Now this is the kind of argument that is based in fact, and I don't consider it whining. Fact-based arguments can be debated on their merits, unlike whining in which people think it is OK to "take liberties with the truth in order to prove their [personal opinion]."

So let's take a raid setting and raid gearing and see how close we get to 600 intellect and 400 spirit.

Base level 70 Druid:

Intellect: 142
Spirit: 139

World of Warcraft Community Site > Game Info > High Level Armor Sets
Thunderheart Regalia
Intellect: 181
Spirit: 123

Raid buffs
Arcane Brilliance - 40 Intellect
Prayer of Spirit - 50 Spirit
Mark of the Wild - 14 intellect and 14 Spirit
Blessing of Kings - +10% all stats

Total from 5 pieces of gear (no weapon, no rings, no trinkets, no necklace, no cloak, no belt, no bracers, no boots):
Intellect: 415
Spirit: 359

The World of Warcraft Armory
Badge gear - linking this because T6 quality items are "freely" given out to casual players who can not get actual T6

Zul'Aman - Zone - World of Warcraft
Black Temple - Zone - World of Warcraft
Hyjal Summit - Zone - World of Warcraft
Casual-content raid zones

So we need to get 185 intellect and 41 spirit more, let's see what we can get filling in some of the gear slots from casual (less than Sunwell) content:
Necklace: Brooch of Nature's Mercy - 24 Intellect / 19 Spirit
Cloak: Shadowcaster's Drape - 20 Intellect
Bracer: Elunite Empowered Bracers - 22 Intellect
Belt: Belt of the Crescent Moon - 27 Intellect / 19 Spirit
Boot: Naturewarden's Treads - 18 Intellect
Ring1: Mana Attuned Band - 19 Intellect
Ring2: Signet of Ancient Magics - 17 Intellect
Weapon: Amani Divining Staff - 47 Intellect

Total
628.1 Intellect
400.4 Spirit

Unused stats:
Gems
6 Blue
5 Yellow
1 Red
1 Meta
Enchants
1 Helm Enchant
1 Shoulder Enchant
1 Cloak Enchant
1 Chest Enchant
1 Bracer Enchant
1 Glove Enchant
1 Leg Enchant
1 Boot Enchant
1 Weapon Enchant
2 Ring Enchants
Items
2 Trinkets
1 Relic
Buffs
2 Elixers
1 Weapon Oil
1 Food/Consumable


There is no way, no way, that anyone can factually state that gearing is not available -- in casual content no less -- for a Balance Druid to successfully raid. Just look at all those unused items that were not even required to achieve the raiding stats needed by a Balance Druid. 31 gems, enchants, items and consumables not even considered, and the balance Druid (not wearing a single piece of end-game content gear) has surpassed all of the stats you stated that they need.

And for non-theorycrafting, the first raid on my server to kill Archimond and Illidan last year ran with a Balance Druid in their caster group. That was before the spirit>>mana buffs, before all the new free badge gear, before everyone was loaded with epic gems, et cetera.

It is not only possibly, it is pretty easy -- the real problem lies not with the class, but with the players who think they can gear up like a Nature version of a Warlock and still raid. You can't. If you gear up like a Mage or a Shadow Priest (don't completely ignore Spirit and mp5) Balance Druids have no mana problems whatsoever.

We've already seen strong hints that druid caster gear is being homogenized in WotLK, i.e. Blizz is aiming for resto and balance to use the same gear. Which either means that resto is going to be left with as little spirit as balance has now, or that we'll see more spirit on our gear; I'm leaning towards the latter. There are also several new talents for other (cloth) DPS casters that use spirit, which leads me to believe that there will be more spirit on cloth "DPS" gear (or rather DPS/healing gear) as well.

But again, the debate about mana issues is fairly moot without knowing more about how itemization will look like.

Ocyr you're not getting it, not that important how much we have if we don't have enough to do more than spam SF in most fights. And despite your ranting, we actually don't have enough compared to others.

Please, you make my head hurt, I just want more mana so I can put up a decent cycle including moonfire, and to be able to have my feral forms play some role in my playstyle which would be a lot of fun

As i've observed I don't have enough mana to put out the goods, and my dps will suffer, not only that I see my other dps caster builds have more invested in that department. To me it seems I could definitely use some help in balance druids for mana, so for me, mana on melee applying to treants of FoN and the balance druid in feral forms with a nice buff can go along way, adding something else like reduced mana cost on crit would help.

As for how much each should give, I have only given an estimate, a dev would be able to give finer number. Whatever is given, as long as I get more mana, and get some use of my forms. Anything that will cause me to use my abilities more and in potentially clever ways I would have to master is good.

Some basic notes:

- Mana should be a limiter. If you have two DPS rotations and one is higher DPS than the other, you should not be able to sustain the higher DPS rotation indefinitely.

- Mana should be (must be) balanced around logical group compositions. This means a balance druid should be assumed to have a shadow priest or a shaman and usually both.

- The only mana-using classes that do not have to worry about an "oom" point where they go completely gimped are warlocks and enhancement shamans, the former because they're balanced around a mechanic under which all their spells are horribly inefficient but they can regenerate as much mana as they are willing to sacrifice DPS time to get, and the latter because they don't really have a lot to do with their mana (unless they're twisting, but Blizzard doesn't like twisting and will be disabling it in Wrath). Thus, worrying about going oom is both normal and essential - it makes the blue bar mean something.

Just two remarks to that (anecdotal as they may be):

- With a shadow priest (and my group usually has one), I don't run out of mana with a cast cycle that does involve moonfire (4 piece t5 set bonus, so I need to have it up). I might need a mana pot or two. Without a shadow priest, I need my own Innervate and chain pot, but I still manage.

- My mage alt has it just as bad or worse than my druid. Granted, she's at a lot lower gear level, but still. I know that my guild's mages are just as happy to see a shadow priest in their group as I am. So's our elemental shaman since he shuffled some of his gear around, as far as I know.

What's my point here? Just this: As Anedris already said, other classes have the same mana "issues" (if you even want to call it that) as we do, and we're pretty much right where we ought to be, in my opinion. If we get the proper support, we're no more or less mana starved than any other caster (except locks maybe).

Ceterum censeo: Let's wait until we get solid info about itemization at level 80.

I get what you are saying, the facts I have given you just happen to completely disagree with your personal opinions is all.

You are basing your (completely opinion-based) statements on your characters experiences alone. Now I am going to state some critical truths that need to be said in order to refute your self-described "liberties with the truth" that you have taken to make your personal opinions known. Hopefully I won't get an infraction for saying what must be said -- if you made any valid points, if you provided any math behind your statements, if you provided any facts, I would be able to discuss those with you. However all you have given has been wild-eyed personal opinion based on your personal, very sub-casual, play experience.

1. You say you have mana problems in fights, and it is because of failings in the class, and yet your elective gearing is "warlock" type gear with little Intellect and no Spirit.

2. You have 5 Red, 5 Yellow, 2 Blue and 1 Meta gems -- none with stats to help you with your mana problems (there are farmable 6 spell damage/4 Intellect yellows, Blues are perfect for Intel/mp5, and there is a Meta that gives a huge amount of mp5 for Druids).

3. None of your enchants help you with your mana problems. Bracers aren't even enchanted. 6 mp5 is not on your chest, et cetera.

Which brings us to the summary.

You only have a total of 233 spirit and 420 Intellect, even though I just posted a set of casual gear that would give over 600 intellect and over 400 spirit. So let's look at why (and I will stay away from sub-casual bashing, though being in Karazhan gear at this point in the game is a skill warning as much as anything else ... like being 1300 rated in arena with 4/5 S3).

You have not used a single one of 13 gems to help you with your mana problems. That isn't the fault of the class design -- that's your fault.

You haven't used a single enchant to help you with your mana problems, and you haven't even enchanted all of your gear. That isn't the fault of the class design -- that's your fault.

So you have completely failed to gear according to your class mechanics. And yet you have the temerity to say that the class mechanics are broken based on your broken play-style and broken gear choices? That is the problem you are refusing to see. It isn't the class -- it is you.

It's a program developed by one of the frequent posters here on EJ. I'd say it's legit.

Ocyr, if you're looking at my Ravenmoon character, that character hasn't been touched since last April/March, not for raiding anyway, it is more a forum character than anything. I have other druids, and other characters too, the gear that is equipped on the character is there for Aesthetic purposes, so I wouldn't start drawing conclusions about me based on the character I signed up to this forums with. I stopped playing alliance seriously over a year ago. Judging by reply, you seem to feel it is acceptable for a dps caster to gem up for mana regen rather than for dps, also to gear for regen than dps. ANy caster can gear for regen and will generate a lot more mana to the extent they don't need half of what they have. We need dps, and we need enough mana regen to use our spells.

I am not a warlock, I want a more exciting balance druid, more fun, more versatile in playstyle, one that is fully utilising it's class or needs to, to shine. Not enough mana is stopping us from having that variation that is more fun and from outputting higher dps. Not using our such a huge swathe of our core abilities in the feral school makes the class less exciting. We are all excited about what balance is getting for the WotLK, you are not excited, and you seem jealous, which is why any suggestion for more is been attacked with such venom.

Pointing out how an unused character isn't gemmed up or not in order to validate or disprove my points of view is meaningless.

I have presented in my post what every other class has, I have not made judgement on them, just concluded what I have observed. Of all the dps casters, the only one I haven't played at high end level is a warlock. But off course Ocyr, you no better, whether the balance druid has spirit based mana regen and the shaman does not, is not really important to this arguement.

You are not getting it that the balance druid needs more. You don't want to agree I suspect because you have some "i don't want another class to be buffed or become as good as mine" mentality, look at your earlier rant.

The bottom line is that we struggle for mana, and barely have enough, and I am not alone in feeling this. In my other characters I can pull off a healthy efficient dps cycle, not max dps, but a cycle in most fights. In the mana intensive one, we are all relegated to the cheapest spell. The thing is, this is every fight for the balance druid.

You're not getting it, we need more help with mana, if you don't like that i've gone through every dps caster's talent tree and trainable spells and listed what they have, so be it, you made a judgement on my motive and my presentation, all I said was that the other classes have more mana regen available to them then presented what was available in WotLK, sure gear plays a part, but ToL no longer needs spirit for it's buff, and I can bet you balance druids are not going to have much different itemisation than shadow priests or elemental shaman if we are all going to be sharing gear with healers, then when you count the effects of all the other mana regen/conservation talents the others have, in WotLK, we don't measure up, and I can assure you Innervate would not equal the effect of the others. You can translate that as other dps classes can afford a more exciting playstyle many more times.

So what is your arguement? I am angry with the world and don't know anything, because you've checked Ravenmoon's armoury? or because you don't think elemental shaman don't have the abilities I listed they have? Oh wait, I shouldn't have listed them? Especially when I told you I listed them, then gave their descriptions so you can evaluate for yourself. Frankly my assessment was unbiased because I merely listed what others had and drew one conclusion from it, I've looked at your analysis, and others have already pointed out many convenient omissions you have used in fuelling your rant. Want I do not appreciate is your obvious personal attack on me, you are insulting me, over a video game. Readers are intelligent they can read and judge for themselves, if no one responds to your rant from a more factual stand point, I would.

I am not wrong in that balance needs more mana generated, balance needs to use more of it's core class, in particular the feral school it doesn't use at all, and Balance could certainly do with this been done in a more exciting way. All this as much as anything in a video game can be "needed".

All those reasons are more than enough to warrant consideration and possibly even implementation of said presented ideas. If we all say we don't have enough mana regen to play better and to use our class better and in a more exciting way, and you say we do, I can only conclude you are privvy to some experience we are not

An easy "fix" here (assuming hit and spellhit because one stat in WotLK like crit/spellcrit are) would be to let Moonkin Form give the manaregen proc to Cat/Bear too, and reduce the shiftcost to 0 if you are below 20% mana (that would be a baseline change).

This would allow to pop into cat to regen mana, then pop out once the manabar is filled up.
Ofc it needs blizzard-interface-changes to show the humanform manabar while in cat

OK, so you caught the one part of the argument that doesn't hurt your head (as you say): an ad-homium attack on you that assumes you only have one high-level character. Bravo.

Now please go back and address the fact that you've seemingly randomly pulled any talent/skill that has to do with mana from classes which it appears that you do not understand. You don't distinguish between passive talents (Dreamstate) and active talents (Life Tap). (Hint: the latter takes time, so it increases your longevity, but decreases your DPS.) You don't distinguish between regenerative talents and savings talents. You don't distinguish between talents that are not featured in the same builds -- either because they're impossible to have together or simply not done. You don't break them down on an MP5 basis -- some of the things you list are actually considered rather laughable by the classes in question.

You don't address anything beyond an isolated player, such as group synergies (shadow priest). And you don't acknowledge that a casting class with zero mana limitations is a brainless class: you simply have to read what the max DPS rotation is and then do that. No tradeoffs, no limitations. It reminds me of those who would argue that they should be able to crit Starfires all day long and never pull aggro: aggro mechanics "limit" their Ultimate DPS. Sigh.

I think the arguments against your position that Balance Druids are mana-starved are very convincing. Or at the least, that your case that they are mana-starved -- compared to other casters -- is incoherent. (You basically give up on that one and finally land on the general principal that a balance druid is not hybrid-ish enough.)

I can agree that it would be nice to require more hybrid-ness of a hybrid class. In theory.

The problem is you can't have it both ways. If you're a Balance Druid dressed and talented for casting, your melee will suck. Not just your DPS, but your survivability at melee range, and your chance to hit, etc. So you go Cat or Bear with ridiculously low DPS, hit, survivability, and you melee and expect to get so much mana so fast that you can return to your casting without losing so much DPS that you're laughed out of the group?

How quickly do you expect to be able to run a 75-yard+ round-trip from casting range to melee range and back? (You won't be able to run in a straight line, so 75 yards is conservative.) How quickly do you expect to trigger mana-regenning talents when you have such terrible to-hit?

And if the answer is "quickly enough that I can pop back out to caster and still have reasonable DPS", you're expecting something WAY overpowered. (You could choose to have spell +hit operate as melee +hit, and so on, but now you're asking to be the super-powered hybrid that is always ready to do anything well without even changing gear.)

I think the problem is that you have so tightly coupled your perception of mana-inefficiency with hybridness. When hybridness should actually be driven by the task at hand: cast when necessary, heal when necessary, buff/rez when necessary, tank when necessary. That defines a hybrid, not running a 75-yard marathon and expecting to operate WAY outside of your build's sweet spot.

+hit argument is invalid already, since melee +hit and casting +hit are combined into one +hit... If you are dressed for casting dps, you will have all melee +hit you need to hit the boss, and perhaps even overgeared... as melee needs less +hit than casters.

Of course mana regen needs to me meaningful to be viable. Many bosses don't require you to stand at 36 yd range, you can stand at 20 yds and be equally safe with them. Shadow priests need to do it all the time for mindflay rotations. Point is - it should be efficient enough to do a "driveby" to regen. a 5-10 second melee after which you get 50% of your mana back.

Think about it, it isn't a lot to ask for - given current state of mana for melee for moonkins, a fully buffed moonkin swinging a feral staff will get ~400 mana a swing. With current alpha changes to +hit, allowing him to hit 100% of the time, that moonkin will regenerate ~3000 mana in 10 seconds (spirit regen factored in, since you're not casting anything). It isn't much to ask so shifting to cat form would double the mana regen.

Also to all of you quoting spriests as their answer to mana problems... realize spriests will be 40% as effective as they are now in generating mana from dps. This means that their dps would need to go up by 150% just to make their mana regen same as it is now. While I agree their talents have some nice dps boosts I doubt it will make their dps double, let alone 150%.

Regardless to melee for mana, we need to have another talent, like elemental focus from shamans, giving us mana savings every time we crit... otherwise, crit rating for moonkins is rather detrimental to our mana economy. Only talent moonkin has that procces off crit is -0.5 cast time on next spell. And it can only be used if next spell is a starfire. New aura will also add haste rating to critting.... all of which will increase dps, and mana consumption. Dps increase is welcome.. mana consumption is not.

When you compare moonkins to ele shamans the differences are just staggering in how much leeway does a shaman have in their mana management. I already described the shamans mana saving talents in previous post on previous page, but suffice to say their equally potent passive mana talents are combined with one great active 40% less mana for 2 spell casts after a crit. In Wotlk they will be able to crit on command with lava burst too... that and extra 50-100 mp5 from their water shield couldn't hurt.

So you wanted me to write even more !? that post was me trying to summarise. I don't really need to go to such depths to simply show that other classes have more mana regen/conservation talents than the balance druids. It's an arguement that goes in circle. And has many factors involved, feel free to go ahead with it though. Other classes having more regen abilities was just one of the reasons I put forward to help show balance druids should get more stuff helping them with mana.

Again how much detail do you want me to go into? I did say that your mana regen abilities in your tree, plus having 2 out 3 group mana regen buffs from classes that have (i.e. shadow priest for e.g) was what what was needed by most classes to be okay for mana and casting a good cycle, going for mana regen in another tree outside their own was a bonus.

The post is focused at looking at the mana situation of the balance druid and suggesting improvements for it. You can analayse to kingdom come, but what counts as enough mana will vary for many many people. My point about mana isn't so difficult nor does it require the analysis or the time to analyse that you would wish me to do. You could argue that balance druid's need nothing more than what they have for TBC because they are viable. You have enough mana, even though you have to squeeze through everything to get it and you can churn out dps, doesn't matter if it's the worse in both department you can, all wotlk needs is for it to scale and you're sorted. I'm not content with that, This build can be more fun, can use more of its class and can be more of an equal to others.

Why not have more mana regen when currently it's such a squeeze? Why not have it in a way that makes you use more of your abilities like treants benefitting from mana on melee is fun, they get more use in pvE, feral forms generating mana on melee with a special buff, also fun cos you occasionally get to use that side of your core class. Having more AoEs than a 1 min cooldown hurricane is more fun, so hooray for Starfire and Typhoon, as is having more buffs thatn 5% crit (yes there are other things and I know you will argue that a druids FF, IS, thorns, motw and combat rez, is equally as valuable as everything each other dps caster can bring, (which i don't think it is), you will also argue i'm sure if I listed each of their buffs, and say, oh ..this one isn't that useful, but you have thorns, and combat rez, oh and Innervate when warlocks don't, therefore you have more use) but I will say it's not enough and list them and leave readers to make up their mind whether they agree, just because you say it the list of other abilities means they aren't that good doesn't make it true, yes I've seen people similar to yourself go on about the importance of Thorns and others and tell balance druids they shouldn't hope for more or feel they should get anything more when everyone has a lot more.

So let's just say you and I view things differently, I'm happy with better AoE, AoE utility niche aoe tank role, nice decent support to groups a big improvement on currently in live, I don't think the mana will allow more than Starfire casting most of the time, which is a shame with a talent like eclipse that is designed to cause you to vary some more. i think the mana should more so you can use other spells, and they should provide it in a way that lets you use more abilities so it's more fun.


You just love telling me what I think and what I accept and don't accept, some of it which comes as news to me. So now I've gone to demanding no mana limitations, even though I state the point is to get a higher dps rotation and I acknowledge that with the suggestions you shouldn't be able to hit the max at all.

Bad rotation = SF spam refresshing IS - cheapest rotation
Good ration = SF main nuke, MF every 12s, Wrath on NG proc and eclipse, refresh IS - should be efficient
Max Dps rotation = Wrath main nuke, MF 2 or 3 times every 12secs, SF on NG proc and Eclipse, refresh IS

now do i need to start talking about the nature of SF? that it becomes higher dps with CoE in the raid and overtakes wrath after a certain amount of spell damage on gear etc etc, so it may not be the nuke of the Max dps rotation in such conditions. Then counter by stating things like the improvement to Enh Shaman SS charges, other nature only buffs, and a fix to NG will keep it at a higher dps than SF. It should be, otherwise why cast wrath? Granted the two are different magic types, but wrath only for arcane resistance mobs is poor utilisation. To ensure good utilisation, Wrath must provide more dps but at a higher mana cost, ALWAYS, so you see more use when you need higher dps and mana not such a concern, than Starfire where you would use for more efficient casting. So as a dev I would ensure that it still remains competitive otherwise it's broken.

Anyway, that was an example of how you can take one thing and go more into detail, I just choose not to go into all the detail I can, doesn't mean I'm not aware of it, I am, it is either not relevant to the main point, or not necessary to say, I already say enough as it is, I want people to read my posts, not fall asleep or skim because it's too long, so maybe you might forgive me for not doing a more detailed analysis of mana regen to the depths you want when it proves nothing, we still need more mana, for reasons already repeated a thousand times, and it's not to get a max dps cycle all the time in every encounter just by one's self, although that would be nice.

you seem to be doing that alot, just attacking. If it makes you feel better. I wonder if giving you this attention is scratching an itch.

I think the arguments against your position that Balance Druids are mana-starved are very convincing. Or at the least, that your case that they are mana-starved -- compared to other casters -- is incoherent. (You basically give up on that one and finally land on the general principal that a balance druid is not hybrid-ish enough.)
I've spent pages explaining this, just go and read them properly, maybe you would find they are not as bad as you think, the fact that you can actually write that means you really haven't read what i've said and what others have also contributed on that. If I answer you now, I'll merely be repeating what I've said and others have. You would note that it is acknowledged that meleeing is weak, low on survivability, low on dps etc, you would also find out the context in which it is expected to be used, how it deals with those issues and why it's reward is quite high, because of it's risk factor. Just because it may appear to you at first as not being congenial doesn't mean it can't be good or useable or fun in a suitable context. If mana on melee were given as a talent, say 3 points, as described here, well, I'm not the only one who would take it instead of intensity if I were starved talent points, and go into melee with all those risks involved. I suggest you re-read what has been written, oh, and back off, you're turning this into WoW Forum fighting, one of the things I hate most about the WoW forums, and it seems you're the type that really ugly the place up for others with your personal attacks. Discuss, disagree, argue even, but picking a verbal (or written) fight is what I get from your posts, I won't rise to it.

You mean lower yourself to it... I completely agree. I also had to end up repeating what I stated 2 or 3 posts ago. Sad fact is - people don't read previous pages, only last one :/

Fact is - people are trying to disprove a proposition using current BC mechanics to prove it won't work. But problem is - enough of that BC mechanics are changing, that anything is possible in WotLK. *Anything*.

We already know old spell rotations, no matter what class you are now, *will not work* come WotLK. Hunters will no longer get their autoshot clipped by steady shots, and shamans won't spam CL all day long for their best dps either. Forget what you know in BC, and try to see what new WotLK will bring.

Raidwide strength of earth, battle shout, windfury over than douple mana gain from moonkin melee attacks.

Yup, shamans get buffs too.. but remember they already have more than enough mana management talents.... We don't. Post #200 described their mana regen talents in detail.

That's a completely random assumption of yours. Wrath has a shorter cast time (better in PvP; see Scorch vs. Fireball for fire(arc) PvPing mages despite their rarity), and interruption protection. It also scales build's up Nature's grace faster.

Maybe Wrath simply isn't intended to be the superior DPS spell? It's more expensive, has interruption protection and is a quick cast, which grants it a very useful niche, especially in PvP for small target windows.


Speaking of spells and spell sequences:
Could you list the DPS (or damage per cast time rather for IS/MF) and MPS used for these spells or spell seequences?
Assume level 80 early gear, estimate 2k damage (full raid buffs), 10% haste and 20% crit (plus crit talents and Moonkin Aura)? Use Misery/13% CoE as raid debuff, not sure what else matters. No damage trinkets/cooldowns/drums/etc.
Mana just as mana/sec consumed, without intensity and mp5 buffs/talent.

I'd love to see figures of those with the currently known (mined) BC spell ranks for druids.
In particular if Wrath is viable (or when does it stop being viable), and how long Moonfire works in rotation.
Oh, and no "Starfire on NG proc" or other things that require you to react on your current cast. We know that this won't work when spamming.

The idea that any mana-using class shouldn't have to consider mana regeneration in their gear is absurd. As long as Active mana regen abilities/effects require a GCD(or otherwise staying out of your top DPS build), it will always be worth considering a passive effect in its place to increase DPS time. This is true for all casters.

That is exactly correct, and it is what I pointed out to balancemoon in detail. He completely ignores mana regeneration, and in fact mana pool, in his gearing, and then cries about lacking enough mana. He said the gear didn't exist, so I linked him a list of casual gear that would give him all the stats he needed to be DPS competitive. He completely ignored that, and resorted to ad hominem attacks against me (calling me in turns "an angry little man", "lacking in intellect", stated all of my posts were mere "rants" and rantings") -- all while totally avoiding acknowledgment that every point he raised was completely countered with specific gear and data.

When backed into a corner, and with several other people starting to see his whining for what it is -- completely baseless and unfounded -- he resorts to statements like "I take liberties with the truth sometimes, to prove my point" and "I don't really play my Druid, in fact haven't touched it since March 2007." [which makes his rants about current Druid mana efficiency based on what, exactly? Certainly not math or facts or comparisons to other classes, because it has already been proven that his assertions are dubious at best]

The facts are this: the Balance Druid class has the most powerful mana regenerative capabilities of any class in the game. Period. All they have to do is gear according to their class strengths and their mana pool in a raid setting is virtually unlimited. Between VE, MST, JoW, BoW, Spirit and Intellect regeneration, and Innervate I have seen balance Druids end Sunwell boss fights with 98% of their mana bar unused.

It isn't the fault of the class or the class designers, if someone like Balancemoon does not know how to gear their character properly. The games developers literally give free T6-quality epics away to any casual that wants it. What more can people ask for? Of right, Godmode with has 100% crit, 2000 spell damage, 1000 mp5 and 100% threat reduction so that people can mash buttons with their face and still come in #1 on the damage meter every time. Because a Balance Druid with Dreamstate/Intensity whining about mana is as crazy as that. Denial, it isn't a river in Egypt.

1. Yes, I had not read all of your posts. And in fact, I'll freely admit that your non-melee-for-mana posts are excellent. Mea culpa.

2. At the same time, your melee-for-mana posts have morphed over time, and so you don't actually have a single position to be argued with. For example, you start out with something like, "It would mean that once every 6-10 mins I can spend about 10 secs using a feral form". Which eventually morphs to just "10 minutes", and still remains totally unrealistic about the amount of time spent in a feral form. (You'd spend 10 seconds or more simply running from nuke range to your target and back, not counting time on target, and not accounting for encounters where melee must move, losing you further time on target.)

At one point, you talk about "Mana on melee and 150%level AP phrase has this section of the talent no longer confined to Moonkin form so it can be used in any form for the balance druid." Which makes no sense, since that token AP boost won't help your laughable melee DPS, yet your proposal is not based on damage but on special move use. (One assumes the special moves have to land, which I believe you eventually mention implicitly.)

Your proposal has an entire fringe of ideas that have nothing directly to do with the core, such as "It would help in everysense if druid aura's were modified slightly so that they continued outside the aura giving form for up to a certain period. About say 10secs. Not just this ability would benefit, but druids in the occassions they need to switch out to do something else." But these have serious implications. For example, Blizzard is busy eliminating totem twisting for Shaman, and you want to add the equivalent to Druids? (Except they're auras, which are more flexible than totems.)

How does one argue with this? How does one even decide what your actual, explicit argument is? You've stated something like 5 different versions, each with different details and implications, so one can't simply go backwards and read the last proposal and take that as authoritative and complete. Not to mention, you're arguing THREE different points, each of which has multiple versions and nuances: 1) Druids in WotLK are more mana-disadvantaged than every other class, 2) Druids in BC and WotLK use fewer of their trees/schools than any other class, and 3) you've got the answer for melee-for-mana.

3. I don't see that other classes use their talents (or schools, or whatever you want to argue) more fully than a Balance Druid. And it really, really depends on the timeframe over which you measure. For example, a Balance Druid can realistically DD, DoT, debuff, buff, rez, HoT, etc, all within a couple of minutes in a single fight. A Mage, for example, could realistically go an entire fight without using any AoE (of any school). An Affliction Warlock could easily go an entire fight using only a single Demonology ability, Fel Armor, and with their pet never entering combat. How often does a Resto Shaman use any Enh abilities in a fight? One could go on...

It's not unusual for a particular build to not make even token use of every tree every fight, every 5-10 minutes. Heck, there are abilities on 5-10-minute cooldowns, much less player roles. You raise unrealistic expectations, especially for a role-shifting hybrid like Druids, where we're not changing roles on a moment-by-moment basis as, say, a Shaman might.

4. You keep talking about fun, but it's enforced fun. Why not just have a special limitation on Druids that force them to melee, then DD, then heal, then melee? Literally lock out each school as it's used and force us to use the other two schools to unlock them? Hilarity ensues!

5. You've put a lot of thought into your proposal. Good. From what I've read, several people put a lot of thought into their responses. (Not all, and I'm not claiming that I'm one of the more thoughtful folks.) Their responses regarding the actual mana state of Druids and regarding melee-for-mana are arguable. I've chimed in to point out what several others have said and you've ignored: you like your proposal but it's not obviously the best, or even the right answer. In fact, there's argument as to whether the problems you're trying to fix are even problems.

You're being so rabid about this that you take my remarks about someone else's ad homium attack on you and seemingly turn it around to say that I am in fact doing the same thing. Which is plain wrong, and shows someone simply has to win, regardless of where their argument leads them.

A fair comparison can be made with arcane mages. They have 2 threshholds when looking mana gearing; 1 wherein a low dps cycle can regenerate mana due to efficiency and 1 that dumps mana for high DPS. Untill the 1st is acheived, arcane isn't really viable for long fights because it can't sustain for that long. Once the first is acheived you have a correlation, where X mana regen = Y uptime on your high DPS cycle. Eventually X is sufficient to give 100% on Y (in a perfect raid setup with excelent gear, granted).

Other classes/builds don't take this to such a huge extreme, but they do emulate it in some way or another. With druids it effective wrath/moonfire use (and in wrath, how much time you waste in melee?). With warlocks its how much time you waste tapping. for elemental mages its whether or not you sit out for 8seconds evocating. Other classes have higher damage cycles as well, but I think the point is made.

Gearing for mana can increase damage. That blue bar needs love, if you ignore it it'll leave you.

For the last time, I did not make any ad hominem attacks on him. I pointed out that he completely failed to enchant or gem his gear, or even to get gear, which would work with his class strengths and alleviate or completely remove his mana problems. In turn, he called me "an idiot" who "lacks intellect" and posts nothing but "rant" filled "rantings."

Please don't transfer his statements to me. My responses to him were nothing but a factual presentation of where his problems really lie (as opposed to where he perceives his problems to be). He is the one who has completely avoided presenting any facts of any kind to argue his position, and instead has adopted a burnt-earth strategy of personally insulting and attacking everyone that disagrees with him.

The facts remain: he has geared and jeweled and enchanted his Balance Druid as if it were a Warlock, and because of that he has/had mana issues. He ignores the potential benefits of Shadow Priests and Shaman in his group. His gearing is a year and a half old, and if he is to be believed, his ideas are actually a year and a half out-dated as well, since according to him he hasn't played his Druid at all since a month after tBC came out (and the class has changed a lot since then). He cries about how unfair it is that Balance Druids need to go 13 points outside of the balance tree to get their second source of passive mana regeneration, but ignores that every other class is required to spend 20-28 points outside of their primary DPS trees to be viable. He also then wants what, a free 51 point feral talent that refunds mana? Something like that? He changes it so often that it's hard to keep up with exactly what he is talking about from post to post.