Moonkin WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion - Page 94

Varrah · 10/24/08, 9:42 PM

Hmm... Eclipse still confuses me a bit, and reading about it in this thread hasn't answered my question.

Given that eclipse will soon be "10 second duration, +20% wrath damage, +30% starfire crit, 40 second cooldown", should our rotation when eclipse is off cooldown be alternating wrath and starfires so that we are casting the appropiate spell if we happen to proc something? I've been practicing this, and it is very difficult at my level of latency, but I've been managing to pull it off most of the time.

If it's unclear what I mean...

Cast wrath
Cast starfire
Start casting wrath
See that starfire crit
Continue spamming wraths

This should give you the benefit of the full duration, and it looks like it will be a VERY powerful increase for a short time?

sadistic · 10/25/08, 7:19 AM

Originally Posted by Varrah

Hmm... Eclipse still confuses me a bit, and reading about it in this thread hasn't answered my question.

Given that eclipse will soon be "10 second duration, +20% wrath damage, +30% starfire crit, 40 second cooldown", should our rotation when eclipse is off cooldown be alternating wrath and starfires so that we are casting the appropiate spell if we happen to proc something? I've been practicing this, and it is very difficult at my level of latency, but I've been managing to pull it off most of the time.

If it's unclear what I mean...

Cast wrath
Cast starfire
Start casting wrath
See that starfire crit
Continue spamming wraths

This should give you the benefit of the full duration, and it looks like it will be a VERY powerful increase for a short time?

You havent gotten the latest:

Rank 1: When you critically hit with Starfire, you have a 33% chance of increasing damage done by Wrath by 20%. When you critically hit with Wrath, you have a 19.8% chance of increasing your critical strike chance with Starfire by 30%. Effect lasts 15 sec and has a 30 sec cooldown.

Rank 2: When you critically hit with Starfire, you have a 66% chance of increasing damage done by Wrath by 20%. When you critically hit with Wrath, you have a 39.6% chance of increasing your critical strike chance with Starfire by 30%. Effect lasts 15 sec and has a 30 sec cooldown.

Rank 3: When you critically hit with Starfire, you have a 100% chance of increasing damage done by Wrath by 20%. When you critically hit with Wrath, you have a 60% chance of increasing your critical strike chance with Starfire by 30%. Effect lasts 15 sec and has a 30 sec cooldown.

Should be the latest info on the talent.

Rifton · 10/26/08, 3:28 AM

Hi,
With the new spellpower system, some mistakes can be made when choosing stuff (for noobies like me).
My question is about a sunwell piece, the T6.5 leather chest for druids.

[Sunglow Vest] and [Utopian Tunic of Elune]

Which one is best for moonkin spec ?

bavelb · 10/26/08, 3:49 AM

Originally Posted by Rifton

Hi,
With the new spellpower system, some mistakes can be made when choosing stuff (for noobies like me).
My question is about a sunwell piece, the T6.5 leather chest for druids.

[Sunglow Vest] and [Utopian Tunic of Elune]

Which one is best for moonkin spec ?

They are identical apart from their manaregen stats. One has mp5, which does close to nothing for any spellcasting dps, the other has spirit which can help in both regen (intensity) and now also gives spellpower through improved moonkin aura.

Zifrelm · 10/26/08, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by bavelb

They are identical apart from their manaregen stats. One has mp5, which does close to nothing for any spellcasting dps, the other has spirit which can help in both regen (intensity) and now also gives spellpower through improved moonkin aura.

Erm, you can't claim mp5 does nothing for casters while, at the same time, claiming spirit helps with regen. 13 mp5 is around what 33 spirit would give you while casting if you had Intensity.

It really depends on whether you've taken Intensity or not, which at level 70 you probably haven't. 33 spirit would be what, 4 spellpower or so? Versus a good amount of mp5... I'd take the mp5 for sure if I didn't have Intensity.

• Adoriele · 10/27/08, 9:33 AM

Good news: I got SquawkAndAwe running about mid-day yesterday, to the point where the bars are working pretty well. In fact, I ended up using it to great effect during our raid last night. There's a couple things wonky with it still that I'm going to try to fix before the end of the day (timing issues with debuffs not registering sometimes), plus I need to add in a few more options (right now all you can do is turn on/off the eclipse bars and the GCD bar, plus a couple other things like textures). Plus I need to figure out hosting, since this is my first addon that'll be released. Hopefully it'll be up by the end of the day in some form. I'll put a link up here, unless there ends up being a need for a thread of its own.

Also, something I found out while working on it. It may be the case that OoC has no internal cooldown, or one significantly shorter than 10s, as I seemed to get procs while the OoC bar was still showing. I'll do more testing on it, but that does tend to raise its value a little.

Erdluf · 10/27/08, 9:48 AM

The tooltip on mmo-champion no longer mentions the cooldown on OoC. There was also a blue post that seemed to imply 3.5 ppm, although it could have been referring to just melee procs. IIRC, the blue post actually said a proc every 3.5s. The context just made 3.5 ppm seem like the intent.

I haven't taken OoC yet, so I haven't tested it.

3.5 ppm would mean that an untalented/unhasted SF would have about a 20% chance for a proc (3.5*3.5/60). I'm not sure how talents/haste affect ppm procs, but if it remains 20% for SF, that would make it a pretty good mana talent.

Sqz · 10/27/08, 10:21 PM

heyhey, I've been browsing the EJ forums for a while and I saw some things I'd like to add

I'm using a mod called HF Eclipse, which requires Candybar to be installed, it shows a bar in the middle of your screen when your Eclipse is up and it shows another bar when it's on the hidden cooldown. sadly enough the bar isn't movable but it does function pretty well. (you can find them on Curse)

I'm still unsure whether to use wrath to proc the starfire bonus or just chain starfires and go wrath when Eclipse procs, especially after they buffed Eclipse and my guild isn't really raiding atm so it's a wee bit tricky to test it out in a raid-setting. I've topped dmg throughout pretty much whole black temple by simply chaining starfires and having a moonfire roll, but with the upcoming changes I hope I'll have to put some more effort into squeezing out the most out of it

which seems to be the case!

tylanthea · 10/28/08, 2:44 AM

Erdluf: AFAIK, OoC lost its internal cooldown sometime in the middle of beta. I have had back to back OoC procs while I was testing different moonkin specs.

Sqz: There was a post regarding the inflection point between -

starfire->eclipse->wrath
wrath->eclipse->starfire till internal cooldown is done->wrath

which required some dps calculations. For me, I just stick to the second rotation 'cause it seems to work better with my haste-heavy gear.

• Adoriele · 10/28/08, 2:58 AM

SquawkAndAwe is now live.

I'll be making a thread here (probably tomorrow morning) to deal with bugs/requests, but the basic version is up. It includes Eclipse/Cooldown, Moonfire, IS (and tick bars for both), FF, Omen (I'll remove that in a future version once I'm sure the ICD was removed and not just lowered), and the GCD. Text on the bars is optional, I'll probably make the icons optional, too. Future updates will include an uptime chart for your debuffs, perhaps other stats. If there's enough demand, I'll add in the priority queue from ShockAndAwe as well.

For what it's worth, there's a timing bug, as I mentioned before. Sometimes the event is fired for a debuff, the bar tries to update, and the debuff hasn't actually been applied to the target yet, so the bar gets turned off. I'm trying to find a workaround for it. For MF and IS, it's not a huge issue, as I re-call the bar generation every tick, so worst case the bars are invisible for the first tick's worth. For FF, though, there's no periodic check being made (yet, I may just keep it on all the time), so it's possible for it to be completely missed. It seems to be very fickle with FF, less fickle with IS, and almost never happens with MF, and your guess is as good as mine as to why.

sadistic · 10/28/08, 9:25 AM

For the OoC internal cooldown question: There is none, I was restospecc in MH last night and did chain-hurricanes on the ae-packs and I'd see the OoC buff-timer getting reset very often while channeling. This would indicate that it can proc back to back and thus it has no internal cooldown.

Cynex · 10/28/08, 11:16 AM

Very nice work Adorielle, using addon at its best.

Anyway i got a question about Glyphs. I am currently using Starfire and Moonfire Glyphs.
I am using FF --> Moonfire --> IS --> Wrath spam --> Eclipse --> Starfire spam - untill Eclipse is off the cooldown.
So i thought about IS Glyph, thought my IS uptime is very low(i am using it every time before i start wrath spamming for an eclipse proc), but i am suspicing that Starfire can cut off moonfire ticks at high haste ratings, is it true?

Thanks in advance.

erragal · 10/28/08, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

SquawkAndAwe is now live.

I'll be making a thread here (probably tomorrow morning) to deal with bugs/requests, but the basic version is up. It includes Eclipse/Cooldown, Moonfire, IS (and tick bars for both), FF, Omen (I'll remove that in a future version once I'm sure the ICD was removed and not just lowered), and the GCD. Text on the bars is optional, I'll probably make the icons optional, too. Future updates will include an uptime chart for your debuffs, perhaps other stats. If there's enough demand, I'll add in the priority queue from ShockAndAwe as well.

Thanks so much Adoriele, your work is greatly appreciated by everyone I'm sure (And me specifically!). I'll test this out tonight for you and let you know how it works. We're doing Kalec/Brut/Felmyst tonight so it'll give me some good opportunities to test things. I should have some time to spare on the target dummies in order to see how accurate the tick bars are and how moonfire refreshing is working. I'll spec out of brambles into eclipse just to test it as well (Even though brambles is feeling like a very powerful talent at the moment, particularly when a pally is tanking.) Let me know here or in a PM if there's something specific you want me to look at and I'd be glad to work it in (I don't normally use FF right now)

I'm not so sure we need a priority queue, since a lot of our decisions are based on anticipating bloodlust and movement. The uptime chart would be awesome for IFF and IS however. Another statistic that could help is Force of Nature uptime, so we can see how long they lived in a given encounter without dredging through a parse looking for cast time/death time. An option for thorns duration bars on tanks that can be toggled on/off and auto-disabled during combat would have some significant use as well since duration is still short on that buff and we don't want it on non-tanks. No worries if you can't implement any of these features, but you might find them just as useful for raids.

Also for your spreadsheet: with the latest pally changes there was a specific statement about JoW that it's a 50% proc rate with 1% total mana return with no mentioned ICD. From everything I can see that's going to be the version that will hit live with WotLK so it could be good to adjust it. Even with that implementation I'm getting the idea that our mana is going to be well taken care of in raid situations, particularly since OoC is looking to be the most valuable first mana regen talent point with no ICD. The value of mana tides is hard to quantify, but I suggest finding a friendly resto shaman and standing right next to him on most encounters as well.

It's interesting that they removed crit mana regen but specifically mentioned that OoC will still work with aoe...with no ICD we'll still have near infinite aoe. The only functional change is that we cannot use aoe as a mana regen mechanic in fights with AoE phases.

As an observation, I'm still concerned our ST dps at 80 is going to suffer now that we have to refresh moonfire. Pulling more of our damage out of Starfire lowers our crit scaling significantly, which shows up more at the higher gear levels than the lower. I do feel we're going to excel on multi-target boss fights (Where our dots can be up on multiple bosses at once) and on encounters like Sapphiron with lots of little raid-wide pings (Owlkin Frenzy becomes an enormously powerful dps talent in these encounters). If you get your spreadsheet update with the changes, I'd like to run through some potential T8/T9 gear levels to see how we're scaling with the new rotation.

• Adoriele · 10/28/08, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Cynex

Anyway i got a question about Glyphs. I am currently using Starfire and Moonfire Glyphs.
I am using FF --> Moonfire --> IS --> Wrath spam --> Eclipse --> Starfire spam - untill Eclipse is off the cooldown.
So i thought about IS Glyph, thought my IS uptime is very low(i am using it every time before i start wrath spamming for an eclipse proc), but i am suspicing that Starfire can cut off moonfire ticks at high haste ratings, is it true?

Thanks in advance.

Starfire cut off Moonfire ticks? No. It's actually incredibly simple how the SF glyph works. When Starfire hits, take your Moonfire's current duration and add 3s. It doesn't refresh anything (though it does fire a SPELL_PERIODIC_REFRESH event [I may be a little off on the event name, it's been a while] which oddly has no sourceGUID, making it impossible to track based on that), or reset any duration or anything like that. The only way to clip a Moonfire tick is to refresh Moonfire directly. The only effect Haste has on this is that if your average SF cast time is over 3s (which is very likely given Haste, Starlight Wrath, or Nature's Grace), your Moonfire's duration will continue to climb upwards, so at the end of a fight if you've managed to stay in one place for the entire duration, you might have a Moonfire that would last for a minute or so. The Glyph change in 3.0.3 will kill that possibility, though, as you'll only be able to add 9s to each Moonfire cast before the SF glyph stops working.

[edit]

Originally Posted by erragal

Thanks so much Adoriele, your work is greatly appreciated by everyone I'm sure (And me specifically!). I'll test this out tonight for you and let you know how it works. We're doing Kalec/Brut/Felmyst tonight so it'll give me some good opportunities to test things. I should have some time to spare on the target dummies in order to see how accurate the tick bars are and how moonfire refreshing is working. I'll spec out of brambles into eclipse just to test it as well (Even though brambles is feeling like a very powerful talent at the moment, particularly when a pally is tanking.) Let me know here or in a PM if there's something specific you want me to look at and I'd be glad to work it in (I don't normally use FF right now)

I'm not so sure we need a priority queue, since a lot of our decisions are based on anticipating bloodlust and movement. The uptime chart would be awesome for IFF and IS however. Another statistic that could help is Force of Nature uptime, so we can see how long they lived in a given encounter without dredging through a parse looking for cast time/death time. An option for thorns duration bars on tanks that can be toggled on/off and auto-disabled during combat would have some significant use as well since duration is still short on that buff and we don't want it on non-tanks. No worries if you can't implement any of these features, but you might find them just as useful for raids.

Also for your spreadsheet: with the latest pally changes there was a specific statement about JoW that it's a 50% proc rate with 1% total mana return with no mentioned ICD. From everything I can see that's going to be the version that will hit live with WotLK so it could be good to adjust it. Even with that implementation I'm getting the idea that our mana is going to be well taken care of in raid situations, particularly since OoC is looking to be the most valuable first mana regen talent point with no ICD. The value of mana tides is hard to quantify, but I suggest finding a friendly resto shaman and standing right next to him on most encounters as well.

It's interesting that they removed crit mana regen but specifically mentioned that OoC will still work with aoe...with no ICD we'll still have near infinite aoe. The only functional change is that we cannot use aoe as a mana regen mechanic in fights with AoE phases.

As an observation, I'm still concerned our ST dps at 80 is going to suffer now that we have to refresh moonfire. Pulling more of our damage out of Starfire lowers our crit scaling significantly, which shows up more at the higher gear levels than the lower. I do feel we're going to excel on multi-target boss fights (Where our dots can be up on multiple bosses at once) and on encounters like Sapphiron with lots of little raid-wide pings (Owlkin Frenzy becomes an enormously powerful dps talent in these encounters). If you get your spreadsheet update with the changes, I'd like to run through some potential T8/T9 gear levels to see how we're scaling with the new rotation.

Give me a min to create a thread for Squawk, and I'll respond there to your suggestions. Kinda wanna pull that all out of here, as it's not incredibly theorycrafty. As for the sheet, I'll see if I can get it updated soon, though things are getting crunchy at work so no guarantees. JoW will be easy, OoC as well, but I might not be able to get the new SF glyph done incredibly soon.

Balog · 10/28/08, 12:51 PM

So with the change to the SF glyph in 3.0.3 will trinket bombing MF be worth it?