You could try the rotation I described Miim, if you have mana problems. Crits are good for your mana.

I don't think skipping Eclipse is worth it, now that they buffed it, but if someone is terrible at keeping up with an Eclipse rotation I guess he could eventually get a higher dps by skipping Eclipse and doing something like MF -> SFxN.

Man, the times people are repeating eachother on these last pages is just sick. Or the times people ask questions to an answer that can be found by scrolling up or by looking on the previous page... . Please try to spend a few minutes to check out previous posts, 9/10 answers have allready been answered multiple times only a page away.

For brutallus, I start with Moonfire, Insect Swarm, Treants, Starfall. Then i spam Wrath to proc Starfire eclipse. When eclipse procs, I use haste potion and spam Starfire untill next eclipse proc. When the second eclipse procs i cast Insect Swarm & Wrath untill eclipse wears off, and back to Starfire. And from now keep using Starfire to proc eclipsed Wrath, and ofc keep Moonfire up all time. With the nerfs to content and buffs to players im only using Insect Swarm when I'm spamming eclipsed wrath.
I start this way to get the most out of my haste potion, as I don't want to use a haste potion & spam Wrath.

As allready said many times on the last pages the highest dps possible is: Moonfire, Starfire x3 with (3/3 eclipse), (optional: Insect Swarm), Wrath xN till Moonfire falls.
edit: Personal input. With the 40sec cooldown on eclipse change, still refresh Moonfire after it fades, and then you can keep spamming Wrath untill eclipse is off cooldown. To restart the rotation. You will need to use your head a bit to keep max benefit out of Moonfire, the fun part in my opinion.

In last raid, 1550spelldamage.
My average Starfires are hitting for 3.8k.
Max normal hit is 4.5k.
Average Starfire crits hit for 7.8k.
Max crit is 9.4k.
(using Starfire idol)

(use on eclipse only, IS active)
My average Wraths are hitting for 2.2k.
Max normal hit is 2.9k
Average Wrath crits hit for 4.7k.
Max crit is 5.8k.
(not using Wrath idol)

Starting to like eclipse!
Thank you very much for the addon SquawkAndAwe, it is very helpfull for eclipse.

ps: I see many posters have IFF in there rotation, the only mobs you really need that extra hit on are bosses and you will most likely have a Shadow priest putting up Misery debuff, which also grants you 3% hit and does not stack with IFF. If you have in your roster allways a Shadowpriest in raid, you should use those 3 points elsewhere.

edit: grammar

How?
There is no guarantee that 3xSF will proc eclipse, and that means you most likely proc eclipse with your wrath and havoc breaks loose or?

As mentioned in quite a few posts earlier, someone with the credentials and structural skills required can hopefully make a updated TC post on balance.

The problem is two-fold, there is so much information in these threads and tbh, so many people that bite over more than they can chew, as in.. answering questions with the utmost confidence even when they can be incorrect. A lot of questions are asked to inspire a discussion more than getting a simple answer, cause most often there isnt a "correct" one.

But all in all, a new "information" post for balance that is updated as patches and time goes by would be very appreciated. And probably cut down the amount of repeated questions.

I think most discussion atm is structured on hi-end gear stats. Which in raids comes to an easy 55-60% or more crit chance for Starfire (has been stated before few pages back). For wrath its more like 45-50% or more as comparison. Offcourse the odds could be against you, but nearly every time you get eclipse to proc within the 3 casts (3/3 eclipse). If it doesn't you can simply cast more, pretty straightforward... . As in when you take 1/3 eclipse you just cast Starfire until eclipse procs, which can take some time.

Basically saying your statement was wrong. You have to watch procs then, and it should be SFxn (n beeing the number of SF needed to get eclipse).
Its kinda weird seeing your previous statement saying people keep asking the same questions over and over, and then giving a incorrect answer about spell rotation.

I dont mean to bag on you at all, you obviously know the class, its just theese kind of answers that make people re-ask questions. You cant say that, and I quote when its simply not true.. It might be likely to happen, but that is far from a set rotation. Cause like I said, missing that proc will most likely mean you proc eclipse from wrath instead, and then you have the ball rolling.

Yes I was wrong, I was still thinking of the 30second cooldown, where the Moonfire dot is 27seconds with glyph & 2xT6, where you could just jump in to the next cycle more easy, when casting the next rotation 3 Starfires after eclipse reached cooldown. Tooltip is indeed still saying 30seconds.

I edited the post now http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t26204-d...64/#post967657.

The inital spell rotation is correct however. MF, SFx3, WrathxN untill MF drops off.
And with T7 and IS glyph Insect Swarm will become worth to add later in Wotlk.

edit: grammar
edit extra: basicly the 3xSF is based on getting max use out of MF DoT, eclipse is just proccing within those 3 SF casts with crit rating from T6/SWP balance oriented gear and raidbuffs.

Please stop spreading misinformation. Wrath has a higher DPET than Starfire in all cases except when Starfire benefits from Eclipse. You'll have to worry about mana more, but it is still higher DPS. Yes, I am factoring in the GCD issue to this.

Attachments are one of the perks of being a Benefactor. Good to see those numbers, it lines up mostly with what I'd imagined would be the case (the only exception being that I'd expected your #1 and #2 slots to be swapped). Do you have a link to the talents I could poke around at?

What would be the difference between "Wrath only to proc Eclipse" and "Wrath-spam. SF only during Eclipse"? Both sound identical.

You have 3 sections to your cast cycle, ignoring DoTs. Pre-Eclipse, where the cooldown has expired and Eclipse hasn't procced; Eclipse; Post-Eclipse, where you're under the cooldown. The first rotation only uses Wrath during the first phase. The second uses Wrath in both the first and third phases.

Wrath to proc eclipse is Starfire mostly, but use Wrath once eclipse is off cooldown to proc the SF effect, going back in to Starfire spam until Eclipse cooldown finishes again, I'd guess.

edit: beaten :[

3.0.3 changed moonfury to 3 ranks from 5 ranks, but kept the values (10% at the highest rank).
3.0.3 also changed earth and moon, keeping the 13% increased spell damage taken at rank 3, but not keeping the increased spell damage by you (now max rank gives 3% instead of 5% according to the tool tip).

I'm wondering if anyone has confirmed the nerf and that it's not a tooltip error?

Erdluf included a very interesting stat in his report: The number of MF casts. The Starfire-dominant spell priority obviously spends less time refreshing Moonfire.

I should also add a report for the total amount of time eaten by lag (latency and human reaction time). This total lag time will obviously be less in the Starfire-dominant sequence.

The tool does not explicitly credit Starfire with these benefits so SF-DPET is less than Wrath-DPET...... but overall DPS of the SF-dominant sequence comes out ahead because the extra time spent DPSing out-weighs the advantage Wrath has over SF when compared head-to-head.

Considering Erdluf ran that at 70, would the base damage numbers at 80 factor into some slight differences in output?

Furthermore, I really wonder at the disparities between the Starfire and Wrath glyphs at level 80. Idol of the Shooting Star is 165 spell power for Starfire; Idol of Steadfast Renewal increase damage dealt by wrath by 70. I don't know if anyone has had an opportunity to test (Or even acquire) the wrath idol, and see how it actually functions (I recall the original moonfire idol worded like this actually added quite a bit less damage). Certainly our numbers want to take this into account as well. 165 spell power applied to wrath is worth more than 70 damage even without considering wrath of cenarius; it's also interesting to see where this 70 damage is applied and which scaling talents will affect it (At the bare minimum WoC will not, which gives another step up to the Starfire idol).

The biggest thing about our rotation that intrigues me is the potential benefit of getting to a pre-eclipse starfire crit rate of 70%. Mathematically there's no advantage from stacking crit to the exclusion of haste just due to itemization, but totally eliminating the RNG for the duration of eclipse is an attractive thing for consistent predictable damage. I could see some enormous tactical benefits if you know there's a specific burndown time frame where you need huge damage without RNG concerns.

Tuesday was my first try at a 3.0 moonkin DPS in very good gear. I was a little hit starved and it really hurt (SWP gear missing hit is bad) and next time I will not go without being capped on my own (and not depending on impFF). Since it doesnt stack it was a complete waste of points. I was at 126 hit after food and was getting a lot of partial resist. It took some real bad dps to figure out which rotation was best.. I tried SF to eclipse and switch to wrath and barely broke 2k dps on brut..pretty embarrassing. I switched it up to MF, wrath to eclipse then SF until eclipse is up again. I was pulling 3.3k dps with only bloodlust and no other buffs at all, and had near 70% SF crits (very lucky)

I can't decide if IS is worth the GBC, it just doesnt seem like 3% crit is worth it/

Even completely unbuffed testing on a target dummy put starfire spam solidly ahead of wrath spam(1785 dps from starfire vs 1730 from wrath iirc, 100 starfire casts, 200 wrath casts, identical critrate(22% crit, 22% haste)). Raidbuffed the difference is only going to get larger from the extra crit and haste you get. Also, keep in mind that you will have moonfire up on the target in an actual dps scenario, but not insect swarm, so you will be getting the 3% crit for starfire, but not the 3% damage for wrath. And that is ignoring any setbonuses and idols and trinkets that you might have specifically for either spell. You have to be factoring the GCD issue wrong then, because there is absolutely no way for numbers to agree with you.

Erdluf's simulation also seems to agree with starfire being more dps than wrath.

You need to re-read the IIS tooltip - you get 3% crit from Moonfire on Starfire, and 3% damage on Wrath from IS.

My own testing has also shown Starfire solidly ahead of Wrath. Doing 500 Wrath casts vs 250 Starfire casts, with Starfire crit rate almost exactly 5% ahead of Wrath (due to 4t6), Starfire came out at ~1750 dps vs Wrath's 1600.

Simulationcraft should have been using his new lag model:

With the gcd_penalty, a crit Wrath costs 1.25 seconds, and the instant casts (MF, IS, FF, Innervate) should have been taking 1.5s/haste + .25s. I haven't taken a look at his "combat log" to verify this.

Increased lag for Wrath crits may result in people being surprised by lower Wrath DPS. Even the 0.15 "base" lag may be higher than some people are using in their models.

The build for my runs was http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...33213335311030

Gear included no tier bonus or idol. It did include CSD, and the MF and SF glyphs. The raid had Bloodlust, but I don't believe it had drums.

So...... I looked at how much "extra" DPS time that Starfire had and my conclusion: Not enough to warrant the difference displayed.

So I dug into the code.....

When messing with GCDs there are two things that need to be done:
(1) Reduce the GCD itself
(2) Reduce the GCD cap, if necessary

The code was not doing #2 when Natures Grace proc'd. I'm not sure the RIGHT thing to do, but for now I drop the min_gcd to 0.5sec for Wrath (only) when NG procs.

This results in a dead heat:

Without knowing the length of the fight Erd simmed, I can't be positive, but he only "gains" 1.4 GCDs from not having to refresh Moonfire as often, and that's only about 3500 extra damage over the course of a fight. To get 36 extra DPS (which isn't as much a difference I thought I saw at first), that would be about a 100s fight. A little less than two minutes, and I'd think the fight would have been much longer. It's possible that the lower number of refreshes also implies a higher number of total ticks, but I can't be sure without seeing his report.

Also, I made a small change to WrathCalcs with some not very surprising results (maybe surprising in scale): I added a double-latency penalty to NG'd Wrath because it cannot be queued. This does change it from being a higher DPET to being mostly worthless once again. I'm not sure that this is the accurate way to simulate the no-queue effects, but it does mean it needs more work in that department. I may move to a similar structure to SimCraft, not sure yet. Note that, even without 4T6, SF has a higher DPET than even an IS'd Wrath.

[edit] Current functionality drops the GCD for an NG'd Wrath to 1.0s.

Edit: Beaten
Edit 2: Fight duration was about 290s. Input asks for 300s. What simulationcraft does is assume the mob is at 50% health at 150s, and then continues the fight.

So, the basic concept is easy enough to understan, MF, SF, Wrath during eclipse, but what I question is the sublte nuances of the rotation, actually using it for an enitre night just made me feel sloppy(DoTs falling of, cancelling a half finished cast or wasting eclipse proc time to finish a cast), so here are the questions...

1. I cast MF, and them my frist starfire crits, do I switch to wrath spam or do I build up to a mandatory three SFs THEN wait for eclipse?

2. When I get an eclipse proc from Starfire I usually already have my next strafire being cast, is it worth is to cancel this starfire and switch straight to wrath, or is there a threshold of casting time where if I catch it before a certain time I should stop the cast, otherwise let the cast finish then start wrath spam?

3. If MF falls off during an eclipse is it worth it to get the dot back up there immediately to let it tick, or just refresh it once the eclipse proc is over?

4. Now that we recast MF more than once a fight does the moonfire Idol that icnreases spellpower come back into play? Or should I keep my IotRG for the 1& crit to the raid?

I have done a little testing on the dummies, but in all honesty number crunching is just not my speciality, my personal OPINION on the questions above are as follows(note: these are my opinions; I would really like someone more knowledgable about the actual numbers to comment as well):

1. Switch to Wrath spam as soon as eclipse procs
2. Cancel the starfire and maximize eclipse proc time
3. Same as 2
4. It may increase personal DPS, but the 1% crit to the raid probably outweights the benefit to yourself.

Thanks in advance!

To the guy above me, I found my dps higher when I opened with wrath until eclipse and then SF for the cooldown of eclipse, then back to wrath. It is a pain to keep MF/IS up but thats part of our game now. Without dottimers I would be going insane.

I don't know why, but I thought IS had to be up along with MF for this to work. Im dumb