In 2.4, you could lose 25/50/75% from a partial resist on a mob 1-3 levels above you.
Since 3.0, it's 10/20/30% for mobs 1-3 levels above you. (It gets higher vs. red and skull mobs).

You still lose 2% damage per level on average.
So, since a partial is now a much smaller damage loss, you see them much more often to compensate.


It's all level based partial resists what I've seen so far, nothing that CoE/SpellPen gear would help with.

[Edit]: They changed Sapphiron to not be frost immune anymore to allow Death Knight tanking.
He has some resistance to compensate and still give him a frosty theme.

Kel'thuzad has no resistances, not has any other boss.
Feel free to check in a Naxx clear here: Wow Web Stats

Alright, it's been a while, but here's the newest version of WrathCalcs. Everything that was previously implemented should be again EXCEPT talent benefit calculations. In the interests of getting the meaty stuff out, I haven't made a pass to see if these are all correct yet. Also, I haven't removed the option to use Weapon Oils at level 80. Sue me.

As a reminder, here's what's working:
All rotations listed as long as you're not specced for Eclipse.
Spam rotations, even if you're specced for Eclipse.
Mana calculations for all the above rotations.

Fixes: OoC, JoW, SF glyph.

Added: DPET calculations, MF IS SFx3 WxN rotation.

Are Moonfury and Earth & Moon supposed to only be allowed 3 talent points in the spreadsheet? They each go up to 5 in game, to my understanding.

Spreadsheet reflects changes made on Beta which will go live for 3.0.3.

Gotcha! I assume the spreadsheets that predate the 3.0.3 changes will still work properly for the current patch, then. Also, I've been googling around a bit but haven't been able to find a set date for 3.0.3. Is there anything more solid than "some time before WotLK"? Granted, not that we have much time left...

No, but if I were a betting Moonkin I'd put money on tomorrow. Beta's been relatively quiet, and the prospect of forcing everyone to patch on the 11th, then re-patch on the 13th after installing Wrath is probably as unpalatable to them as it is to us.

Ahh I see, thanks a lot greatly appreciated

I've been looking at the spreadsheet provided by Adorielle, but I can't seem to find out, what numbers are working and which are broken in the spreadsheet at the moment. 3.0.3 will be out soon, and I'll be switching from "easy" Starfire spam and keeping dots up to using Eclipse in my rotation.

I am guessing that with the improvements to Eclipse, 3/3 will be necessary, but do correct me if I'm wrong. I am also always keeping up Moonfire and Insect Swarm (Refreshing in eclipse - Yes/No?).

Would it be best to spam Starfire, switching to Wrath when Eclipse procs and then back to Starfire or the other way around (Spamming Wrath, switching to Starfire at Eclipse and then back to Wrath)? - I've also seen the SFx3 WxN rotation being mentioned a couple of places.

And if Wrath is the "filler" spell (meaning we spam Starfire during Eclipse) I am guessing that will change the value of haste for moonkins?

If noone has come up with anything when I wake up tommorow, I'll start experimenting with Simcraft to try and get some answers, but I'm really hoping someone smarter than myself has been doing some thinking on this subject already. If it's already covered in this thread I am terribly sorry, but I have been following it intensely for quite a while now.

Spell Rotation:

From what I have read the "new" rotation will still contain MF and SF glyph and is basically.

MF -> SFx3 -> Wrath x N (until MF falls of) and repeat. IS is out cold.

As to the specific math and reasoning behind this, feel free to enlighten me, I am working on it myself. I think its a 3 SF to max MF and that will most likely proc 1 Eclipse and wrath trough eclipse. And this also times the CD on eclipse etc..

My biggest question is what is the optimal way to solve this if eclipse is off.. basically SF X N until Eclipse procs? And will wrath spam x N > MF if eclipse is running?

Giving something like..


SF x n (minimum 3 for MF, and maximum to Eclipse procs) then Wrath x n (either to eclipse runs out or MF falls of) (unsure what is best time to stop wrath)

Hope this made some sort of sence :/

Moonkin form mana regen removed for AE spells.

So after spamming hurricane on trashpacks you won't end with 100% mana, but pretty much oom. I have to agree they had to do something about it, but allways blizzard is drastic. I would have prefered the way they chanced OoC with AE spells, give it a (very) small chance to proc instead of no chance at all.

No this is not out of QQ about the 'oomkin', but with this change Starfall lost most of its appeal to me in pve. Sure you can still use it while running in on a bossfight (after using mf, is, typhoon and possibly treants) where aggro is not an issue on the pull, to get some extra damage off while running (starfall on 1 target averagely gives me about 5k dam from full duration, unglyphed ofc). And on AE fights using it before hurricane. But mainly I was using Starfall to get some mana back in all kinds of situation. Specced 3/3 moonglow, 0dreamstate, 0 in resto tree, which is fine in raids.

In pvp starfall is still great ofc, aoe stunns, ok damage,.. . But best of all is the ability to detect (+dam, +stun) all stealth around you, in a very large radius, quite unique in pvp atm.


So what is your opinion, would you keep starfall in your talentspec for pve?
Ignore AE heavy fights, cos it still has a long cd anyway...

I've heard that Starfall is acting as a Singletarget"aoe" so this spell will still give back mana if it crits. I have not been able to see for myself if its true though. But if anyone have hard evidence that shows im wrong i will take back what i've said.

From what I've read, Hurricane procs OoC frequently enough that, in a fight where you spam it, you'll only pay the first one, subsequent ones will be free.
This might not be true anymore, though, as there's a mention of the OoC proc rate from Hurricane being lowered in the patch notes.

Yes it would be the initial stars and not the splash damage they do that would give mana back.

Hmm that acutally makes sense yes, a punishment for using hurricane on 2-3 mobs, free spell when used on 4,5 or more mobs, where it should have a better chance to proc.

From MMOC:

Listed under bugfixes.

I've been wondering the exact same thing. having a static rotation while having to rely on a proccable effect won't be effective, since even with 50%+ raidbuffed crit it will happen that you won't get a starfire to crit if you're casting 3. actually since moonfire lasts 27 seconds with nature's splendor, 2xt6 and glyph of starfire and eclipse having a 30 second hidden cooldown makes only the second and third starfire able to proc Eclipse.

I don't have excell on this computer so I can't check out certain spreadsheets, but just from crude calculations wrath does seem to output more damage than starfire after the nerf to glyph of starfire. though I would like to read up on this more, since I'm not much of a numbercruncher and I'm still curious about things like scaling and mana efficiency for starfire vs wrath. also outside of a raidsetting where you won't always have all the buffs and debuffs. though it won't matter much there since it doesn't matter much in heroics and so if your damage isnt 100% optimal but still. starfire does have a 3% crit benefit over wrath, since afaik using unglyphed IS pre 2xt7 isn't worth casting. glyphing it would also mean you won't get the -3% hit debuff, which hunters will not be providing, because of the steadyshot glyph, which makes them have to use serpent sting. and afaik Eclipse utilizing is a significant dps increase.

so a rotation like: MF - SFxN (min 3, max to proc eclipse), WrathxN (till moonfire falls off) like Miim said seems to make a lot more sense to me opposed to the static MF - SFx3 - WxN till moonfire falls. and where, if at all, does IS fit in? most logically I'd say IS - MF - SFxN (min 3/max Eclipse), WrathxN and refresh IS? adding (i)FF to that would make things a little more complicated because of the 40 sec duration. having a feral/resto druid cast it would make it easier but still there's the speccing.

with all the damage talents and OoC/Master Shapeshifter it seems so hard to get that magic spec working. intensity, lunar guidance, owlkin frenzy, iFF, brambles.. things like dreamstate, typhoon, starfall and gale winds don't bother me much, but those others are just hard to value since they have different strengths. as it is now at 70 I've never had any manaproblems in raids with 61 points balance, without dreamstate, will that change at lvl 80?

anyhow, these are just things on my mind, I apologize if things are explained already, I might have either missed it or misunderstood it, or for stating things someone already stated (captain obvious \o>)

The issue with Intensity is that you need to take the 5 points over Furor in order to get to it and OoC. I've been fiddling around with talent builds all day (in between doing work), and eventually settled on this.

Points to note:

- I feel that the 5 points up to OoC/Intensity probably aren't worth it (this is assuming that regen is a small issue, not a major one) - I'd take Imp MotW and Natures Focus for the 5 up to them. I don't feel that Natures Focus is worth it over Owlkin Frenzy (considering the enhanced damage benefit of Frenzy) and Imp MotW will, for the most part, be redundant due to Resto druids taking it.

- The spec takes all the major damage enhancing talents, and picks up both 3/3 Moonglow and 3/3 Dreamstate for regen. It's possible that regen won't be an issue, in which case I'll be picking up Brambles and the last point of Frenzy.

- I don't see a spec without Starfall, Typhoon and Gale Winds being generally useable. The 4 points you spend gives a major boost to AoE. I'm just waiting for a possible glyph to remove knockback on Typhoon (source) so I can use it on trash without people getting annoyed, but it's still a good spell for movement, when not mana limited.

On the topic of using Wrath is raids - I really don't see how people are finding that it's more DPS. With even a small amount of haste (there's 11% from talents/raid buffs alone), there's too much "clipping" of the duration on Wrath to make it better than Starfire. The only time I will admit that it may be worth it is when Eclipse procs (or to cause an Eclipse proc, which is what I will be using it for almost certainly) - even then, under heavy haste (bloodlust + raid buffs + sunwell gear) Wrath comes down to ~0.6 seconds with Grace for me, which means a ridiculous amount of lost time (compared to chaining starfire at 1.7 sec without grace, 1.5 seconds with). Sitting at a training dummy doing spam of Wrath (500 casts) compared to spam of Starfire (250 casts) came out at approximately equal DPS over the periods. This is without any additional haste (WoA). lower crit than in raids (no FF (3%) or mage buffs(10%/3%)) or Bloodlust, which would swing things even further in favour Starfire. Is there something major that will be happening to Wrath in WotLK that will suddenly make it do a lot more damage?

On eclipse procs: If regen is an issue, using Wrath to proc the Starfire buff is certainly worth it, due to mana back on crits. Even without this, the gains of Grace procs combined with increased damage (crits) surely outweighs the damage increase on Wrath. There will be lower uptime though, because of the 60% proc on Wrath crits compared to 100% proc on Starfire crits, which needs to come into it aswell, but I don't see how proccing the Wrath effect could be better than proccing the Starfire effect.

The recent patch notes claim that Eclipse bonus has doubled, it still lasts 15sec, but the cooldown is 40sec.

Could someone please confirm this? It seems like a "mix" of two versions of Ecclipse the Blizz devs have talked about:

V1: standard buff, 15sec duration, 30sec cd
V2: double buff, 10sec duraction, 40sec cd

V2 is up half the time as V1, but provides double the benefit

Will the real Eclipse please stand up?

question, have you even thought about Master Shapeshifter? You dont mention it anywhere and i would like to know why.

The latest Talent calculator tooltip says:

Rank 1:
When you critically hit with Starfire, you have a 33% chance of increasing damage done by Wrath by 20%. When you critically hit with Wrath, you have a 19.8% chance of increasing your critical strike chance with Starfire by 30%. Effect lasts 15 sec and has a 30 sec cooldown.

Rank 2:
When you critically hit with Starfire, you have a 66% chance of increasing damage done by Wrath by 20%. When you critically hit with Wrath, you have a 39.6% chance of increasing your critical strike chance with Starfire by 30%. Effect lasts 15 sec and has a 30 sec cooldown.

Rank 3:
When you critically hit with Starfire, you have a 100% chance of increasing damage done by Wrath by 20%. When you critically hit with Wrath, you have a 60% chance of increasing your critical strike chance with Starfire by 30%. Effect lasts 15 sec and has a 30 sec cooldown.

And in the official patch note it says:
Eclipse: Buff duration extended to 15 sec and bonuses doubled. The cooldown has been increased to 40 seconds.

TBH i think Blizz just did a typo on the patch note. I trust more in the tooltip.

Ofc if anyone know for sure let us know

I don't feel that there are the points available to allow getting Master Shapeshifter while still picking up everything else that I want to get. It's effectively 7 points for 2 points of effect (or, at best, 5 points for 2 points of effect). If you're going for OoC/Intensity, then it's a possibility (although it means having to take Natural Shapeshifter over Natures Focus), but I don't think going that route is worth it unless regen is a very serious issue - with Moonglow / Dreamstate / Moonkin Form and the potential of using the Innervate glyph, along with JoW and Replenishment, I don't see it as a likely issue.

Let me boil it down for you: Unless your Wrath casts are sitting at 1.0 seconds WITHOUT Grace, Wrath is simply more powerful than Starfire. Wrath has _always_ been a higher DPS spell than Starfire, it's just that in TBC there were more multipliers on Arcane damage than on Nature damage. In addition, TBC Starfire outscaled TBC Wrath by a mile. The spell has been quite a bit buffed in 3.0, in addition to the equalizing of spell power multipliers across all schools of magic. Now, when I say "more powerful", I'm not talking in the hundreds of DPS. Most models show Wrath and Starfire within 50 DPS of each other even in max buffs. However, it is simply not true that Starfire is just plain better than Wrath anymore.

If "just plain better" means comparing average Wrath hits against average Starfire hits, then I agree with you.

But there are other issues beyond the NG+Haste that everybody mentions......

Glyph of Starfire and fewer latency-points in your cast sequence are powerful effects.