at level 80 were a level 70 blue. Not that that's without precedent, but I think Blizzard learned a lot about proper itemization since then.

Kaug · 10/21/08, 5:33 PM

Short of adding a new MK aura trinket or nerfing the current trinket somehow, I'm not sure how they could make a better 25 man raid trinket. Think about it, in 25s you have ~15 casters (healers+dps casters) most of whom can benefit from crit. Not to mention Protadins and melee classes that have some spells. So its 15x20crit rating totaling 300 crit rating across the raid, give or take depending on actual raid makeup.

On a related note, trinket nerfing, wth happened to the swift flight form trinket ;(

Woodlum · 10/21/08, 5:39 PM

What some of you are missing is that E&M has been expanded to include holy damage now, it is now a better buff then CoE, well just as good but it fits into our spell rotation naturally and lets a Warlock go with a DPS curse. I have been getting my E&M's overwritten by CoE in raids because it doesn't add to amplify holy (3.0.2).

I think the 2% cut to E&M is to keep it in line with a 3 TP, 1%/TP model and an increase was granted to Eclipse to get some attention over there to recoup the numbers lost.

More importantly I am trying to find some current information on the internal cooldown on Idol of the Moon and some info on proc rate... I think this number is 85% and a 30sec IntCD, and it was played around with quite a bit by the developers some patches ago. These numbers might help determine when the best time to refresh MF is between your SF casts.

Also saw several posts back that someone was popping trinkets on there SF casts. I thought it was better to do that pre-MF so that you get more mileage out of the DoT. Correct me if wrong.

• Adoriele · 10/21/08, 5:42 PM

Originally Posted by Kaug

Short of adding a new MK aura trinket or nerfing the current trinket somehow, I'm not sure how they could make a better 25 man raid trinket. Think about it, in 25s you have ~15 casters (healers+dps casters) most of whom can benefit from crit. Not to mention Protadins and melee classes that have some spells. So its 15x20crit rating totaling 300 crit rating across the raid, give or take depending on actual raid makeup.

On a related note, trinket nerfing, wth happened to the swift flight form trinket ;(

It's crit rating, so even rogues would get some benefit from it. That said, it's only 20 itemization points per player, or about half the benefit of any given profession's perk. It's not a whole lot, though you're right that in order to come close to topping it we'd have to have an idol that gave us ~500 personal itemization points, and that would be damn hard to come by. I wouldn't be surprised to see Blizz do something like make the idol only affect group members even though our aura affects the raid.

Starfox · 10/21/08, 5:44 PM

Originally Posted by bunnie

would it not with the idol equipped because of the extra 20 crit rating?

For moonkin, it is 20 spell crit rating only, tested it.
And yes, [Idol of the Raven Goddess] is a raidwide 20 mele/spellcrit rating, depending on specc.
No clue what it does for trees
This idol will probably get a nerf like [Solarian's Sapphire] did

Kuruk · 10/21/08, 9:21 PM

We're finally getting the talent trim with Moonfury and Earth and Moon becoming three point talents in 3.0.2

So I am deliberating how to best spend those points for maximum PVE raiding benefit.

My base build is: 51/0/5.

There are five points left to spend and I'm trying to trade off the following abilities against each other:

- Brambles
- Eclipse (more than one point)
- Owlkin Frenzy

With bosses dying as fast as they do, you usually only use Force of Nature once per fight so 15% damage increase on that one cast won't be that much.
Owlkin Frenzy can increase DPS on fights where AOE abilities/auras cause damage. That's most boss fights I guess and I think I will max it.
Eclipse - with the duration increased and the effect doubled, the question here: Is it more beneficial now to invest more than one point in it?

Any comments/maths on the above welcome.

Edit: Another option is 49/0/12 to take Master Shapeshifter for a flat 4% damage increase but would mean losing Nature's Splendor and Starfall.
That might be a better option, however it would be a shame to use the AOE viability (plus Starfall seems to add considerable DPS on bosses too).

Raso · 10/22/08, 2:25 AM

Originally Posted by Kuruk

We're finally getting the talent trim with Moonfury and Earth and Moon becoming three point talents in 3.0.2

So I am deliberating how to best spend those points for maximum PVE raiding benefit.

My base build is: 51/0/5.

There are five points left to spend and I'm trying to trade off the following abilities against each other:

- Brambles
- Eclipse (more than one point)
- Owlkin Frenzy

With bosses dying as fast as they do, you usually only use Force of Nature once per fight so 15% damage increase on that one cast won't be that much.
Owlkin Frenzy can increase DPS on fights where AOE abilities/auras cause damage. That's most boss fights I guess and I think I will max it.
Eclipse - with the duration increased and the effect doubled, the question here: Is it more beneficial now to invest more than one point in it?

Any comments/maths on the above welcome.

Edit: Another option is 49/0/12 to take Master Shapeshifter for a flat 4% damage increase but would mean losing Nature's Splendor and Starfall.
That might be a better option, however it would be a shame to use the AOE viability (plus Starfall seems to add considerable DPS on bosses too).

IMO it really comes down to 3/3 eclipse (which with sunwell gear and bribing a mage leads to relatively consistent uptime and the buff to the talent) vs 4% spell damage anything else deals with pvp talents imo.

I am no math wiz but consistent eclipse procs is a lot more fun then 1/3.

Angelfire · 10/22/08, 4:06 AM

Guys, has anyone seen the change to the Starfire Glyph on Beta?
According to the PTR patch notes the change is not there?

Öwlcapwn · 10/22/08, 4:18 AM

I personally think Eclipse is not worth it atm; get your SF and MF glyphs and hit the boss with MF then spam SF til the boss dies. I wear 4/5 T5 4/8 T6 1273 SD, 19.33 crit (24.33 in kin form) 217 haste rating (13.76 and if I understand Imp moonkin form and the new buff to celestial focus I think it is 19.76 haste in moonkin form) 128 hit.

I pull over 3000DPS and upwards of 3400DPS on fights like Brutallus.

My question does not pertain to Level 80 I'm just wondering the consensus on gear is, The Leather SWP gear has Spirit on it which is a lot more lucrative now that we get a spirit to spell damage raid buff with IMP moonkin. and I know haste is important but now we have 6% static haste just from talents, I was considering relying on crit as a main stat to pick up SWP pieces.

So come WOTLK my gear should last me til NAXX so should i stick with 4/5T5 4/8T6 or should I pick up the max Spirit gear or the max crit gear?

What I think the ideal set up for me with everything from SWP would be
Dark Conjuror's Collar - Item - World of Warcraft
Amulet of Unfettered Magics - Item - World of Warcraft
Amice of the Convoker - Item - World of Warcraft
Tattered Cape of Antonidas - Item - World of Warcraft
Robes of Ghostly Hatred - Item - World of Warcraft
Thunderheart Bands - Item - World of Warcraft
Thunderheart Handguards - Item - World of Warcraft
Thunderheart Cord - Item - World of Warcraft
Leggings of Calamity - Item - World of Warcraft
Thunderheart Footwraps - Item - World of Warcraft
Ring of Omnipotence - Item - World of Warcraft
Loop of Forged Power - Item - World of Warcraft
The Skull of Gul'dan - Item - World of Warcraft
Shifting Naaru Sliver - Item - World of Warcraft
Grand Magister's Staff of Torrents - Item - World of Warcraft
Ivory Idol of the Moongoddess - Item - World of Warcraft

Again I'm trying to rely in equip: increases crit and gem for more spell damage / haste.

Some items that are listed better on MAXDPS.com but I think these items are better, Boosting crit as much as possible in order to garuantee the best Eclipse set up for when I hit 80. So let me know what you think like is 4/5T5 and 4/8T6 better than this set up?

Grimnork · 10/22/08, 6:19 AM

Isn't the MH/OH combo from brutallis better because of the haste and the fact that everyone with this kind of gear is hitcapped, even without talents?

Also I think the flightform Idol is better for raid performace, and it should outweight the personal benefits from the Moongodess Idol easily.

Kaug · 10/22/08, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Öwlcapwn

Some items that are listed better on MAXDPS.com but I think these items are better, Boosting crit as much as possible in order to guarantee the best Eclipse set up for when I hit 80. So let me know what you think like is 4/5T5 and 4/8T6 better than this set up?

MAXDPS??? Over simplistic IMO. It doesn't model fights, rotations, mana, procs, raid buffs, set bonuses etc etc. Long story short don't use it

Use RAWR IMO. While still not perfect as it is still being updated for 3.0, I think it is probably the best tool out there. It even has it's own EJ forum

Note: if using for any class/spec other than moonkin, check the readme. Some models are mostly done, like moonkin, others haven't been touched for 3.0.2 yet.

Öwlcapwn · 10/22/08, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Grimnork

Isn't the MH/OH combo from brutallis better because of the haste and the fact that everyone with this kind of gear is hitcapped, even without talents?

Also I think the flightform Idol is better for raid performace, and it should outweight the personal benefits from the Moongodess Idol easily.

The Sunflare is much better than the Reign of Misery, I'm still a firm believer at the moment that if you can loose a fwe points of haste to gain lots of crit you should do so. Plus the sunblade has more spell damage as well.

and as far as the idol you recieve from the flight form quest, I would think the starfire glyph would equate to more damage than 1% crit over an entire raid. yea blah blah blah thats 25% more if you add everyone that's not how it works, it gives each individual an extra 1% which is not as huge an increase as using the SF trinket for yourself.