Rannasha

The expected number of crits in his sample with FF (305 casts) is 11 if iFF doesn't benefit from FFF and 19 if it does. The expected standard deviation for the scenario where iFF does benefit from FFF is 18. The sample measures 27 crits. Nothing can be said with any reasonable level of certainty. To improve, the sample size has to go up (dramatically) or the base crit chance has to go down, ideally by using a target with resillience.

 

Angelfire

Right, I've been watching this thread for a long time, and there's tons of information/opinions here, which are a bot confusing.
I strongly support Lord Beef in asking that someone from EJ consolidates the useful data into one new post, and update this post if needed. All comments can remain here and so things will be neat and ordered.
anyhow, don't want to interfere with the way you guys are running things, those forums are so wonderful that even blue posters use and quote them, just a small request.
And to business:
Can you please rate the mana related talents, in terms of which ones are worth investing points in?
They are:
1. Moonglow
2. Dreamstate
3. Omen Of Clarity
4. Intensity

I'm thinking of this build and I'm mainly not sure if the points I placed in Moonglow are worth it, or should I have put them more in Brambles and Dreamstate? I plan on taking the route of Natural and Master Shapeshifter towards 80, and take OoC and Intensity, at which point I'll respec to loose Dreamstate and most of Moonglow I guess, but what do you think would be good now?
I've taken iMotW because we do not always have a resto in raid, and like mentioned below, thinking of action out side of a raid setting at the moment.

P.S.
I know mana should not be an issue in a normal 25 man setting, but I'm currently thinking more of the leveling/5 mans/10 mans setting, where mana return from Shammies/S Priests/Pallies is not guaranteed.
I've not taken Balance of Power as I do not expect to need it anytime soon, not raiding until 80. I'll see what's the hit rating status on gear at 80, and decide whether or not to take it then.

 

dukes

Warning: below calcs are entirely approximate, I could be way off here.

Moonglow
Base mana, going from Wowwiki, is 2370 at 70 and 3796 at 80.


At 70: Going with cast times of 2.5 seconds average for Starfire, and 1.1 seconds average for Wrath and a GCD of 1.4 seconds, then using a 24 second cycle involving 1 Moonfire (12+3(talent)+9(glyph) seconds), 3 Starfires, 2 Insect Swarms and 11 Wraths, we can approximate a saving of (102+45+253) = 400 mana over 24 seconds, or ~83 mana/5, giving ~28 mana/5 per point.
Leveling: Cast times are likely to make up a small amount of total leveling time due to running between quests/looting/etc, so the value is greatly diminished. Taking even half of the above "rotation" value, the talent is worth ~15mana/5 per point (although this will scale with level).
At 80: Going with cast times of 2.5 seconds average for Starfire, and 1.1 seconds average for Wrath and a GCD of 1.4 seconds, then using a 24 second cycle involving 1 Moonfire (12+3(talent)+9(glyph) seconds), 3 Starfires, 2 Insect Swarms and 11 Wraths, we can approximate a saving of (165+71+418) = 650 mana over 24 seconds, or ~135 mana/5, giving 45 mana/5 per point.

Dreamstate
Leveling: My current Int unbuffed is around 550 , so Dreamstate is ~17mana/5 per point.
At 80: Dreamstate will likely be around 120-130 mana/5 at 80 with entry-raid gear with raid buffs, which gives approximately the same value as Moonglow.

Omen of Clarity
Leveling: OoC will be of variable value, but will gain a lot of value if you're AoE grinding / AoEing down instances. Certainly worth more than the other regen talents per point, even if you only get 1PPM out of it.
At 80: If OoC procs 4 times per minute (a figure which could be wrong, but I've seen that quoted a few times as a "target" value), and you save 600 mana per cast (averaging out Starfire, Moonfire and Wrath casts) then it's worth around 200mana/5, for one point.

Intensity
Leveling: I have approx 350 mana/5 Oo5SR currently, which would give a value of ~30mana/5 per point.
At 80: Taking values of 1000 int and 1000 spirit (returning approximately 881 mana/5), Intensity is worth approximately 88 mana/5 per point in this case, or ~270 mana/5.



Moonglow has the advantage that it applies to more spells than just Starfire/Wrath/Moonfire, but only works while casting.
Dreamstate has the advantage that it always works.
OoC has the disadvantage that you need to be casting to be able to proc it. One advantage is that chain procs can mean gained Oo5SR ticks, and it works on AoE spells which can save a lot more mana than the estimated amount above.
Intensity only works while not OO5SR which is more useful while raiding than while questing, but is stronger than Dreamstate/Moonglow.

It depends on what you're doing as to what comes out better out of Intensity/Dreamstate. In a leveling build I'd rank them as below, although Intensity/Dreamstate are likely to be of similar value depending on just how much time you spend casting and what gear you currently have/pick up while leveling.

1. OoC
2. Intensity
3. Dreamstate
4. Moonglow


[Edit: If anyone could check the above and make sure I'm not way off on this, it would be appreciated. I'm pretty sure the order of benefit from talents is right though, based on previous comments in this thread.]

In terms of a leveling build, I'm probably going to use this although I'm not dead set on it yet. I don't see the point of DoT enhancing talents for leveling, and I'm going for all the regen I can get because I hate downtime. At 71 I'll be grabbing the next point of Intensity unless I find regen isn't an issue. Owlkin Frenzy + Brambles is so good while doing dailies that I can't imagine leveling without it, unless it's pure instance grinding.

On the topic of a Useful Info post, I believe Lorewanderer will be updating the TTT post http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t21687-druid_balance/ although I don't know when.

 

sadistic

I'm leaning towards this as the base of my raiding specc: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Depending on how encounters pan out and how hit-gear ends up you can toss around some points from eclipse/frenzy to BoP/dreamstate or even IiS if the current rotations hold true and Mf is always up.

 

Kamisutra

Sorry if it is a newbish question, but what spec would you guys suggest for questing and doing considerable dps in the WotLK level up 5 mans upon WotLK release?

 

Moonkin Kai

Just tried out a rotation or two on 3.0.3 using this spec:-

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...03213005101030

I saw a slight dps increase using MF, SFx3, WrathxN (N=amount of possible casts until MF ticks off) when Eclipse proc'd during one of the three SF, however, when it didn't proc I was recieveing a higher dps using this spec:-

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...03213005001030

and a MF, SFxN (N=amount of possible casts until MF ticks off) rotation.

My question is would it be more beneficial for a point to be dropped in Nature's Splendor and added to Eclipse to make Eclipse 2/3 in the first spec to increase the chances to get the Wrath bonus damage? I used the Moonfire and Starfire glyph on both rotations.

 

Sqz

can you share that rotation? I'm a bit of a lost child as well, though I think I might have found a flashlight when using the IS MF SFx3 WxN till Moonfire falls while refreshing IS rotation you just adapt if you don't get a starfire to proc eclipse. that's how I'm seeying it anyways. so if your starfires don't proc eclipse, your wrath will and then you simply just change to starfire spam for the remainer of Eclipse, since eclipse'd starfire > non-eclipsed wrath. I think it's even debatable which is better; eclipsed starfire or eclipsed wrath

so basically the rotation seems to be the best without regarding eclipse and eclipse simply adds some adaptive procwatching playstyle to it

so basically it'll be; first a wrath to proc E&M at the start of the fight and then: IS > MF > Starfirex3 > WxN till moonfire falls keeping IS up - while keeping an eye out for Eclipse, so you'd either get those starfires to proc it and if not you switch to starfire when a wrath procs it, then possibly back to wrath when eclipse runs out and there's still time left on your moonfire.

this seems to be an interesting rotation, since wrath has a 60% chance to proc eclipse on a crit, the chance increases as you fight longer that your 3 starfires won't proc it, since moonfire lasts 24 seconds with just splendor and the glyph, but the starfires keep coming into the eclipse-proc-window once in a while, though I think you'll mostly use eclipsed Starfires. which I do like, since crits bring mana back and substract -0.5 sec from the next cast, starfire has a better mana efficiency and doesn't 'waste' any grace /clip any gcd effects.

please correct me if I'm wrong

 

Sqz

oh and I'm considering this as my 80 raiding spec:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

some points are debatable, depending on the gear I'll have and whether mana will be more of an issue or not. as for lvling, it doesn't rly matter. the instances are piss-easy and thats kinda thesame for lvling. I don't mind drinking on the rare occasion to get some mana back and @ 70 farming with a 61 point balancespec without dreamstate I can keep killing mobs without barely any downtime, just an innervate every 6 min.

 

Latas

I think what we are looking at is (IS if you feel like), MF, SF till eclipse procs, wrath spam, then when the proc is over starfire spam again refreshing IS only when the eclipse cooldown is over (still not sure the 3% is worth it). Overall I'm finding that since its crit for starfire it makes it less valuable as you can still not crit on the proc and it wastes a portion of it while every single wrath you cast on the wrath proc gets the damage bonus. Its more about staying away from stacking RNG based bonuses as they can possibly not fall in your favor.

 

Eilt

I did not have a chance to log in long last night, but preliminary reports gave me the following thoughts:

My first rotation tried was a MF, SFx3 (or eclipse proc), IS after proc then wrtah spam till eclipse ends. Refresh MF when needed and Starfire while waiting for eclipse CD.
I used this rotation to try and maximize wrtah spam DPS, by the time my computer recognized I had crit and procd eclipse I would already have a SF queued up so I would jump to cancel it and throw up IS to try to minimize down time. It worked well, but was clunky at best.

The next rotation was just ignoring eclips and using MF, SF till MF needed refreshing, very easy rotation, not the best DPS though.

THe third rotation was MF, SF tille clipse proce (usually 2-3 casts) finish casting the SF that was in progress once eclipse procd, then wrtah spam till eclipse ended and refresh MF when needed.

The third rotation seemed to be the most DPS although it was VERY spikey depending on my crits and such. I could see anywhere from 2k-2.4k DPS in any one test (one test was only about 2minutes)

I also tried a wrathspam style till eclipse procd then throwing out MF/SFs until it ended, but I was burnign through mana casting wrath so much in a solo unbuffed setting.

So with the little bit of work I got to do I think the MF, SF till eclipse, wrath spam cycle worked best for me. Very interested in seeing others results.

Note: I took a 100% chance to proc eclipse to make sure it procd within 3 casts of SF, although getting unlucky with my crits I can see why there was a difference of ~100 DPS almsot every time I tried the third rotation.

 

tigriss

I have been reading this thread with interest for a while.My moonkin is somewhere at 1160 spell power 110 haste, 148 hit and 23% crit. my main is a feral druid but i am doing some BT/SWP raids with this alt of mine atm.The general ideea before the 3.0.3 patch was that moonkin DPS was much more boosted compared to other clesses.
With badge gear i was managing 2.2k-2.4k sustained DPS at Bruallus peaking 2.8k .
IMO the biggest nerf in 3.0.3 patch is that to the glyph of moonfire...followed by the chance to eclipse.

I have been toying with the targets in IF all day today and i have made some considerations.
It seems to me that in order to optimise ELCIPSE, it must be made to proc only for STARFIRE.
What i mean is start with IS/wrath*n until eclipse procs then go on with MF/SF refreshing MF when needed.
ECLIPSE has a 40 sec cooldown now even though the tooltip says still 30 sec.
Without 2*T6 bonus and wearing glyph of moonfire, your moonfire will last 21 sec.
Given you start with moonfire right after ECLIPSE procs from your wrath, you can alllow yourself almost 2 full MF rotations casting SF before your ECLIPSE will proc again.
What im saying is , the bonus that eclipse gives to SF is much greater than the one for wrath IMO, so its advisable to "predict" eclipse proc and make it so that it procs on wrath to buff SF.


so my rotation would be:
FF
wrath*n until eclipse proc
MF,SF*7,MF, SF*6 FF
wrath*n

rinse and repeat

Just my 2 cents

 

torand

I am going to do a bunch of testing when I get home tonight, but here is what I was thinking for my rotation (With 3 point Eclipse, and nothing in Imp IS).

That is just what I am thinking, I also want to test weather or not it is advantageous to re-apply MF while SF Eclipse is up. I don't think it is, and I think more SF is probably the better choice, but I am not sure. This rotation is pretty much the same as the typical MF->SF till Eclipse rotation, except if Eclipse doesn't proc in 3, I spam Wrath to try and get what I think is the more valuable eclipse proc.

 

Erdluf

Adoriele,

WrathCalcs under-values CSD. From the Wrath Calcs, computing Wrath crit damage:
D4*(1+(0.5+IF(Chaotic,0.03,0))*(1+0.2*Vengeance))
means CSD+Vengeance crit does 206%. Correct number is 209%

(1+.5)*if(chaotic,1.03,1)*(1+.02*vengeance)

The multiplicitave CSD behavior is easy to see on Hurricane logs.

19:34'13.328 Erdluf Hurricane hits Bogstrok #1 for 1100 Nature. (Critical)
19:34'13.328 Erdluf Hurricane hits Greater Bogstrok #1 for 712 Nature.

712*1.53 = 1089
712*1.545 = 1100

Your SF and MF calculations are similar.

Also, after having trouble tracking Eclipse in an instance today, I downloaded SquawkAndAwe. So far I've only used it on test dummy, but I think I'm going to like it. Thanks for S&A, and your spreadsheet.

Edit: Fixed calc when no CSD.
Edit2: See corrected equation a couple of posts below this one.

 

• Adoriele

Hmm. Your equation doesn't quite work out. It would if .02 was .2, and you subtracted 1 at the end, but then it doesn't work if you don't have Vengeance. I know we're supposed to have 209% crits, just not sure how the math works out for that yet.

 

Erdluf

I typed too fast for my brain to keep up.

Just change the 0.03 in your orignal formula to 0.045 (3% of 1.5), and it works.

D4*(1+(0.5+IF(Chaotic,0.045,0))*(1+0.2*Vengeance))

Edit: You can spell "0.045" as "1.5*0.03" if you prefer.

 

bethor

With the changes to the talents, we now have +6% haste(Celestial focus and imp Moonkin form). With my current gear i have the following in moonkin form:
Bonus Damage; 1272
Hit: 131
Crit Chance: 25.36% (with raven goddess idol)
Haste: 304 (19.28%)
Mana Regen: 268

I know most places would say there is no such thing as too much haste, but would it be worth it to re-gem my gear to either +12 spell dmg or +spell dmg + crit?

I have +55 spell haste from gems alone.

 

Relinor

I spent the last three hours hitting some Dummies to see what rotation looks best - for each test I blew a full mana bar several times over. I was using the SF and MF Glyphs. Nature's Splendor and 2xT6 bonus. 3/3 Eclipse.

Because my gear is 50% T6 Resto gear I have only 23% crit (but 118 Haste) which means it is harder for me to get an Eclipse proccing as reliably as a full time, well geared Moonkin. So my first aim was to negate as much RNG as possible. This means using SF which has a 100% chance to proc. Eclipse to gain 20% damage for Wrath. So all of that is reliable as can be which is good.

This leads you to a MF > SF until Eclipse > Wrath rotation.

I use the term 'rotation' very loosely because more often than not you will eventually find your MF DoT dropping off mid Eclipse buff, where you will be ideally spamming Wrath and gaining the 20% bonus. Not having a DoT up seems like a bad idea and refreshing it and losing an Eclipse buffed Wrath cast seems like a bad idea too - neither can be optimum. You can almost completely stop this dilemma if you cast MF just before the Eclipse internal CD has ended, this way MF is usually ticking all the way through the soon to be active Eclipse. But if you refuse to cast MF until that point you will end up with an earlier gap where you have not refreshed your DoT, at this point I started applying IIS instead of MF, followed by Wrath xN. Four seconds before the Eclipse CD is ready I applied MF and began with SF, essentially restarting the rotation.

Summed up you are MF > SF until Eclipse > Wrath > (using as many more SFs as keep the initial MF ticking if you didn't do 3 SF at the start) > when MF finishes (it is too early to reapply immediately or it will fall off mid-next-Eclipse) apply IIS > Wrath spam to take advantage of the IIS +3% damage bonus > 4s before Eclipse CD is ready apply MF > SF until Eclipse > repeat.

I found that the above could be done consistently, there is no large variation in the rotation and it always keeps one of your DoTs up all the time, without refreshing early or interrupting your Eclipsed buff casting and best of all RNG is not as much of a factor.

Recount also suggested this rotation gave me the most steady dps.

The two main factors in the above rotation are to minimise RNG and to avoid DoTs dropping off at points where you can't refresh them - this was done by using both DoTs separately and overlapping them. My only issue with the above is that you end up using Wrath more than I would like. Its costs a lot more mana and I really don't like how it works poorly with +haste and NG. I get a feeling the sections where I am IIS > Wrath spamming are the low point in the DPS but this was still the only way I could see to keep DoT uptime and Eclipse usage to a maximum.


I've done the above purely by playing around in-game and without any theory or math (aside from glossing up on this forum for a few hours before testing myself). Feel free to point out some glaringly obvious mistake I have made


One final note is that I have been using Adoriele's Squarkandawe mod (which I really hope he keeps developing, its great). I downloaded this pre-patch and it still seems accurate when timing the Eclipse internal CD. I would have thought it would still be monitoring the old 30s CD. Perhaps the 40s CD wasn't actually implemented in the patch...

 

boomchicken

Hello all,

Tonight in our weekly Black Temple clear I got my first chance to use eclipse. At first I tried the IFF, MF, Starfire x 3, Wrath x rotation and found my dps to be under par. After thinking about it I figured it had to be with my t6 bonuses and my haste, so I decided to try a different rotation. Next I tried a IFF, Wrath till proc, then MF, starfire x. That rotation increased my dps but still got me thinking that it was not effective enough. Lastly I decided on a IFF, MF, Wrath till proc, Starfire x rotation, this seemed to give me the best dps based on my gear. The only problem I ran into was sometimes it took longer to get eclipse to proc based on the 60% chance off wrath. I was curious if what people thought about this or if I was totally off base with what I came up for rotations.


Boomchikin

 

zoba

I skip eclipse altogether. Am i a complete retard? My feeling is that I loose control and get distracted by proccs like eclipse.
Here are links to my current build and to my latest felmyst kill.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...03213005011231

Wow Web Stats

Any comment?

 

sulliwan

Wrath vs starfire spam is an interesting issue.
According to a quick spreadsheet I made which mostly agrees with tests I did on target dummy, wrathspam is more dps than starfire spam in case your critrate percentage is more than twice your haste percentage, unless at very low crit/haste values.
Basically, if you have very little haste(under 100-150 rating or so), you should spam wrath and use starfire during eclipse procs, if you have more haste than that, then the other way around.

 

Hjalte

I've read what everyone had to say about Wrath vs Starfire, but there are some things I don't quite understand.

What I did last night, in the end at least, was trying to minimize Wrath casts. Why? Because with Nature's Grace and haste, it will often be below the GCD making it worse than it needs to be.

This means I had a rotation ending up at something like IS -> MF -> WrathxN untill Eclipse --> Starfire while Eclipse --> Starfire + Rebuffing IS and MF untill Eclipse ICD is done --> WrathxN again to proc Eclipse.

This felt quite good and to me seemed like the best spec for the night.

A good thing about this rotation, is that I wouldn't run out of mana as fast as with lots of Wrath spam, because I would be critting a lot with Starfire, hence making me able to just take the 1 point in Moonglow and rest in damage talents.

 

Stejo

Would you mind sharing some numbers that support these findings? Common sense and all past findings indicate that wrath spam can never be productive due to the horrible way it scales with every single stat because of it's really short base casting time. Would be really interesting if that wasn't the case anymore, I find it hard to believe however.

 

sulliwan

It scales worse with crit and haste than starfire, yes, however it actually scales better than starfire with spellpower because spellpower is applied per base casting time and the casting time reductions for wrath are more powerful percentagewise than starfire.

For both wrath and starfire, you get 100% of your spellpower added in 3.5 sec of base casttime before talents, talents reduce both wrath and starfire casttimes by 0.5sec, which is a 25% increase in how fast you can turn your spellpower to dps for wrath, but only 14% increase for starfire.

I will have to doublecheck my numbers on the spreadsheet though, there might be a small error in nature's grace calculations :P

 

sulliwan

Indeed, I had a small error in the formula that calculates casttime lost to gcd during nature's grace procs.
So although it is still possible under certain conditions that wrath spam does more dps than starfire, in any realistic raidbuffed situation starfire is always more dps.

 

Miim

As for further testing regarding spell rotation I did the same as Relinor basically.

MF->SF (to proc Eclipse) -> When Eclipse proc's I finish that SF and wrath trough eclipse. I then reapply MF when it runs out (as long as it is not in eclipse). And SF outside Eclipse. So I only cast wrath when eclipse is proc'd and SF outside eclipse. I didn't refresh MF during eclipse.

As to IS, please someone give me some definitive answers
I believe that the minimal damage you "might" get from utilizing this spell is not worth the hassle. I believe that it could give a minor increase in a TC environment, but not in-game (unless its a high-mobility fight). Don't think its worth building into a rotation.

DPS wise my rotation was pretty good, around 1800-1900 dps in ZA/badge/Kara gear. With no buffs, treeants or starfall etc..

But what I felt was that with an eclipsed wrath rotation I burned trough my manapool (10k+) very very fast compared to the old MF->SF rotation.

Im curious to see numbers how a non-eclipsed build with MF->SF (refresh MF) will hold up against a eclipse rotation. If the DPS difference is minor, the DPM is higher and scaling better.. I might just go for that..

Thoughts on that?