skeldi

real question is, is 2T6 or 4T6 worth using compared to naxx gear due to set bonuses?

 

Ardanell

I did a search within the board and looked at this post initial thread but dit not find an answer to my question conerning your earth and fire talent.

My guild is looking forward to rely on Moonkin earth and fire debuff rather than on the warlock curse of element for the expansion.

When I read the talent description, I see that the concerned spells have a chance to increase spell damage for 12 seconds.

What is therefore the earth & fire proc rate ? Is the debuff staying constantly on the raid target or is it going away from time to time ?

Sorry for the bad english. This is not my native language. Thank you in advance for your response.

 

Korben

Earth and Moon (not earth and fire) is applied whenever you hit a target with wrath or starfire and lasts 12 seconds on the target. It has a 100% chance, so as long as you hit that same target within 12 seconds, the debuff will stay up on the target.

 

Munorion

It's a 100% chance to apply the debuff - the tooltip even says so. So you need to cast a Wrath or Starfire once every 12s to keep it up, which should be a given in every boss fight.

Edit:
Beaten to the point.

 

◊ Lord BEEF

It's called earth and moon, and it lands 100% of the time. Between this and ebon plague, it's very unlikely that warlocks will ever have to cast curse of elements.

 

• Adoriele

There's actually no "chance to apply" anymore, that was an idea they scrapped very early in beta. Now, each talent point only increases the effectiveness of E&M. As such, the way it functions is that, for 12 seconds after every Starfire or Wrath hit on the target, the target takes x% increased spell damage (13% being fully-talented, and on-par with all fully-talented similar effects). The debuff will fall off if your moonkin stops casting Wrath or Starfire for more than 12 seconds, which shouldn't happen if he's at all competent and it's fight that doesn't rely too heavily on movement. If it's a fight like, say, Supremus, though, either he'll have to be very good at stopping, casting a wrath, and then getting back to moving again, or you'll have to rely on a Lock to put up CoE during the movement phases. Otherwise it's much more efficient for the Moonkin to provide the debuff, as it costs him nothing, but costs the Lock a curse slot.

[edit] WOW.

 

Ardanell

Thanks a lot for all those responses. I was relying on the talent tooltip of the official talent builder which was not a good idea ...

 

thedopefishlives

The new Rawr numbers are in for the Starfire glyph. Assuming I did all the math correctly, which I'm only mostly sure of, it works out to be a ~1.5% dps increase for a MF/WxN or MF/IS/WxN rotation. Surprisingly, the delta between MF/SF and IS/MF/W _increased_ by adding the Starfire glyph; MF/SFxN only increased by ~1% by adding the glyph. It looks like there's going to be a lot of Wrath-spamming critchickens in Northrend.

 

lissanna

The best rotation DPS that murmurs worked out on the live forum (without Eclipse) for the next patch is: moonfire/starfire x 3 /wrath until moonfire falls off. The moonfire plus three starfires gets the max out of your starfire glyph, and then wrath by it's self is going to be higher DPS than continuing to cast starfire after the first three starfires.

After three starfires, you don't get any more benefit from the glyph, but your DPS should increase by making the most of the glyph. However, once you get Eclipse in the DPS rotation mix, it gets a lot more complicated.

 

• Adoriele

This tends to match what I'm getting from my sheet for DPETs. The only way Starfire's a better option than Wrath is if it gets benefit from Eclipse. The benefit to moonfire from the extra 3 ticks is much larger than the loss caused by casting starfire instead of wrath in order to get them, though.

Having looked at his numbers, though, he doesn't seem to give enough credit to Insect Swarm. Base damage was buffed enough that even without the glyph it's still got a higher DPET than Wrath.

 

lissanna

I think the debate over whether or not to use insect swarm comes down to the added complications for an Eclipse build (having to manage too many timers) above whether or not it adds to the overall damage done or utility you bring. However, the timer addon you made may actually make insect swarm worth casting. However, the best DPS "rotations" to use also seem somewhat conditional on gear (levels of crit, haste, etc).

 

thedopefishlives

My own math shows the rotation MF/SFx3/IS/WxN is the highest DPS rotation. The difference between that and MF/SFx3/WxN is so close, though, that the IS glyph can in some cases make the difference between which one is higher DPS. Realistically speaking, it looks like the use of IS is going to come down to personal preference and/or the presence of another -hit debuff in the raid.

 

Tublade

Does the cycle MF/SFx3/WxN mean that you cast WxN will the Moonfire dot is finished, and then start over with MF/SFx3/WxN?

Also, I am having Wraths with 0.8 sec casting time when NG procs. That seems such a big waste; I could instead be having SF's with 1.9 casting time or so. Is it always better to cast Wraths instead of SF's, no matter your haste? For example, when I slam a haste pot, or Bloodlust is up, I would not spam Wrath but always SF's... but that's because < 1 sec Wraths feel like a waste... any truth in that feeling?

 

Feralkin

I must say that i also stick to this casting technique, if there is a large haste buff up then i use SF because it gains slightly more from haste than wrath does, especially when you consider the Nature's grace proc's.
Although i have not done the math on this since 3.0 came out so don't quote me on it, but i would believe that with Starfire being buffed at base dmg, this would be even more true now.

 

tr33hugger

Is the GCD still limited to 1sec with Nature's Grace when spamming wrath, regardless of haste? I don't have my exact numbers but i think with ~70 haste and haste talents (+ totem of wrath) my NGed wrath is way under 1s cast time. I started playing again last week after 1 year off and may be wrong. My feeling tells me that spamming wrath may be theoretically more dps, but is a waste once you have a considerable amount of haste... right ?

 

Druidark

When im using wrath my quartz cast bar is mostly halve filled or even 3/4th filled with the red section, but when im spamming starfire i only get like 0,2 average red section. Wrath when under several haste buffs is just no fun to spam, with an increased risk of casting your next spell to early or to late because the cast bar is that short when NG proc is up.

Reapplying glyphed moonfire just feels wrong, but i guess we have no choice here and have to take this dps loss. No need for calculations to tell us glyphed moonfire is still better then then normal moonfires, especially with glyphed starfire still making the dot longer, just not endless longer

Imo they should just make wrath a 0,5 sec longer cast (remove wrath from the Starlight Wrath talent), buff it very midly(maybe in the same talent). And it will feel more comfortable/fun to be casting.

But that's just my 2cents about how i don't like wrath much.

 

khel

I don't see how any of these dps rotations that plan for Moonfire to fall off and need to be refreshed can be optimal. Surely it's better just to switch back to SF before MF drops to extend the duration, then resume wrath spamming. Even with Eclipse procced from a Starfire crit, I would expect a dps gain using SF to extend the MF duration, rather than throwing away another GCD on refreshing MF.

 

Ulthwithian

khel: I think you missed the change to the Glyph of Starfire. Right now, you are correct. However, Blizzard has changed that glyph so that, instead of being able to affect the Moonfire DoT ad infinitum, the Glyph can only affect the Moonfire DoT a maximum of three (3) times, for a total of 9s.

As such, we must reapply Moonfire at some point in the rotation. It seems that, fully buffed, the duration is 27s.

Druidark: I agree with you about Wrath. I have very little haste (my druid just hit 70), and I already dislike Wrath because of its short cast time. If you increase its cast time (base), it will lose dps, but gain both dpm and scaling.

 

Miim

The last pages here has really got me thinking.. I have been struggling with talent calcs alot lately there are just so many talents I want, I for some reason my mind was stuck that I had to have tons of points in Restoration, going for intensity. But from what I read here, mana isn't that big of a problem at level 80 either.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
66/0/5

Am I correct to assume that this build:

- is NOT a single target dps decrease compared to a "standard" 56/0/15~ish build
- Has more solo/5man utility and simple fun-ness than the 56/0/15 (subjective ofc)
- Full AOE capability
- With 2/3 moonglow and 3/3 dreamstate the mana should be good enough to support us.

I know that isolated intensity is better.. It just doesnt feel worth all the points/stuff I am giving up.

Im still unsure from all I have read lately if IS is worth going for (is it only viable glyphed and with 2 set t7 bonus?) . I do however feel its worth 1 point even if its not in the standard rotation, because its always nice with a dot for those movement heavy fights.

 

thedopefishlives

I haven't tested with large amounts of haste yet, so I honestly couldn't tell you. I'm suspecting, however, that even if Wrath is clipped at the GCD, it is still going to be higher dps for a while than Starfire. And to answer your question, yes, MF/SFx3/WxN means cast Moonfire, cast Starfire 3 times to extend the dot, then spam Wrath until the dot falls off.

 

Druidark

Atm we are end tbc, clueless boomkins are running around in 400+ haste from themselves only, you have to add raidwide haste buffs to that still. Wrath just becomes fail here compared to Starfire.... (for myselve I deceided that 1600spellpower is better then haste stacked gear with lower spellpower)

And like mensioned before a lot of boomkins just go the emo way like myselve and say fuck wrath, even at low haste levels from gear.

Atm solotarget dps (also using treants) with 1x moonfire + Nx starfire before glyph nerf I could reach between 3.6-4k solotarget dps on a shorter fight like teron or brutallus. Longer fights with more interupts present I drop between 2.6-3k dps. On fights with movement phases I drop between 2-2.2k dps. On AE events i get an average 5k dps.
No matter how many times i tried to do alternative 'highest dps' cycles with Wrath usage, i can't reach the numbers im reaching with starfire. I felt the same way for long, wrath is my pyro. Maybe latency is a factor here, but only for a part.

The glyph nerf will force me to take the nature's splendor talent, where I didn't need it before the nerf.
I think many druids will go back to try unglyphed moonfire. Reapplying it more frequently but with a chance to crit for 1.5-2k dam when reapplying. Some would then try to replace starfire glyph, but there is no alternative Starfire glyph. Both moonfire glyphed and not moonfire glyphed druids just end up dissapointed, its a dps loss either way.


Now Wotlk will change a lot for every class ofc.
We should be replacing our gear by better gear after some time, in this case T6 and swp gear.
At some point we will loose the 3sec longer moonfire dot & the 5% extra crit for starfire, from T6 set bonus.

To be replaced by...

Im a bad Sherlock, can anyone post new set bonusses available?


We'll have to wait and see how it goes, I don't look forward to spamming wrath cos my armor set bonus tells me too.
I would vote that many of you would go post on the official forums about the glyph and wrath situation. It just doesn't feel right.

 

Latas

I had a question about owlkin frenzy. Does anyone know if the attack has to be targetted directly at you to proc it or if damage like say, felmyst's aura has a chance to proc it. If the latter, in certain situations it would seem to be a lot more valuable (i.e. sapphiron). Also is there any sort of ICD on its effect?

 

Erdluf

Miim,

I think that any max-single-target build at 80 will have Master Shapeshifter (and MSS should also boost AoE)

I agree with your solo/5-man/fun comment. If you really wanted to concentrate on small-group PvE, I'd go IMotW (+14 all stats for the party) and Nature's Focus (better heal/DPS/CC under pressure) over Furor.


Edit: Druidark, don't stop using the MF glyph unless:

a) You have 100% moonfire crit AND almost no spellpower.

or

b) Your typicall moonfire ticks less than four times.


Unless at least one of those is true, the MF glyph boosts your MF damage.

(a) I'm not aware of this ever being true in game.
(b) May be true for many PvP situations. It should be extremely rare in PvE.

 

Munorion

Owlkin frenzy definitely procs from AoE damage.

 

Druidark

The tooltip from owlkin frenzy is quite clear, any attacks done against you have a chance to proc it. The source of damage or the spell used doesn't matter. For me its a must have, a chance to get 10% extra damage and no spell interruption delays. In pve there will offcourse be a boss fight where there is virtally no AE damage present and the 3 talentpoints could be redirected. Like there will also be a boss fight where the ppm is mad and uptime will be insane, since the proc refreshes the buff timer each time. Most bossfights will be somewhere between that where you just get 2 or more procs in a fight maximum. And offcourse the longer the fight the better for ppm's. In pvp its to good to not have.