spartakos

Also this will reduce the % of damage from bleeds which will make Armor Penetration rating much better

 

nightcrowler

Ability Scaling:
with 50% crit, rip glyph (2 more ticks) and rip idol:


Mangle = 2.0*(1/14)*1.2*1.1*(0.5+0.5*2*1.1) = 0.30
Shred = 2.25*(1/14)*1.2*1.3*1.1*(0.5+0.5*2*1.1) = 0.44
Rake = (0.01*(0.5+0.5*2*1.1)+0.18)*1.3*1.2*1.1 = 0.34

remember that you should also consider different energy cost and armor damage reduction.


FB = 0.35*1.15*2*1.1*1.1 = 0.98
RIP = 0.05*8*1.3*1.1 = 0.57

From that scaling value it seams that FB is always better than RIP but that's not true, it mainly depends on energy waste and total ap. RIP has an higher base damage than FB and at least till t7 it's a big part of the dps, also RIP doesn't see armor, cost less energy and doesn't waste extra energy (the extra energy scaling sucks for FB).

So you can apply the following formulas to see if FB > RIP:

ripvsfb=fb.energy+((((rip.hit*(ap*0.39*(1+src)+4165.2)*(rem*2.0)/(12.0)))) + ((1.0*(fb.energy-rip.energy))*((1-red)*(((ap/14.0)*2.25)*(1+src)+(weapon*2.25+742.5))*(1+ret_m1*bdebuff)*1.3*(shred.hit+shred.crit *2*(1+pistinct_m)*(1+META*0.03)))/(1.0*shred.energy)) - ((1-red)*(1+ferocity_m)*(0.35*(1+src)*ap+ 1640)*(fb.hit+fb.crit*2*(1+pistinct_m)*(1+META*0.03)))) /(((1-red)*(1+ferocity_m)*(ap*(1+src)*0.002439+9.4)*(fb.hit+fb.crit*2*(1+pistinct_m)*(1+MET A*0.03)) - (((1-red)*(((ap/14.0)*2.25)*(1+src)+(weapon*2.25+742.5))*(1+ret_m1*bdebuff)*1.3*(shred.hit+shred.crit *2*(1+pistinct_m)*(1+META*0.03)))/(1.0*shred.energy))))

in the equation above ripvsfb is the energy threasold to use FB instead of rip.

If < 35 -> use RIP
if >=35 use FB if you have less than ripvsfb energy.
If >100 always use FB

As you can see it's a function of your energy, the "ticked" rip (called rem), talents, crit and hit rate. ret_m1 = 0.2 with full R&T, src = 0.4 with Savage Roar up, pistinct_m = 0.1 if you have predatory instinct.

Basically it compare the DPE of FB with the one from RIP taking into account the 5 more energy cost of FB, the extra energy waste vs a shred and the dps lost for renewing rip before it expire.

A simulation coming soon.

 

raffy

On the Druid Beta forum, players are requesting that the Bear form modifier be changed, instead of modifying PotP and whatever-else Blizzard plans to change.

This makes absolutely no sense; changing Bear form modifier is probably the worst thing you could do for our class in terms of progression scaling.

As mentioned by a few people earlier, the real issue is the abundance of extra armor on Trinkets, Rings, and Necks, and more importantly, our weapon. Unlike shields, our weapons armor is part of the item budget.

Wouldn't it be more intelligent to just remove armor'd staffs from the game?

1. It reduces the need to have double the number of FAP sticks, and allows 1 FAP stick per raiding tier/difficulty to serve as both a tanking and DPS upgrade.

2. It removes the need to waste itemization points for armor on our weapons. Instead we could get another tanking stat like expertise and/or hit. Or gasp....SOCKETS.

 

Ja7us

Changing the bear armor modifier also does collateral damage to PvP resto, which is a completely separate issue. If you want to nerf feral druid tanking, nerf feral druid tanking talents or feral druid tanking gear; it's as simple as that, really. Anything else will ripple outward.

 

Inaiwae

@Nightcrowler: don't forget that with the new energy regen you do not need to waste any energy on FB. I'd say that what we need to know is the what is better at certain AP and armor reduction, ignoring the extra energy conversion.

 

angi

It would be much better for us if they remove the armor from rings/necks/trinkets and weapons and make up for it through a higher armor-multiplier or more mitigation from something else. These items are currently only used by us and limit us in our item-choices and make us so OP. Currently a ring/trinket/neck without armor can`t be better for us mitigation-wise regardless of itemlevel. I don`t want to wear a Naxx ring/trinket/neck when fighting the Lich King, like it is today with the Karazhan-Ring.

 

Felyae

Interesting point. Some time ago I compared a Mangle only build (lvl 70, 2T6) with a Mangle/Shred build and assuming a 1 Mangle / 2 Shred cycle (which should be pretty accurate within an arena) I ended with about the same dmg/energy for Mangle and Shred. And a lot more CPs for Mangle.

However, I dismissed the idea after checking the glyphs: Playing with a rogue gives Shred an incredible +20% dmg in critical situations, increasing Mangle to 18 sec. will reduce the needed Mangles.

But with the recent Mangle changes I assume this idea is on the table again, since it would open some terribly needed talent points.

 

Vaccine

People on beta forums are reporting that the base Bear Form modifier for armour was nerfed this patch, can anyone confirm? Apparantly down to 370% even though tooltip still reads 400%.

This seems like an incredibly stupid change/nerf/whatever you want to call it. Not only does it nerf pvp specs, it completely ignores the terrible fucking design of bonus armour still being on everything but leather. This changes nothing about the fact we're forced to take every slot possible as bonus armour, it just makes us all round worse.

Now if we were too high on mitigation then fair enough (though I'm not sure how we could take less magic damage than other tanks like GC said) but find a more elegant way to do it than an across the board nerf to every druid.

On rake, why on earth give us even more bleed damage? As said in this threaqd the more bleed damage the less stats like crit and ArP work for us. This further moves our problem with bear gear to be our problem with cat gear, we're forced into one of the most narrow band of stats any class has to deal with which gets smacked by DR.

I've no issue with us being balancede but I want gear to mean something, all the gear problems I posted about from the last beta push just got even more pronounced this push. Its like they've no clue what to do with us and are just bumbling along with fix upon fix until we're going to end up looking like a patchwork quilt of bad mechanics, even if the end result is we're still the most powerful tank.

My biggest hope at the moment is that for the expansion after this they'll go back to the drawing board with both cat and bear and work out what they want to do with us, stop our reliance on +armour items, remove the terrible FAP mechanic and make the class actually want new gear.

 

Jone

I think reducing the bear armor modifier is a great idea.

1) With raid buffs and high armor jewelry, I believe Mijae calculated on page 84 that we could get 45k armor raid buffed before inspiration. As the level 80 armor cap is less than 50k, a T7 bear will suffer reduced inspiration effectiveness. Just as in BC, as a bear draws closer to the armor cap, some buffs become less valuable and we lose our most effective scaling stat. It's dreary getting [Shadowmoon Insignia] and knowing it's probably not as good as [Badge of Tenacity] for Brutallus, but that armor capping might make it worth it for Teron.

2) There is nothing interesting about choosing pieces for slots with bonus armor on them. If they put in a trinket with 1000 armor, -50 stam, and 13 spell power, would you wear it? I would. Nothing else matters compared to bonus armor until you hit the cap. It's boring, it causes pieces to become too valuable relative to their ilvl, and it can cause superior early scaling that other tanks have a right to resent.

3) If you want to improve resto armor and survival, I believe all druid talent trees now have a superior armor form. If the restos need more armor, by all means suggest that 200% is not enough for imp tree form -- but don't constrain feral scaling with resto issues.

I think taking armor off all weapons might be a good start -- as you say, it reduces the total FAP staves we need in game and helps slow armor capping in T7, but I just don't believe it solves the problem of reasonable upgrades and appropriate scaling in T8, and before that in greens and blues. 360% would be a start, and I could see even more severe armor nerfs working if appropriately compensated with a different scaling stat.

 

Toranshalur

The extra rake and mangle dmg is really for pvp only, instead of removing the directional requirement for shred. The increase to rake dps is in no way a pve nerf; maybe haste,crit and ArP do even less for us, but it's still a damage increase.

 

nightcrowler

It's not true. You'll not always end with exactly 35 energy. First of all you should take into account GCD and lag, then you should count that you must move in many fight and you could easy end with 100 energy and 5 cp, also there are misses and dodge.

As for bear scaling:
I don't think nerfing armor is a bad thing actually 10 armor value about 1.3-1.4 agility depending on diminushing returns, with the right nerf you could reach a 10 armor = 1 agility equation this will make armor trinket and so on not the best in slot but only an itemization choce.
What I really think could work is nerfing armor multiplier till + armor will have the same value of other stats like agility/dodge or stamina. If with the nerf we end up with not enough mitigation+avoidance then they can pump up us via talents improving our avoidance or with "protector of the pack"-like talents.

If those cause problems to resto druids... i really don't care, they can find an alternative choce to give them back survivability.

As for mangle: a full talented mangle vs a full talented shred with mangle and bleed debuff up does about the same damage x energy (1%-3% difference in favor to shred depending on AP) this mean that we can think to skip 2 talent points for shred, I should do some simulation about that.

 

Felyae

Confirmed. I think I was running around with ~26k armor, today I'm at ~24,5k. BoT gives 1592 armor with talented Thick Hide, what would equal a 5,17 multiplier or a 370% bonus from Bear Form without Thick Hide.

 

Malazaar

Regarding the FB vs Rip debate:

I think it is fair to assume FB will be performed at around 40 energy - considering lag, movement, ooc procs.

I'm going with 50% Crit here (as this seems to be what is expected of Naxx Geared Druids and also happens to be the cap for FB anyway) and 20% Damage Reduction due to armor.

To consider the lower energy cost of Rip, i'm going to add a fraction of a shred as damage to Rip - as this would be the move most probably performed with the excess energy.

Under these conditions, Rip starts out superior but scales worse, the equivalent points are at 7400 AP for a 35 energy Bite and 8250 AP for a 40 energy Bite. As Naxx Gear AP levels seem to exceed both of those values, FB is indeed superior to Rip under abovementioned conditions.

The advantage is that FB cycles are not timer bound so you can just FB whenever you have the CPs available (rather than having to wait until the previous Rip runs out). Also, our scaling with Crit and ArP will be improved (which will make our current gear better for us) - Crit is hardcapped at 50% for FB though.

The major disadvantage is that you will have to spec into Feral Aggression and Rend and Tear for the max damage build. (Although Bite scales better than Rip even without Aggression, Rip is still superior at 20000 AP w/o it.)

If you ever run into the situation that you have 50+ energy and 5 CP, Rip will still be the better option.

Edit: I think this issue is more complicated than i thought - Does the slim damage gain from FB outweight the damage you could gain by allocating the 5 points from Feral Aggression somewhere else, for example MS ?

 

Deathwing

Can you show me the math for that? I'm currently getting fully buffed shred is at least ~18% better than fully buffed mangle. Throw out naturalist, rend and tear, and savage fury since they affect each equally. You're left with:

(2*WD+330)/34

1.3*(2.25*WD+405)/42

The scalar on shred is 18.39% better than mangle.

 

Sadirin

I am not quite sure, but the static damage on Catmangle has been increased too.

 

Inaiwae

I have different results.

Mangle: ((55 + AP/14) * 2 + 634) * 1.2 (savage fury)
Shred: ((55 + AP/14) * 2.25 + 742.5) * 1.3 * 1.2 (mangle, r&t)

5000 AP
Mangle: 1750, 34 energy (-5 ferocity, -6 improved mangle), 51.5 DPE
Shred: 2604, 42 energy (-18 shredding attacks), 62 DPE

15000 AP
Mangle: 102 DPE
Shred: 122 DPE

Or am i missing something?

 

Malazaar

Only Shred is affected by RnT and only Mangle is by Savage Fury - same multiplier though. However, Shred also gets the 30% from Mangle:

Mangle: ( 2*WD + 634 ) / (45 - 5 - 6 - 5) # with imp mangle 3/3 and 2t6

Shred: (2.25*WD + 742.5) * 1.3 / 42

end us as being

0.0690*WD + 21.86 vs 0.0696*WD + 22.98

At 10k AP this is ~74.94 DPE for Mangle vs ~76.52 DPE for Shred.

Which is about 2% more damage for shred. Considering you get almost twice as much CP by Mangle - this is a clear win for Mangle.

 

Inaiwae

@ Malazaar: I think you should not consider 2t6 bonus. If it is that good for us at lvl 80, blizzard will remove it.

On the Rip vs FB topic - do we know what armor can we expect on bosses in WotLK? If we have around 20% damage reduction after all debuffs, Rip will probably never be outscaled by FB, but still the point stands that its scaling is way worse than our other abilities.

 

• Falk

The armor tweak made me go dig out an older blue post.

Whaaaat, why DK's? :P Something like this would be amazing to bring up druid avoidance if they're flat out set on nerfing raw mitigation while keeping similar DTPS.

 

Kieran

Hmm, you should perhaps give Shred the additional damage from Everbloom idol while you're giving Mangle 2pc T6 (it'd be 0,0696*WD + 25,71 then).

The new Shred idol ups the base damage DPE for Shred to around 29,25 - 29,3 (worked with an estimate because I forgot how much exactly the Idol gave).

 

Sadirin

The new shred idol gives 203 extra shred damage.
The current terror idol gives 65 agility.
There is another idol wich increases rip damage by 21 for every CP.
The new PvP-Idol increases the AP by 94 to 120 if you mangle.
The old T6-Idol gives 94 AP too.

 

Proudmoore Ferocious

Does powershifting still apply or have they changed any of the macro stuff to prevent it.

 

Melthu

Powershifting is dead: Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion

Edit: That post is fairly old, Furor has since been updated to restore up to 100 energy when fully talented. It still doesn't give you any additional energy though, which is what powershifting relied on.

 

kalbear

Depends on whether it's raid or individual damage dealing, I suppose. I would think that the [Idol of the Raven Goddess] would still come on top for raid DPS, so which idol is being used would largely be moot.

As I pointed out in beta forums, this does have one nice benefit - shredding attacks is no longer a must-have talent for feral druids wanting to do seriously competitive DPS.

It's not that hard to do a cat build that has both feral aggression and MS without skipping anything particularly relevant for cats. If it turns out that shred is not that much better than mangle and mangle is better CP generation, a cat could skip shredding attacks too.

 

Melthu

Are you sure on that? The 20 crit rating added by Idol of the Raven Goddess amounts to less than 0.5% crit at level 80 while the new Shred idol (Idol of the Ravenous Beast) adds 203 damage per shred. I don't have any numbers to say for sure, but I don't think you can blindly assume that Raven Goddess will still be the superior raid DPS idol at 80.