Moonkin WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion - Page 64

• Adoriele · 09/25/08, 4:15 PM

Originally Posted by erragal

For scripting purposes, just be happy they didn't give us a crazy intellect -> spell haste conversion talent. Then you'd really be going crazy.

Interesting observation: None of dedemon's graphs have us utilizing our own innervate as a source of mana. Certainly it'd be great if our innervate was available to the healers, but the current talent situation gives us dps increases by speccing out of all the mana regen talents. I'm just wondering if you were including it in your calculations Adoriele?

You get the option for it in the next build

Really, though, you're likely never going to need it, as Replenishment, Moonkin Form, and JoW are going to give you about 10 minutes of straight DPS or so. Also, I was off in my previous calculation, it's actually closer to 150 DPS.

Erdluf · 09/25/08, 4:21 PM

Originally Posted by erragal

Interesting observation: None of dedemon's graphs have us utilizing our own innervate as a source of mana. Certainly it'd be great if our innervate was available to the healers, but the current talent situation gives us dps increases by speccing out of all the mana regen talents. I'm just wondering if you were including it in your calculations Adoriele?

Actually, he is casting Innervate. The mana is rolled into the "Spirit" section of regen on his graphs.

dedmonwakeen · 09/25/08, 4:28 PM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

Actually, he is casting Innervate. The mana is rolled into the "Spirit" section of regen on his graphs.

It seems like it would be useful to have the Innervate portion broken out...... that might get ugly. I'll see what I can do.

Kaug · 09/25/08, 4:47 PM

Originally Posted by erragal

I know intensity is better than dreamstate, unfortunately my point was probably not made clear enough. :/

At the moment if Master shapeshifter didn't exist intensity/OoC would be the last talents you selected for mana regen, simply due to the 10 point committment you have to spend to reach them. If the points spent just to get MaSh are actually better spent there due to the DPS increase, you also get the benefit of intensity over dreamstate without any opportunity cost. There's also the possibility that one or two points of intensity is enough to satisfy mana requirements where you would need 2/3 points in dreamstate.

I actually like the options we have available, I just hope some of the numbers are adjusted slightly so as to make the choices more preference than there always being a best option. Genesis and Improved Moonfire could probably use minor buffs to accomplish that.

I think we are saying the same thing from opposite perspectives. You're look to see if MSS is = 12 points in balance so things like Intensity vs DS are free upgrades. i'm looking to see I can 'reduce' the cost getting up to MSS. EX If Intensity is = DS + MG then i saved 3 points so now i only need to justify 9 pts for MSS etc etc

PS I like all the choices. Too many 'good' choices are a thing to want. I've hated that currently all pve moonkin builds are virtually identical except for iFF.

• Adoriele · 09/25/08, 4:57 PM

Originally Posted by Kaug

I've hated that currently all pve moonkin builds are virtually identical except for iFF.

This should not be the case. Any PvE Moonkin should have iFF, or their guild is doing it wrong.

/rant

erragal · 09/25/08, 5:22 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

It seems like it would be useful to have the Innervate portion broken out...... that might get ugly. I'll see what I can do.

It's incidental for the amount of mana it provides, but innervate does use a spell GCD as well in case that's not being modeled at the moment.

dedmonwakeen · 09/25/08, 8:27 PM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

Dedmon's latest numbers can probably be pushed up a little.

He needs to spec FoN (since he's casting treants). That point can come from Starfall, which isn't being used.

He really needs to spec Lunar Guidance and Nature's Splendor. He should get those points from Intensity/Omen if possible (mana is tighter than it was before). Otherwise he can get 3 points from Celestial Focus, and if necessary get 1 point from IIS.

Finally, if mana is really not an issue, he can shift points from Moonglow into Improved Moonfire (first), and the last Moonglow point could go into Genesis. The DPS boost from these is very small though, so if you were at all worried about mana, you'd keep the points in Moonglow.

MF DPET is in the Results text. 104K. Make that spammable, and the rest won't matter.

The latest build available for download (r464) uses a 71pt Balance build by default.... Mana doesn't seem to be a problem.... but we do eat a GCD for Innervate.

Originally Posted by Adoriele

Hmm... So what's the Damage/Execution time of Moonfire

Heh.... The report filters out the ridiculously high one DPETs that occur on auto-refreshing DoTs.

PsyBomb · 09/25/08, 8:56 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

The latest build available for download (r464) uses a 71pt Balance build by default.... Mana doesn't seem to be a problem.... but we do eat a GCD for Innervate.

That's actually really good to know. I've been writing 66/0/5 specs terrified that I'm losing out on the 4% damage bonus in T3 Resto and Intensity. Looks like I can stop worrying so much.

boomchicken · 09/25/08, 9:38 PM

My biggest issue is how this will play into boss encounters. Lets say you have a boss like Illidan where you have to stop dps to let the demon tank get agro. Would you have to stop castig starfire so far out cause your moonfire is X long and cast wrath to make sure it runs out? If that is so eclipse might be even more worthwhile to minimize the reduced dps from having to stop starfire. Thoughts?

Erdluf · 09/25/08, 9:51 PM

Originally Posted by boomchicken

My biggest issue is how this will play into boss encounters. Lets say you have a boss like Illidan where you have to stop dps to let the demon tank get agro. Would you have to stop castig starfire so far out cause your moonfire is X long and cast wrath to make sure it runs out? If that is so eclipse might be even more worthwhile to minimize the reduced dps from having to stop starfire. Thoughts?

It might be possible to cast MF again, overwriting your 45s existing DoT with a new, 12s or 15s dot. Anyone know?

erragal · 09/25/08, 11:36 PM

I was looking through some of the new trinkets posted on mmo-champion and this particular one really jumped out.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...dyingcurse.jpg

I imagine it has a very long GCD, but I wonder how controllable the proc rate is. That's an enormous amount of spell damage to be maintained on moonfire for the duration of a fight. I'm genuinely surprised how much they're pushing the trinkets in general, they all seem very powerful even though they mostly lack clickable effects.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...maticpower.jpg

The new timbal's also looks very fun, though lacking the raw power of huge spell power procs.

Darkmantle · 09/25/08, 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by erragal

I was looking through some of the new trinkets posted on mmo-champion and this particular one really jumped out.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...dyingcurse.jpg

I imagine it has a very long GCD, but I wonder how controllable the proc rate is. That's an enormous amount of spell damage to be maintained on moonfire for the duration of a fight. I'm genuinely surprised how much they're pushing the trinkets in general, they all seem very powerful even though they mostly lack clickable effects.

They nerfed trinket -> lifebloom and roll at higher value for the entire fight.
They nerfed short buff -> lifebloom and roll at higher value for the entire fight.

I am not in beta so I can't test the affliction warlock or spriest renew dot talents but if lifebloom is anything to go by they will change it so that you can't get a super moonfire for the entire fight.

Edit:Not sure how that mistype slipped in there.

Arazan · 09/26/08, 2:24 AM

Well, realistically even 765 spellpower will only add a total of ~250 damage per tick, which you *HAVE* to use the starfire glyph to maintain and moonfire glyph to make useful. It's not anywhere near as abusable as trinketbomb'ed lifebloom maintenance, or trinketbombed earth shields were... plus, in general abusable dps mechanics are given more leighweigh than abusable tanking or healing mechanics...

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the mechanics of the starfire glyph or moonfire dot were changed to not really interact with trinketbombing, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were left in game, either.

Ursanis · 09/26/08, 5:04 AM

I might be regreting I asked this, but here it goes. Has anyone looked into brambles as a dps increasing talent? As in buff to thorns damage(on tank). I've got them to reflect 210 damage with ~1600 spellpower. So getting 100 damage out of brambles should be attainable even at 70. Thats 50 dps minimum, assuming boss autoattack at 2 sec.
I can only imagine how high it can go at 80.
Haven't been able to check if they stack with ret aura though.

I'd rather have a tree doing thorns of course, but would be nice to be able to see how useful it actually is.

erragal · 09/26/08, 8:20 AM

Originally Posted by Ursanis

I might be regreting I asked this, but here it goes. Has anyone looked into brambles as a dps increasing talent? As in buff to thorns damage(on tank). I've got them to reflect 210 damage with ~1600 spellpower. So getting 100 damage out of brambles should be attainable even at 70. Thats 50 dps minimum, assuming boss autoattack at 2 sec.
I can only imagine how high it can go at 80.
Haven't been able to check if they stack with ret aura though.

I'd rather have a tree doing thorns of course, but would be nice to be able to see how useful it actually is.

Well as of the most recent tests brambles is still scaling with the targets spellpower, not the casters. But Erdluf did do a rough DPS analysis of brambles a few pages back just based on the base level 80 damage. For pvp purposes, it's going to be an enormously powerful talent for resto and balance druids.

Well the liklihood of rolling moonfire staying as a mechanic is directly related to how abusable it is. There's zero value for pvp purposes, so it will not have any impact there. It has the biggest impact on very long boss fights. My thoughts is that it'll get nerfed if it allows balance druids to easily blow through the DPS scaling range they want all the DPS classes to be within. As long as we're not blowing away all of the other DPS classes solely due to this mechanic, I can see it being allowed as a gameplay option.

It's also relevant to note that the Starfire glyph is mechanically different than the dot refresh talents, which is why it has this functionality and they do not.