Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 102

Emi · 09/02/08, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Vaccine

...
Those new JC/quest items are really interesting but they raise the question whether the new SotF is going to be a tad pointless if all our jewelry/trinkets are going to be stacked with def anyway. ...

Dont forget that besides the crit immunity SoF will grant us on its own theres also the +6% attributes that comes with that talent.
But i do see where you're coming from. Warriors tend to drop some points in Anticipation later in the game as their gear becomes abundant with def stats, to apply them elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Vaccine

I think its safe to say there is a long way to go with our tanking at the moment, in particular I think we need to see a change to strength to make it some sort of mitigation stat for us....

Agreed. Either parry or block seem to be out of the equation as far as Blizzard is concerned. Perhaps also turn it into physical mitigation to be added to armors?

Astrylian · 09/02/08, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by nightcrowler

I'm trying to put bear form / cat form switch into my dps calculator so I need to know some info from beta players:

Can't answer all your questions, but will answer what I can. Powershifting, even over to bear for a few attacks, seems to really be dead. (The only exception being if Wolfshead remains the way it is, and that'll prolly still be a DPS loss due to not having a good helm)

Dunno about swing timers, SR is removed when leaving Cat (that's the big one), Berserk is not. Enrage does not cause a GCD. All shifts are 1.5sec GCDs. A rage-based ability that fails to land costs the full rage cost anyway. Don't have the numbers for scaling of bear abilities, but they're easy enough to look up on wowwiki, and add the new talents, I don't think any of them have changed in scaling.

Grimmock · 09/02/08, 1:24 PM

I'm curious what the napkin math would say about a tank build that skips the resto tree. I understand how important Omen of Clarity is for cat work, but it strikes me as less vital for Bear.

Obviously, Catform dps would suffer for the lack of OOC, but it seems that rage starvation will not be a problem. Missing 4% damage from Master Shapeshifter, and 10% damage from Naturalist seems like the much bigger hit. Could that be offset by being able to take nearly every talent in the feral tree?

This 0/71/0 build would skip Brutal Impact, Nurturing Instinct, and Primal Tenacity. Everything else is maxed except Infected Wounds which only has 2/3.

To be perfectly clear, I am asking this in the context of raid tanking. Main tanking, at that.

kalbear · 09/02/08, 2:09 PM

Obviously, Catform dps would suffer for the lack of OOC, but it seems that rage starvation will not be a problem. Missing 4% damage from Master Shapeshifter, and 10% damage from Naturalist seems like the much bigger hit. Could that be offset by being able to take nearly every talent in the feral tree?

I wouldn't bother with master shapeshifter if you're going bear anyway; 5 talent points for 4% damage is not a good deal, in general. Essentially you'd be trading the 10% damage boost from naturalist for rend and tear (which is a 10% damage boost to about half of your overall threat and does not boost the static component), feral aggression (which is suboptimal if there are any prot warriors in your raid), brutal impact (largely useless for tanking), and an extra point in infected wounds. To my mind that's not worth it. Feral aggression especially is a big waste of points if there are any prot warriors there, and rend & tear is not close to naturalist.

Astrylian · 09/02/08, 2:19 PM

Naturalist effectively costs 10pts, not 5, since Furor is mostly worthless for MTing.

tlbj6142 · 09/02/08, 2:30 PM

While we are talking about odd builds, what about taking 2/2 iMotW and 3/5 Furor for 5-man bear/cats rather than 5/5 Furor? Heck even in 10-man you might not have a 2nd Druid. Furor doesn't really help cat in PvE, just leveling and PvP. And Furor isn't really needed if you are MT (5-man) as you can shift enrage. Seems like 2/2 iMotW might be a better use of those 2 points. Thoughts?

kalbear · 09/02/08, 2:46 PM

Naturalist effectively costs 10pts, not 5, since Furor is mostly worthless for MTing.

True, but he was taking the 11 points from the resto side (not counting master SS) and putting them in feral aggression & rend and tear (and another in IW). If you're going to spend 10 points in the feral tree and you're only able to take rend & tear as the threat talent, it's a downgrade. Even at 10 points, naturalist is better for tanking per talent point than rend & tear is.

While we are talking about odd builds, what about taking 2/2 iMotW and 3/5 Furor for 5-man bear/cats rather than 5/5 Furor? Heck even in 10-man you might not have a 2nd Druid. Furor doesn't really help cat in PvE, just leveling and PvP. And Furor isn't really needed if you are MT (5-man) as you can shift enrage. Seems like 2/2 iMotW might be a better use of those 2 points. Thoughts?

Imp MotW is largely useless in raiding (for ferals, because balance/resto both tend to take it), but for 5/10 mans it might be vaguely okay. It's certainly going to be more useful than furor in the general case. Heck, Nature's Focus might be more useful overall if you're not caring about DPSing ever.

Astrylian · 09/02/08, 2:52 PM

Aye, not saying I disagree, just pointing it out; if you want to compare performance per talent point, you need to consider Naturalist as a 10pt talent. If talent trees went live as they were, I'd prolly also go 0/61/10 for MTing.

kalbear · 09/02/08, 3:03 PM

I can see that build and it's one I fought with, but at the end of the day I'd rather have some ability to go cat and dps, and I believe that OoC is going to make cat DPS viable if not stellar. Ideally I'd like to have two points in IW, but one may suffice. If it doesn't, I'd probably dump FFF.

dukes · 09/02/08, 4:02 PM

If you're going 10 points in Resto, surely it's worth the extra point to grab OoC? Just looking at the build I'd use as an MT, I'd probably go for this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft . The point about not picking it up, I suppose, would be as an MT you'd have enough rage to maul the majority of the time, ruling out OoC procs (assuming that Maul counts as an ability so can't proc OoC) during normal play, and increasing the value of Rend and Tear. The other options are Feral Charge (MT = less use?), FFF (which I'd take for 10 mans where there may not be another druid), or Predatory instincts (which isn't as important as an MT).

I'd also consider dropping Furor for ImpMark/Natures Focus, especially with the change to being able to use items in forms requiring less switching (at the moment it's a pain grinding while picking up quest items such as mana berries in Netherstorm due to losing most of the energy while picking stuff up).

tlbj6142 · 09/02/08, 4:13 PM

Originally Posted by kalbear

Imp MotW is largely useless in raiding (for ferals, because balance/resto both tend to take it), but for 5/10 mans it might be vaguely okay. It's certainly going to be more useful than furor in the general case.

Actually only Resto will take it as Furor provides +int to moonkins. iMotW will provide +14 (or +15 depending rounding) stats, +400 armor (post bear I assume) and +25 res over Rank 9 MotW. Seems like fairly nice party buff for 2 points.

Ideally I'd like to have two points in IW, but one may suffice. If it doesn't, I'd probably dump FFF.

Gasp! I'm not sure I could give up FFF, but you are correct. We could live without it. It has always been my bear/cat goto button when I don't have the rage/energy to do anything else as it is a macro that starts my auto-attack. But, then, I see a few subtle things (we now have CC!!) that will change with bear/cat in LK that will take some getting use to.

Edit: CC! That is a valid reason for taking 5/5 furor for PvE. Full energy bar in caster form, cast root on CC'd mob, shift to cat DPS. Shift out of cat to re-CC if necessary while still gaining energy. Hmmm! Might have to re-consider my 2/2 iMotW argument....

Ja7us · 09/02/08, 4:22 PM

Originally Posted by dukes

(at the moment it's a pain grinding while picking up quest items such as mana berries in Netherstorm due to losing most of the energy while picking stuff up.

Currently in Beta, almost all quest items can be interacted with in cat without being shifted out (although quest items you have to "use" from your inventory still shift you). So that's one strike against Furor.

Garanthir · 09/02/08, 4:32 PM

How are you guys valuing Primal Precision in your talent choices(either Cat or Bear builds)? As we move to the shared gear model with Rogues I would imagine Expertise will become quite a bit easier to attain. That makes me question the value of 10 Expertise, although the energy return on finishing moves might make it a no-brainer for Cat DPS builds.

Thoughts?

kalbear · 09/02/08, 5:14 PM

How are you guys valuing Primal Precision in your talent choices(either Cat or Bear builds)? As we move to the shared gear model with Rogues I would imagine Expertise will become quite a bit easier to attain. That makes me question the value of 10 Expertise, although the energy return on finishing moves might make it a no-brainer for Cat DPS builds.

Primal precision is the single best threat talent per talent point that a bear can take. Each point in primal precision is worth 2.5% more threat. This is, of course, if you're not expertise-capped. If you are, it's much less valuable, but it's a huge no-brainer as far as I'm concerned, as it allows gemming/gearing to be based on mitigation/avoidance over threat. I'm not sure what else would be better to take, to be honest.

For cats, the ability is less useful, but it's still one of the better overall dps talents. Each point is essentially 1.25% more damage per talent point, which beats everything that isn't mangle or king of the jungle. Again, only if you're not expertise-capped. The refunded energy isn't hugely helpful, but the expertise is great by itself. This should allow a cat to gem/gear more for strength and crit.

Edit: CC! That is a valid reason for taking 5/5 furor for PvE. Full energy bar in caster form, cast root on CC'd mob, shift to cat DPS. Shift out of cat to re-CC if necessary while still gaining energy. Hmmm! Might have to re-consider my 2/2 iMotW argument....

True, but that's more a dps argument than a bear argument. If I knew I'd only be tanking (or it would be the majority of the time) and I was doing a lot of 5-mans, I'd likely go for imp motw instead.

Jone · 09/02/08, 5:28 PM

Originally Posted by kalbear

[...] feral aggression (which is suboptimal if there are any prot warriors in your raid)

This has been true up until now, but I'm not sure if it still is. The current list for attack power debuffs is -416 (wowhead) or -478 (MMO champion) for Curse of Weakness, -410 for demo shout, and -408 for demo roar. I suspect they will end up exactly equal when talented, but even if they aren't, the 0.5% difference between warrior and druid will probably still be less than the rounding error on most attacks.

Warlocks will have a strong case for 1 more curse of doom for raid DPS whenever there is a druid or warrior tank. Prot warriors generally have to give up imp thunderclap to get imp demo, and imp TC is better for 5 man and solo activities. For druids, it is at least in the right tree and has some small DPS benefits. I suspect druid tanks will be default AP debuffers in any raid you can't sweet-talk a DPS warrior into doing it for you.