Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 105

Vaccine · 10/02/08, 3:56 PM

Originally Posted by Janraea

1) Overheal on normal LotP is pretty huge as well. Overheal on Vampiric Embrace is large as well. This is a non-argument, unless you think the numbers are balanced around matching blocking numbers. The overheal of keeping a lifebloom ticking on the tank is pretty crazy, but regular additional heals even out damage spikes. Sure they're overheals most of the time, but the times that they're not, they really help.

2) All heal over times scale negatively with avoidance. If you think you'll be spending 95% of a fight at full health in a raid you don't overgear in WotLK, you haven't been following the mana/hp changes. Healers will have mana problems in fights now, and spamming overheals at you is a horible waste.

3) I.. I'm not grasping your point. The 5% crit is no longer required for a cat, since we can get it from other sources now. It's a raid buff, you know. Most of those cost more than one talent point - there's no reason ours should be nearly free.

4)Do you use 'knock' to mean bonus here? Cause I can't see how gaining health we didn't gain before can be a *bad* thing.. I don't think ferals need to worry about becoming overpowered in arenas.

The bottom line is that you don't really have a grasp on the impact of this mechanic on raiding. It's not huge - that's kind of the point. It's just a way to let them nerf our mitigation while giving us a nice mechanic to let us scale in a useful way with some of the pointless rogue stats we'll be swimming in. 99% of the time, eh? I'd be curious to see the simulation on that one.

1) True but iLotP was intended for groups that didn't get focus heals against small aoe damage. It wasn't put in as a self buff to help bear tanks. Lifebloom is rolled at the moment because its ridiculously overpowered and thats been addressed in WotLK.

2) Right...but this is being touted as a trade off for reducing our mitigation. Yer spamming overheals is a waste, this talent though isn't going to change that, because a healer can't rely on it to provide a heal in his place.

3) What isn't to grasp? Raiding cat builds aren't going to be going into iLotP. This change forces them 3 points in instead of 1. You point at fury warriors saying "other people can provide the buff" then say most cost more than one point... the direct equivalent doesn't why should this? Also you aren't thinking about what happens if your guild either doesn't have 100% attendance fury warrior or doesn't have one at all.

4) Yes I mean bonus.

The bottom line is that you don't really have a grasp on the impact of this mechanic on raiding. The random nature of it makes it impossible to rely on so what do you really gain? Hell, its hardly any difference from the current mechanic.

Longhorn · 10/02/08, 4:31 PM

Regarding the talent: Primal Precision (increases expertise by 10, refunds 80% of energy if you miss a finishing move).

I see many people including this in their bear builds in beta, however I'm wondering at what point we can drop it for other tanking talents? As we well know our gear is LOADED with expertise. Mid to late T7 I'm thinking. Currently my bear has 151 expertise points which converts into 18 expertise rating. With the talent I'm sitting at a 28 expertise rating.

For tanking being able to drop this talent (if its not providing anythign anyway) would be nice, even though it provides a lot of bang for its buck. It means we could toss the other 2 points into improved leader of the pack, rend and tear, or even brutal impact if you're doing a lot of heroics.

Maeltne · 10/02/08, 4:35 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

Just completed my analysis of Swipe+Thorns vs Consecration+Retribution Aura: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Swipe: You're not done yet.

I understand that 1734 spell power on the paladin is a generous amount, but note that only 4% of spell power goes into Consecration per tick.

The relevant values for me are 609 tps for Consecreate, and 572 tps for Swipe spam. This is close enough, and your spell power questionable enough, that I can be happy with it. Ret aura/thorns can be removed from the calculation (aside from potential thorn 'bug') as either can get both.

Janraea · 10/02/08, 4:43 PM

Originally Posted by Vaccine

1)
2) Right...but this is being touted as a trade off for reducing our mitigation. Yer spamming overheals is a waste, this talent though isn't going to change that, because a healer can't rely on it to provide a heal in his place.

3) What isn't to grasp? Raiding cat builds aren't going to be going into iLotP. This change forces them 3 points in instead of 1. You point at fury warriors saying "other people can provide the buff" then say most cost more than one point... the direct equivalent doesn't why should this? Also you aren't thinking about what happens if your guild either doesn't have 100% attendance fury warrior or doesn't have one at all.

4) Yes I mean bonus.

The bottom line is that you don't really have a grasp on the impact of this mechanic on raiding. The random nature of it makes it impossible to rely on so what do you really gain? Hell, its hardly any difference from the current mechanic.

1) What a talent was 'intended for' isn't a good argument here. We're talking about *changing the intent*. Lifebloom rolling will still be done in WotLK, it's just less powerful. The value of a constant heal over time is not in doubt, if that's what you're trying to imply.

2) This talent isn't going to change the inefficiency of spamming overheals, but the inefficiency of spamming overheals changes the healing model significantly. Keeping a feral tank topped off is only necessary on spiky bosses, since we have larger health pools - the amount of actual healing done is controlled by how much of the time a tank spends not at max health. I don't know if you remember pre-BC raiding, but back when mana was an issue, overhealing done was the main metric by which the skill of a healer was determined.

3) This is no different from other class's situations - you spend talent points to get a raid buff, unless you can convince someone else to take it. If your argument is that cats would rather it be one talent point than three, then sure. They'd also rather it be baseline than one talent point. It's irrelevant to the discussion, until after they stop making changes, and we hit 80 and see where our dps is at.

I have an excellent grasp of the effect something like this would have in raiding. It would be significant, but not overpowering (like it would be if every proc were actual healing). The random nature of critical strikes makes them impossible to rely on as well, so would you propose that holy paladins stop stacking it? What you really gain is a significant amount of health every fight.

• sadris · 10/02/08, 4:45 PM

Originally Posted by Maeltne

The relevant values for me are 609 tps for Consecreate, and 572 tps for Swipe spam. This is close enough, and your spell power questionable enough, that I can be happy with it. Ret aura/thorns can be removed from the calculation (aside from potential thorn 'bug') as either can get both.

This is a self-only buff: Righteous Fury - Spell - World of Warcraft

coredumperror · 10/02/08, 4:55 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

Just completed my analysis of Swipe+Thorns vs Consecration+Retribution Aura: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Swipe: You're not done yet.

I understand that 1734 spell power on the paladin is a generous amount, but note that only 4% of spell power goes into Consecration per tick.

Did you do the math on Damage Shield + Thunderclap? I know close to nothing about tclap, but Damage Shield seems overpowered compared to every other AOE threat mechanics, even consecrate. 20% of block value as a permanent self-only thorns aura scales amazingly well with gear (10str/5BV per 1 damage, vs. 10str/20spellpower per 1 dmg on Consecrate). Apparently, Damage Shield procs can crit as well (taken from a wowhead comment... with a grain of salt). This is so many leagues ahead of Thorns that it's not even worth talking about Thorns in the same discussion.

• Astrylian · 10/02/08, 5:06 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

This is a self-only buff: Righteous Fury - Spell - World of Warcraft

Bears can have Ret Aura, and Paladins can have Thorns. However, only when the other is around, which makes bears worse aoe tanks for 5mans, and sometimes 10mans.

EDIT: What sadris is trying to point out though is that even with bears getting Ret Aura, they get less threat out of it due to not having RF.

Malazaar · 10/02/08, 5:52 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Bears can have Ret Aura, and Paladins can have Thorns. However, only when the other is around, which makes bears worse aoe tanks for 5mans, and sometimes 10mans.

EDIT: What sadris is trying to point out though is that even with bears getting Ret Aura, they get less threat out of it due to not having RF.

Also, Paladins are getting a lot more from thorns due to the spellpower they have.

• Falk · 10/02/08, 5:53 PM

I just ran Utgarde Keep and got both the tank belt AND Enraged Feral Staff, on the first run. :P Too bad that kind of luck won't see me on live.

The staff is now 700 Armor... looks like they're at least reading feedback. 700 is still kinda high, though...

Salex · 10/02/08, 6:01 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Bears can have Ret Aura, and Paladins can have Thorns. However, only when the other is around, which makes bears worse aoe tanks for 5mans, and sometimes 10mans.

EDIT: What sadris is trying to point out though is that even with bears getting Ret Aura, they get less threat out of it due to not having RF.

BTW, if NI giving spell power now, since there is no +heal anymore, then:

A T7 druid with 2/2N NI would be at about ~1000 spell power. At the posted thorns scaling rate (6-7%) ~+65 damage (+135.2 threat/hit -> +90 TPS)

If you were crazy enough to go brambles -> 364 TPS total for thorns. (BTW, Thorns would be hitting for 262 damage here.. -- rogue killer in PVP?)

... If NI gives spell power...

BTW, has anyone run numbers on Genesis with the new rake for cat dps?

Deathwing · 10/02/08, 6:12 PM

Nurturing Instinct still says it only applies to healing spells.

I kinda like the idea. Reeks of band-aid, though, and I don't have the talent points to spare anyway.

Duilliath · 10/02/08, 6:13 PM

Just a stupid question, but where the hell are you going to find 8 more talent points to get down to Brambles when most people have trouble fitting everything into a 'normal' feral build ?

--

Sadris, I seem to have missed it, but did you take the standard Salvation baked into DPS classes into account ? 740 dmg = 740 threat seems to imply you didn't, though I might be misreading. 40% off would land it @ 444, which is below the TPS the Druid in your example is generating.

Krag · 10/02/08, 6:14 PM

Originally Posted by Salex

BTW, if NI giving spell power now, since there is no +heal anymore

There is still both healing and damage for spells, just only spellpower on gear which gives both. Talents can give bonuses to either or both and as Deathwing says NI only gives a bonus to healing.

Salex · 10/02/08, 6:28 PM

Originally Posted by Krag

There is still both healing and damage for spells, just only spellpower on gear which gives both. Talents can give bonuses to either or both and as Deathwing says NI only gives a bonus to healing.

That would be too bad, but I never trust tooltips in a beta..

If it did give spell damage, I wonder if it would make moonfire viable for cat DPS rotation (assuming furor)...

dukes · 10/02/08, 6:29 PM

Just been on beta to make sure, and it doesn't give spell power, it's just healing.

Maeltne · 10/02/08, 6:38 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

EDIT: What sadris is trying to point out though is that even with bears getting Ret Aura, they get less threat out of it due to not having RF.

As I understand it, please correct me if I am wrong. Druid get a threat modifier in bear form, warriors get one with defensive stance, and paladins get one with Righteous Fury.

Would not the Ret aura be subject to our Bear modifier, similarly to how it is increased by a paladins righteous fury?

Krag · 10/02/08, 6:39 PM

Originally Posted by Salex

BTW, has anyone run numbers on Genesis with the new rake for cat dps?

Rake and Lacerate ticks for the same with 0/5 and 5/5 Genesis so it's just for spell dots it would seem. I'll check Rip for completeness once my hearthstone is up.

Edit: No bonus for Rip either as expected.

• Astrylian · 10/02/08, 6:40 PM

I thought they added an extra base multiplier in for pallies, and Holy just has an even higher multiplier for them. Ours is 2.07, i think (going off memory here), and theirs for Holy is 2.72.

• Falk · 10/02/08, 6:55 PM

RF is a higher multiplier than Bear/Defensive Stance.

...Well, at least, it is on Live at the moment.

Edit: Aaaand, shouldn't leave windows open for hours.

teiglin · 10/02/08, 7:15 PM

Has anyone suggested that they just make thorns scale with AP as well as (or even instead of) spellpower, like pally spells? It would be very welcome scaling for us with our high AP equipment, and would at least allow our reactive threat to scale like warriors and pallies.

I'm also frustrated at the limitations on swipe. Positioning requirements aside (which are more an inconvenience than a serious limitation), swipe requires literally spamming on every GCD to compete with an pally spell that lasts 8s or a warrior spell on a 6s cd. During that time warriors or pallies could be generating threat on a single, larger target for single target dps to focus on, or tab-spamming abilities to increase overall AoE threat. Even if it is putting out comparable overall tps, the fact that it takes every single GCD is a problem. I'd honestly be in favor of adding a short cd to swipe and buffing its damage to be comparable to thunder clap, or something.

◊ Regen · 10/02/08, 7:51 PM

Originally Posted by teiglin

Has anyone suggested that they just make thorns scale with AP as well as (or even instead of) spellpower, like pally spells? It would be very welcome scaling for us with our high AP equipment, and would at least allow our reactive threat to scale like warriors and pallies.

I'm also frustrated at the limitations on swipe. Positioning requirements aside (which are more an inconvenience than a serious limitation), swipe requires literally spamming on every GCD to compete with an pally spell that lasts 8s or a warrior spell on a 6s cd. During that time warriors or pallies could be generating threat on a single, larger target for single target dps to focus on, or tab-spamming abilities to increase overall AoE threat. Even if it is putting out comparable overall tps, the fact that it takes every single GCD is a problem. I'd honestly be in favor of adding a short cd to swipe and buffing its damage to be comparable to thunder clap, or something.

Mangle + Maul? Seriously, nothing is forcing you to swipe every single GCD, you are basically whining at blizzard because you are doing it wrong.

Do we have to work harder to achieve good aoe threat? Yes, and even more so in regards to warriors.

• sadris · 10/02/08, 7:59 PM

Originally Posted by Regen

Mangle + Maul? Seriously, nothing is forcing you to swipe every single GCD, you are basically whining at blizzard because you are doing it wrong.

Mangle and Maul hits 1 to 2 targets. Swipe hits infinity targets.

Here is the model assuming both the Druid and the Paladin have Retribution Aura + Thorns. Paladin stats changed as recommended by the BB to 724 SP and 2308 AP.

Edit: Didn't account for Naturalist...

kalbear · 10/02/08, 8:03 PM

I'm not sure single target will be so problematic, to be honest. With swipe and primal fury bears will actually be gaining rage with swipe quite a bit of the time. Maul should be able to be used nearly 100% of the time with 6 or more swiped mobs. Given how good maul is, I don't know that mangle would even need to be up to keep reasonable single-target threat. The disadvantage is simply that the AoE threat is already less, and if a druid needs to do anything else other than spam swipe (such as taunt, break a snare, charge, whatever) they'll lose a disproportionate amount of AoE threat to a paladin, DK or warrior.

◊ Regen · 10/02/08, 8:06 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

Mangle and Maul hits 1 to 2 targets. Swipe hits infinity targets.

Here is the model assuming both the Druid and the Paladin have Retribution Aura + Thorns. Paladin stats changed as recommended by the BB to 724 SP and 2308 AP.

Edit: Didn't account for Naturalist...

Ok so you're basically confirming paladins have slightly better aoe tps. Am I missing something?

In almost every situation where there are mass targets that must be aoe'd down their health is reasonably low making the threat threshold fairly low in a raid setting. In any situation where say you have to generate aoe threat on 3 targets druids have a much better time holding aoe threat + main assist threat simultaneously via mangle/maul cycling.

edit: we are basically arguing nothing / things that already exist in the game. Someone is going to have better aoe threat (hello paladins), just as well as we will have our advantages.... even if the goal is to keep all tanks in-line within reason.

• sadris · 10/02/08, 8:13 PM

Originally Posted by Regen

Ok so you're basically confirming paladins have slightly better aoe tps. Am I missing something?

edit: we are basically arguing nothing / things that already exist in the game. Someone is going to have better aoe threat (hello paladins), just as well as we will have our advantages.... even if the goal is to keep all tanks in-line within reason.

They have 150 more tps, which is a lot when you are only on the order of 750 tps. A tank is not interchangeable with another if it is just barely above a conservative warlock AOE spam estimate and the tank has perfect conditions. Also, it is important to remember that this requires no latency and the usage of Swipe on every GCD, and that all the mobs are in front of oneself. Paladins are still able to use abilities like Holy Shield and Avenger's Shield as Consecration has an 8 second cooldown.

Blizzard has stated that they are trying to remove advantages between tanks such that an encounter does not require their presence.