Well I felt that the gigantic eclipse of a moon over a sun was a pretty obvious indicator, so I'm unsure of what mod you might need, if any.
But I did have a question about these eclipse cycles, since yesterday I respecced, dropping Dreamstate, fully investing in Lunar Guidance. I didn't pick up Typhoon, put one point in Eclipse, and I am still picking up Improved Insect Swarm and Improved Faerie Fire.
My question is this: When you proc an Eclipse, is it better DPS to put up the Insect Swarm? I know people were mentioning cycles of MF, SFxN, IS, Wrath and reset, and I'm not exactly sure how to go about calculating the math on that one.
Originally Posted by Caniki
Hey guys, I heard that Blizzard puts out these things called "patches" that contain "content"
Well I felt that the gigantic eclipse of a moon over a sun was a pretty obvious indicator, so I'm unsure of what mod you might need, if any.
It's a nice and obvious indicator for when it procs, but there's no indicator for when it wears off. I use Power Auras (Power Auras Classic : WoWInterface Downloads : Buff/Debuff/Spell Mods) to keep track of Eclipse, as well as provide reminders for FF, IS and MF on my current target.
Most, if not all, of the Eclipse math in this thread has ignored set bonuses and idols. Since t5 and t6 bonuses, and our idols all tend to favor SF and MF, the math is probably a bit skewed.
I'd say points in Eclipse right now are optional, since there are plenty of useful and interesting talents available.
If you want to try Eclipse, I'd suggest (this is my gut feeling. I don't know that anyone has run the numbers)
- go to a target dummy.
- use MF + IS(optional) + Wrath until the fifth MF falls off. Record your DPS and reset your damage meter.
- use MF + SF for one minute, and record your DPS.
Compare the two DPS numbers.
If Wrath DPS > SF DPS then use 1/3 Eclipse. Use Wrath rotation in raids (if you have the mana for it), and switch to SF when Eclipse procs.
Wrath DPS > 95% of SF DPS: 1/3 Eclipse. Use SF rotation in raids. Switch to Wrath when Eclipse procs. Alternatively, if you have a timer that tells you when the cooldown is up, you could start alternating SF and Wrath at that point, until Eclipse procs, then spam whichever spell takes advantage of the proc.
Wrath DPS < 95% of SF DPS: 3/3 Eclipse and a cooldown timer. Use an SF rotation. When Eclipse is off cooldown, spam Wrath until you get an Eclipse proc.
Renewing DoTs regardless of the current Eclipse situation is almost always the right thing to do (and when it isn't optimal, the penalty tends to be small).
Of course you can just test different Eclipse rotations on the dummy. Just remember that raid buffs and procs (haste and crit) tend to scale a little bit better with SF than with Wrath.
Has anyone had a chance to test IFF? I have yet to see anything conclusive regarding whether the crit benefit is only from an FF cast by you, or whether it will grant 3% crit on any target afflicted by any druid's FF. The wording suggests this is so, of course, but I haven't been able to find confirmation one way or the other, nor whether this is supposed to be the intended effect. I apologize if this has already been covered in this thread; I read it avidly but it's perfectly possible I missed this somewhere.
Has anyone had a chance to test IFF? I have yet to see anything conclusive regarding whether the crit benefit is only from an FF cast by you, or whether it will grant 3% crit on any target afflicted by any druid's FF. The wording suggests this is so, of course, but I haven't been able to find confirmation one way or the other, nor whether this is supposed to be the intended effect. I apologize if this has already been covered in this thread; I read it avidly but it's perfectly possible I missed this somewhere.
There's no confirmation yet either way, and short of a Blue telling us straight up it's going to be a while. We /might/ be able to guess at it before LK hits, or figure it out if someone does some very heavy (read:hours of cast time) testing with a pocket feral or resto to keep FF up. Due to its nature, though, it's we'd need ~10000 casts of both cases (talented with someone else putting FF up, talented with no FF up at all) before we'd be able to make a decent case either way.
There's no confirmation yet either way, and short of a Blue telling us straight up it's going to be a while. We /might/ be able to guess at it before LK hits, or figure it out if someone does some very heavy (read:hours of cast time) testing with a pocket feral or resto to keep FF up. Due to its nature, though, it's we'd need ~10000 casts of both cases (talented with someone else putting FF up, talented with no FF up at all) before we'd be able to make a decent case either way.
Well I'm not good at the math, but I can post WWS logs here if someone wants to parse them. I have 3/3 iFF and I usually don't cast it as we have 2 ferals in the raid and a shadow priest that I'm presuming are covering it.
Wow Web Stats I did use iFF here as our shadow priest didn't show up, (although I'm not used to using it so my uptime probably sucked.)
Does this help?
Originally Posted by Erdluf
My non-crit hurricane is ticking for about 700 per second. 25000/700 is about 35 or 36 mobs before you notice the cap on non-crits. Maybe somebody can go to ZF and round up 40 or 50 of those beetles (scarabs?) for a test.
At 80, with 3000 spellpower, gale winds, 3% E&M, 10% Frenzy and 4% MSS, your non-crit ticks should be between close to 1300. That still allows almost 20 mobs before you really notice the cap.
If crits are also limited, individually, by the cap, you'd start to see reduced crits with only 2/3 as many mobs.
My understanding is that the cap doesn't scale with anything, other than blizzard deciding what it should be.
I thought the cap was per spell not per tick. If I'm right that would drastically reduce the number of mobs before getting capped. I know in instances I see reduced per mob ticks on the larger pulls and I don't think they are as much as 20 mobs, but I never counted.
How many ticks does hurricane have per cast? Or am I wrong and it's per tick not per cast?
Well I'm not good at the math, but I can post WWS logs here if someone wants to parse them. I have 3/3 iFF and I usually don't cast it as we have 2 ferals in the raid and a shadow priest that I'm presuming are covering it.
Wow Web Stats I did use iFF here as our shadow priest didn't show up, (although I'm not used to using it so my uptime probably sucked.)
Does this help?
It's just not enough data. I'd offered to do it on the PTR a few weeks ago but no one messaged me that could show up, and it's difficult to randomly get people to test this. I may be able to badger a few people on live to help me. The absolute best way is to have four druids sitting in one of the arenas. One with no FF, one with Feral FF on, one additional balance with IFF applied and then the caster with IFF talent using hurricane...for a very long time. The problem is they all have to be very disciplined to ensure faerie fire doesn't fall off while you do this for 137 minutes just to get 10,000 data points (That's with my 8.2 second hurricane channel time and assuming all the druids innervates will keep your mana up).
I know some individuals have speculated that the wording of the talent implies a specific behavior, but the reality is that there are too many possibilities for us to make assumptions. The only thing I'd be willing to assume is that it definitively works if the caster has IFF and is the one applying the faerie fire debuff.
It's just not enough data. I'd offered to do it on the PTR a few weeks ago but no one messaged me that could show up, and it's difficult to randomly get people to test this. I may be able to badger a few people on live to help me. The absolute best way is to have four druids sitting in one of the arenas. One with no FF, one with Feral FF on, one additional balance with IFF applied and then the caster with IFF talent using hurricane...for a very long time. The problem is they all have to be very disciplined to ensure faerie fire doesn't fall off while you do this for 137 minutes just to get 10,000 data points (That's with my 8.2 second hurricane channel time and assuming all the druids innervates will keep your mana up).
I know some individuals have speculated that the wording of the talent implies a specific behavior, but the reality is that there are too many possibilities for us to make assumptions. The only thing I'd be willing to assume is that it definitively works if the caster has IFF and is the one applying the faerie fire debuff.
Would casting vs a target with resilience help? theoretically you should be able to setup a target who is immune to crits at your normal crit level but would be vulnerable if iFF works. Then we could test it with a much smaller data set, (first crit = pass, 1000 casts with no crit = fail?)
If the casting druid is nude and not in moonkin how much resilience/defense would be needed to set this up?
Well I'm not good at the math, but I can post WWS logs here if someone wants to parse them. I have 3/3 iFF and I usually don't cast it as we have 2 ferals in the raid and a shadow priest that I'm presuming are covering it.
Wow Web Stats I did use iFF here as our shadow priest didn't show up, (although I'm not used to using it so my uptime probably sucked.)
Does this help?
Again, the two cases we need to test between have nothing to do with whether you cast FF. I think we're all in agreement that your own FF will grant the benefit of iFF, both personal and raid-wide. The question is only whether someone else's FF will trigger the personal benefit from iFF. WWS, in that regard, are only marginally helpful without extensive parsing that WWS itself cannot do. To be perfectly precise, you'd need to read through the entire combat log (as it can't be downloaded), noting the times that someone else's FF is up, and finding the crit rate of all spells only during the time it's up. You also need to account for any crit debuffs on the mob, or buffs on yourself. This is painstaking. The only real benefit is that it's incidental, you don't have to go out and specifically gather data, which is a very small benefit at best. The only real way to test this is as I mentioned above:
Grab a friendly druid who does not have iFF (no use testing this if there's cross-contamination, i.e. it's very possible that another druid's iFF triggers the crit, but another druid's plain FF/FF(F) does not).
Spec for 3/3 iFF. No sense making the distinction between the cases smaller than it can be.
DO NOT change gear. If you start testing in Moonkin, stay in Moonkin. Same with if you start testing outside of Moonkin. Try to keep everything constant except the application of FF. Remove any crit proc gear you may have.
You'll probably want to use only one spell to test. SF will have a different crit rate from MF will have a different crit rate from Wrath. Wrath might be the best spell to test with, it's quicker than SF and cheaper than MF.
Test your crit rate on a target dummy without any FF on it. You'll need ~10000 casts.
Test your crit rate on a target dummy with FF on it. You'll need ~10000 casts.
Test your crit rate on a target dummy with FF(F) on it. You'll need ~10000 casts.
If you're feeling really nice, have your friendly druid spec for 3/3 iFF as well, then re-test FF and FF(F). Again, ~10000 casts each.
For control, test with your own FF, and possibly FF(F).
As you can see, good testing means ~70k casts. Even using Wrath, that's almost 30 hours of casting. We might be able to live with only 1k casts per test, but that leaves us a lot more exposed to the RNG, and is still ~3 hours of casting. Hence why it's still undecided.
Last question, what is the mod of choice other Moonkin are currently using to monitor Eclipse procs? SCT was my first thought to try.
I am using SatrinaBuffFrame; configured a bar group with 4 bars just above my casting bar (Blessing of Remulos, Blessing of the Silver Crescent, Eclipse and Owlkin Frenzy), so as soon as Eclipse comes up I spam Wrath. I also find it 's about 100 extra DPS for me, using Eclipse 1 point (tested on dummy).
Well I felt that the gigantic eclipse of a moon over a sun was a pretty obvious indicator, so I'm unsure of what mod you might need, if any.
But I did have a question about these eclipse cycles, since yesterday I respecced, dropping Dreamstate, fully investing in Lunar Guidance. I didn't pick up Typhoon, put one point in Eclipse, and I am still picking up Improved Insect Swarm and Improved Faerie Fire.
My question is this: When you proc an Eclipse, is it better DPS to put up the Insect Swarm? I know people were mentioning cycles of MF, SFxN, IS, Wrath and reset, and I'm not exactly sure how to go about calculating the math on that one.
Good sir, it is my preference to play with the camera zoomed out to full (even enhanced with improved camera) and to focus more on the things outside the direct center of the screen thus I relish mods like SCT to throw something across. I feel this has even been advantageous for my situational awareness and provides more uptime.
IIS is supposed to be a 3% increase to Wrath damage. With a short cast time on Wrath, I believe this could be useful in squeezing out more from the numbers considering I seem to be getting a minimum of at least 10 Wraths off during a proc. IS would only cost a GCD and might be affective to this end as a damage increase.
I don't commonly use IS unless I am moving and thus haven't spec'd for IIS during this weeks testing but definitely think this is worth consideration, especially at 80. I know Eclipse is not getting a whole lot of love here yet but it seems like it is GC's intent to get this talent off the ground.
I should have a stretch of time to do some test cases this weekend and like the one posted by Erd, unfortuanately I don't think I can get a full raid buffing to assist in stumbling through some realistic data but will be checking some of these things out.
I thought the cap was per spell not per tick. If I'm right that would drastically reduce the number of mobs before getting capped. I know in instances I see reduced per mob ticks on the larger pulls and I don't think they are as much as 20 mobs, but I never counted.
How many ticks does hurricane have per cast? Or am I wrong and it's per tick not per cast?
Until we have testing, I'd assume we are the same. I'd prefer to see test resuts, though.
A single WWS showing Hurricane damage/tick increasing as mobs starts to die off would seem to do the trick.
Also, the resilience trick for testing IFF crit sounds like a good one. 180 hits at 3% crit chance have only a 0.5% chance of being all non-crits. With Hurricane you can get 1 hit, per target, per second. If you have several friends, that is several hits per second (and if two of them are druids, they can keep FF up on the group).
I know that you are usually quite proficient with numbers, but this is pure speculation.
You should conduct a test of X casts, then see if the conclusion can be accepted within a 99% confidence interval.
I don't have the numbers on hand and I don't bother browsing through old statistics books to calculate it, but someone here should be able to whip up those numbers.
Pure convecture on my part would land the number of casts around 1000 for a pretty accurate answer to that question.
Isn't it possible to test it yourself:
Shift to cat/bear cast FFF then shift out and nuke. Rinse and repeat.
I know that you are usually quite proficient with numbers, but this is pure speculation.
You should conduct a test of X casts, then see if the conclusion can be accepted within a 99% confidence interval.
I don't have the numbers on hand and I don't bother browsing through old statistics books to calculate it, but someone here should be able to whip up those numbers.
Pure convecture on my part would land the number of casts around 1000 for a pretty accurate answer to that question.
Isn't it possible to test it yourself:
Shift to cat/bear cast FFF then shift out and nuke. Rinse and repeat.
The 70,000 casts sounds reasonable to me presuming a high crit rate to be discounted. I was hoping the incidental casts made over hours of raiding from a WWS log would work, but I can see how it would be sub-optimal. If we can reduce the crit rate to 0 without iFF and 3% with iFF a much lower range should be posible, (apparently 180 hits according to Erdluf)
Does anyone know if there is an eclipse mod that monitors the actual internal CD of eclipse? Or, how could i set up a custom ICD monitor in Dotimer for such a thing?
I just need a mod that starts/restarts a 30s bar every time eclipse procs. I was thinking this was possible in Dotimer but when i set up the notification for eclipse, they don't actually pop up for me, so I think either I'm doing it wrong or the mod isn't capable of it.
i've resorted to using the built in stopwatch but I am and probably never will be perfect at timing it with a stopwatch so a mod that shows a bar would be great.
I know that you are usually quite proficient with numbers, but this is pure speculation.
You should conduct a test of X casts, then see if the conclusion can be accepted within a 99% confidence interval.
I don't have the numbers on hand and I don't bother browsing through old statistics books to calculate it, but someone here should be able to whip up those numbers.
Pure convecture on my part would land the number of casts around 1000 for a pretty accurate answer to that question.
Isn't it possible to test it yourself:
Shift to cat/bear cast FFF then shift out and nuke. Rinse and repeat.
Yeah, I'll admit that my background in statistics isn't all that great. I'll grab my textbook sometime in the next few days and see what I can find for a more reasonable estimate.
Originally Posted by Ailetha
Does anyone know if there is an eclipse mod that monitors the actual internal CD of eclipse? Or, how could i set up a custom ICD monitor in Dotimer for such a thing?
I just need a mod that starts/restarts a 30s bar every time eclipse procs. I was thinking this was possible in Dotimer but when i set up the notification for eclipse, they don't actually pop up for me, so I think either I'm doing it wrong or the mod isn't capable of it.
i've resorted to using the built in stopwatch but I am and probably never will be perfect at timing it with a stopwatch so a mod that shows a bar would be great.
Well, I was hoping to be able to test my addon tonight, but Eclipse crashed and ate it >.< I might get it done before the week's out.
[edit] managed to get all my work re-written, and should be able to hopefully test basic functionality tonight. I still need to make the options menus work, and it's all dry-coded, so don't expect anything real soon.
Hi, I'm thinking of switching my main to my Boomkin for Wrath, so I've been trolling this thread. :-)
My gut tells me that the iFF crit thing is to make up for having to cast it every 40 seconds, making it apply only to your own. But the wording definitely sounds like it could apply to any. *shrug*
Question about Eclipse: Instead of interrupting your SF spam to cast Wrath on the Eclipse proc, would it be better to spam Wrath when you know the 30s cooldown on Eclipse is up until it procs, then spam SF for 30 seconds, then switch again? (Since Wrath has a lower chance to proc it, 3/3 Eclipse might be more useful here to reduce time spent Wrath spamming.)
My concern is that all your Wrath crits cause the next cast to clip the global cooldown via Nature's Grace. The 20% extra damage might make up for it, but it seems like SF comes out way ahead, benefiting both from NG and 30% more crit, which in fact only produces more benefit from NG.
On that note, are there any mods out there that can prominently display not only the Eclipse proc and duration, but also the cooldown? (Does that Power Auras Classic I've seen mentioned do so?)
I think the best way to test this without requiring tens of thousands of casts would be to duel (or collaborate with the opposite faction to fight) someone with a good set of resilience gear that can switch their resilience to be just over your chance to crit while naked and in a temporary balance spec with no crit benefits. Then have a third person who is a druid (opposite faction if dueling, same faction if fighting opposite faction) casting Faerie fire on the person you are attacking - if you can crit (should take around 30-50 casts but I'd recommend going to 100 or 200 to be sure if it doesn't crit) then it works with any faerie fire.
Certainly will get conclusive answers a lot faster than 70,000 casts.
The testing isn't fully conclusive but does point to you getting the crit from all types of faerie fire.
If this is indeed the case, then the talent is pretty clearly superior to improved insect swarm. Improved insect swarm just seems like an overall weak talent. I suppose not every talent needs to be a massive damage increase but I don't see myself picking it up unless I really don't need any of the mana talents.
Hmm... Eclipse still confuses me a bit, and reading about it in this thread hasn't answered my question.
Given that eclipse will soon be "10 second duration, +20% wrath damage, +30% starfire crit, 40 second cooldown", should our rotation when eclipse is off cooldown be alternating wrath and starfires so that we are casting the appropiate spell if we happen to proc something? I've been practicing this, and it is very difficult at my level of latency, but I've been managing to pull it off most of the time.
If it's unclear what I mean...
Cast wrath
Cast starfire
Start casting wrath
See that starfire crit
Continue spamming wraths
This should give you the benefit of the full duration, and it looks like it will be a VERY powerful increase for a short time?
Hmm... Eclipse still confuses me a bit, and reading about it in this thread hasn't answered my question.
Given that eclipse will soon be "10 second duration, +20% wrath damage, +30% starfire crit, 40 second cooldown", should our rotation when eclipse is off cooldown be alternating wrath and starfires so that we are casting the appropiate spell if we happen to proc something? I've been practicing this, and it is very difficult at my level of latency, but I've been managing to pull it off most of the time.
If it's unclear what I mean...
Cast wrath
Cast starfire
Start casting wrath
See that starfire crit
Continue spamming wraths
This should give you the benefit of the full duration, and it looks like it will be a VERY powerful increase for a short time?
You havent gotten the latest:
Rank 1: When you critically hit with Starfire, you have a 33% chance of increasing damage done by Wrath by 20%. When you critically hit with Wrath, you have a 19.8% chance of increasing your critical strike chance with Starfire by 30%. Effect lasts 15 sec and has a 30 sec cooldown.
Rank 2: When you critically hit with Starfire, you have a 66% chance of increasing damage done by Wrath by 20%. When you critically hit with Wrath, you have a 39.6% chance of increasing your critical strike chance with Starfire by 30%. Effect lasts 15 sec and has a 30 sec cooldown.
Rank 3: When you critically hit with Starfire, you have a 100% chance of increasing damage done by Wrath by 20%. When you critically hit with Wrath, you have a 60% chance of increasing your critical strike chance with Starfire by 30%. Effect lasts 15 sec and has a 30 sec cooldown.
Hi,
With the new spellpower system, some mistakes can be made when choosing stuff (for noobies like me).
My question is about a sunwell piece, the T6.5 leather chest for druids.
Hi,
With the new spellpower system, some mistakes can be made when choosing stuff (for noobies like me).
My question is about a sunwell piece, the T6.5 leather chest for druids.
They are identical apart from their manaregen stats. One has mp5, which does close to nothing for any spellcasting dps, the other has spirit which can help in both regen (intensity) and now also gives spellpower through improved moonkin aura.
They are identical apart from their manaregen stats. One has mp5, which does close to nothing for any spellcasting dps, the other has spirit which can help in both regen (intensity) and now also gives spellpower through improved moonkin aura.
Erm, you can't claim mp5 does nothing for casters while, at the same time, claiming spirit helps with regen. 13 mp5 is around what 33 spirit would give you while casting if you had Intensity.
It really depends on whether you've taken Intensity or not, which at level 70 you probably haven't. 33 spirit would be what, 4 spellpower or so? Versus a good amount of mp5... I'd take the mp5 for sure if I didn't have Intensity.
10/23/08, 6:07 AM
Similar Threads
