Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 100

Emi · 09/01/08, 8:01 AM

Some new JC recipies are quite interesting. Still no link but here's the pic http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...jewel_8885.jpg

AFAIR, that Titanium Earthguard Ring is pretty much the first relevant tank ring ive seen from WotLK:
420 Armor
28 Str
45 Stam
Red Socket
Socket Bonus : 6 Stam
Equip : 24 hit rating

With the recent blues comment stating warriors may very well be getting higher armor than us(though not by much) this will make it a very sought after piece. Perhaps good enough to be on a "WotLK pre-raid gear list".

There's also a couple of other pieces there, though more DPS oriented.

mhr_78 · 09/01/08, 8:24 AM

The attack power bonus in Mother Bear seems superflous. Would be rather worth it if they added an armor buff considering all this rogue leather we'll be wearing in WotlK.

About rend and tear, it's already annoying to build rotations around having a mangle debuff on the target - but the fact that you gain less benefit from it than having 5 points in the tier2 restoration talent naturalist i would consider as a flawed mechanic for a end tier talent.

When WotlK hits, i'll be very unsure on how to spend my talent points, it would be crazy if omen of clarity would be worth more than berserk.

Originally Posted by Emi

Some new JC recipies are quite interesting. Still no link but here's the pic http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...jewel_8885.jpg

AFAIR, that Titanium Earthguard Ring is pretty much the first relevant tank ring ive seen from WotLK:
420 Armor
28 Str
45 Stam
Red Socket
Socket Bonus : 6 Stam
Equip : 24 hit rating

This reminds me of the days when you had to level enchanting to create Smoking Heart of the Mountain to be considered tank worthy.

i am glad they are all BoE.

Mara · 09/01/08, 8:45 AM

Thank you Gruturistic. Thats exactly the point that the designers, and others, seem to be missing.

[Edit: Disregard in part. Falk pointed out the AC on the neck, which does make the 'tank' neck better overall]

The link Emi provided demonstrates a perfect example. http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...jewel_8885.jpg

Why would a Bear now want to use the "Defense" necklace, when they get more "Tanking" stats out of the "DPS" necklace? Currently, the DPS necklace is better for tanking, presuming you want nearly double the avoidance and a ton more threat at the cost of 1 point of stamina.

The only way that will change is if we get some type of "bonus" mitigation from defense and/or mitigation from strength, like all three other tanks. Its ironic that they don't want druids to stack agility, but they are forcing us to do exactly that. Similarly, our old role was that of the hybrid OT/Dps...and gear appears to continue to favor this role, notwithstanding Blue's (Ghostcrawler) comments to the contrary.

I'm encouraged by what they are doing and am fairly sure that it will work out in the end. However, I think that they should be careful when they start forcing us into BC gearing choices which are no longer optimal using WotLK mechanics, and realize that some folks are going to worry about viability because of these odd choices.

Comparative values:

DPS Neck:
+60 AP
+27 Hit Rating
+22 Agility [.55 dodge]

Tank Neck:
+1 Stamina [negligible]
+38 Str [less of a threat increase than the AP/hit rating/crit rage]
+17 Defense Rating [.14 dodge, .14 to be missed = .28% avoidance]

Emi · 09/01/08, 8:50 AM

Originally Posted by mhr_78

The attack power bonus in Mother Bear seems superflous. ...

Granted its probably there just to emphasize the distinction between a Tank and DPS build.
However, we've been reading about bears having threat issues on the beta and an increase in AP can be used to help to at least partially solve it.
GC also mentioned in a recent post that they're still putting the talents in place and that the numbers will follow so im quite curious to see what the next couple of revisions will bring.

Edit : Mara, i would not be at all surprised if we find another neck piece with similar values but with a different and more useful on equip stat.

Falk · 09/01/08, 9:13 AM

Originally Posted by Mara

Thank you Gruturistic. Thats exactly the point that the designers, and others, seem to be missing. The link Emi provided demonstrates a perfect example. http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...jewel_8885.jpg

Why would a Bear now want to use the "Defense" necklace, when they get more "Tanking" stats out of the "DPS" necklace? Currently, the DPS necklace is better for tanking, presuming you want nearly double the avoidance and a ton more threat at the cost of 1 point of stamina.

The only way that will change is if we get some type of "bonus" mitigation from defense and/or mitigation from strength, like all three other tanks. Its ironic that they don't want druids to stack agility, but they are forcing us to do exactly that. Similarly, our old role was that of the hybrid OT/Dps...and gear appears to continue to favor this role, notwithstanding Blue's (Ghostcrawler) comments to the contrary.

I'm encouraged by what they are doing and am fairly sure that it will work out in the end. However, I think that they should be careful when they start forcing us into BC gearing choices which are no longer optimal using WotLK mechanics, and realize that some folks are going to worry about viability because of these odd choices.

Comparative values:

DPS Neck:
+60 AP
+27 Hit Rating
+22 Agility [.55 dodge]

Tank Neck:
+1 Stamina [negligible]
+38 Str [less of a threat increase than the AP/hit rating/crit rage]
+17 Defense Rating [.14 dodge, .14 to be missed = .28% avoidance]

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...jewel_8885.jpg (Quoted link was broken)

You missed the 364 armor on the neck. Armor. On a neck!

And I had to double check that it wasn't a ring slot, too. :P

I agree though that Str needs to do something for mitigation or avoidance, especially since it's going to be on all the homogenized tanking non-body slot gear.

Druitt · 09/01/08, 9:51 AM

Originally Posted by Centarion

Please stop Liar, as good as your intentions are, these people don't want to be ... corrected, they want to get their problems with the gear fixed, right now, immediatly, although it's a beta

Can you honestly look at gear for Druids over the last 2 years and say that they're really done it right? DPS-wise, Druids are impressive when everyone is in greens/blues, and then get hung out to dry endgame. Tanking-wise, Druids hang in there because of mechanics/gear that Blizzard's throwing out the window in WotLK. They're tweaking other tanking classes, essentially, and revamping Druids.

So it seems totally justified to be nervous and not trust that Blizzard's going to make everything fine in beta or early release or... the next XP? You're the calm voice of reason based on... on... surely not past experience with Blizzard, the originators of "working as intended". Even when it's not. Even when they admit a year later that it wasn't. Even when they change it a year later and STILL don't admit it.

spartakos · 09/01/08, 10:58 AM

However, you shouldn't take that to an illogical conclusion and choose to post nothing since, heck, everything is still up in the air. Numbers and comparisons can be very useful, especially if they help us pinpoint where something is going awry. Just don't conclude A) intent or B) that the numbers will stay that way.

The above is a blue post from the wotlk druid forums. Numbers and comparisons.
Also Elitist Jerks - Announcements in Forum : Public Discussion read this before posting. This is not the place to whine.

Mijae · 09/01/08, 4:02 PM

It has been confirmed that LotP will be a raid wide buff like Rampage. Is this true in beta yet? If so, can anyone test if [Idol of the Raven Goddess] applies to all raid members? With the consolidation of crit rating do casters benefit from this as well (or melee from moonkin)? Do moonkin and feral versions stack?

Animalfury · 09/01/08, 4:08 PM

My calcs and thinking for LK day 1, accounting on 70 level with Sunwell gear:

Mitigation

BC
35880 armor = 75% mitigation

LK
4317 Druid T6 Armor - 2679 Rogue T6 Armor = 1638 Armor
1638 Armor * 5,06 = Bear armor 8288
35880 TBC Armor will result in 35880 - 8288 = 27592 LK Armor

27592 armor = 69,76% mitigation

(100 - 69,76%) * (100 - 15% Mother Bear) = ~25,7% unmitigated

Crushing blows mean 15% * 50% = 7,5% more medium damage for us on BC and will not exist in LK raid environment

Mitigation conclusion:
We are going from 75% mitigation crushable to around 74,3% mitigation for around 5% improved mitigation;

Avoidance
- Loses around 16% dodge from agi (on around 600 agi) and get 6% dodge from talent resulting in a 10% dodge loss

General
+ 5% physical mitigation + 15% magic mitigation - 10% physical avoidance + some stats Survival of the Fittest + some stats going on armor/int/resilience's place

Conclusion
We will be different, but will have around the same damage reduction.

Remember that I'm not talking about scaling here, just about the day after.

Sorry for bad 'engrish' (it is not my natural language).

Tappin · 09/01/08, 4:35 PM

Originally Posted by Animalfury

My calcs and thinking for LK day 1, accounting on 70 level with Sunwell gear:

Mitigation

BC
35880 armor = 75% mitigation

LK
4317 Druid T6 Armor - 2679 Rogue T6 Armor = 1638 Armor
1638 Armor * 5,06 = Bear armor 8288
35880 TBC Armor will result in 35880 - 8288 = 27592 LK Armor

27592 armor = 69,76% mitigation

(100 - 69,76%) * (100 - 15% Mother Bear) = ~25,7% unmitigated

Crushing blows mean 15% * 50% = 7,5% more medium damage for us on BC and will not exist in LK raid environment

Mitigation conclusion:
We are going from 75% mitigation crushable to around 74,3% mitigation for around 5% improved mitigation;

Avoidance
- Loses around 16% dodge from agi (on around 600 agi) and get 6% dodge from talent resulting in a 10% dodge loss

General
+ 5% physical mitigation + 15% magic mitigation - 10% physical avoidance + some stats Survival of the Fittest + some stats going on armor/int/resilience's place

Conclusion
We will be different, but will have around the same damage reduction.

Remember that I'm not talking about scaling here, just about the day after.

Sorry for bad 'engrish' (it is not my natural language).

A good analysis. The last part is what I think most of us are worried about. We won't be squishy at 70 and might tank ok at 80. But by the time we're in full level 80 epics, the lower armor and dodge from agi and huge amount of stats providing almost no avoidance/mitigation will be magnified. Most of the fixes they've made don't address that.

Scathe! on the beta forums addressed it well:

I'm all for us to come out of the gate strong, but I’d really like us to be able to look at gear upgrades as a HUGE positive not just a trivial difference.

halmmar · 09/01/08, 4:48 PM

Originally Posted by Animalfury

General
+ 5% physical mitigation + 15% magic mitigation - 10% physical avoidance + some stats Survival of the Fittest + some stats going on armor/int/resilience's place

You forgot Ancestral Healing. It will actually be a good buff for druids now, and will provide a good deal of mitigation.

charriu · 09/01/08, 5:14 PM

Nice analysis. One question though:

Originally Posted by Animalfury

1638 Armor * 5,06 = Bear armor 8288

Wasn't thick hide factored in multiplicatively, and thus this would be 5,5 and not 5,06?

Animalfury · 09/01/08, 7:04 PM

Originally Posted by halmmar

You forgot Ancestral Healing. It will actually be a good buff for druids now, and will provide a good deal of mitigation.

I forgot some other things like mongoose and expertise too... The point is even more reinforced, ty

Malazaar · 09/01/08, 7:06 PM

Originally Posted by charriu

Wasn't thick hide factored in multiplicatively, and thus this would be 5,5 and not 5,06?

That is correct. Also, you underestimate the effect of crushing blows in your analysis. While theoretically, they are 15 % of all attacks, your avoidance increases that percentage (would be 30 % for 50 % avoid and 50 % for 70 % avoid).

I'd assume at least 50 % avoid for a T6 bear so that would up crushings to 15 %.

The BC Bear will take 1.15 * 0.25 = 28.75 % damage while
the LK Bear will only take 0.3024 * 0.85 = 25.70 % damage (26.61 % if MB is only 12 %).

So that will leave the LK Bear with 11 % (8 %) less damage taken than the BC Bear - not that bad if you ask me.

Edit: Nah forgot to edit the armor multiplier but that doesn't change much.

Animalfury · 09/01/08, 7:13 PM

Originally Posted by charriu

Nice analysis. One question though:

Wasn't thick hide factored in multiplicatively, and thus this would be 5,5 and not 5,06?

Yes you are right, think i had pre-bc formula in my mind (+360% dire bear).

LK
4317 Druid T6 Armor - 2679 Rogue T6 Armor = 1638 Armor
1638 Armor * 5,5 = Bear armor 9009
35880 TBC Armor will result in 35880 - 8288 = 26871 LK Armor

26871 armor = 69,2% mitigation

(100 - 69,2%) * (100 - 15% Mother Bear) = ~26,2% unmitigated

Crushing blows mean 15% * 50% = 7,5% more medium damage for us on BC and will not exist in LK raid environment

Mitigation conclusion:
We are going from 75% mitigation crushable to around 73,8% mitigation for around 4% improved mitigation;

The point stays and they just have to improve scaling as everybody knows that we will get armor and dodge in a slower pace without bonus armor and worse agi:dodge rating.

Edit: Sorry Malazaar, didn't see your post. Ty for correcting that error. Now i am even more confident about our possibilities =)