Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 107

nightcrowler · 10/03/08, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Helban

That was a very productive post nightcrowler, thank you. I have just read the data into an analysis tool, and over all it shows your hybrid spec with specific gear to be a complete winner, which has always been a personal preference of mine so the news is good to these ears. Any idea how removing RandT + IW and bringing in NS + MS to the hybrid build would affect those numbers? Something like this build

Proposed Hybrid Build

Other data:

with a FULL CAT build:

Mangle spam (using shred only with ooc procs): 4969 dps (-2.3% dps)

without R&T:

with shred: 4702 dps
with mangle spam: 4698 dps

so considering the error (0.25%) mangle spam is equal to shred if you don't have R&T.

So:
regarding the proposed hybrid build at this point it's better this one (2 more point into impMangle and remove Shreding attack).

Report:

CAT with cat gear: 4629 dps.

Bear unlimited rage (with bear gear): 2943 dps, 7072 tps, 294303 tank points.
Bear rage starved (with bear gear): 2137 dps, 4165 tps, 295721 tank points.

angi · 10/03/08, 11:59 AM

Nice and thx for your sims nightcrawler. so for now 2t6 mangle spam with full cat specc is top dps, right? :P
Looks like it has to be nerfed for the future.

Helban · 10/03/08, 12:06 PM

Thank you for your extremely fast response!

The figures seem to suggest that the two Hybrid specs are rather close. The TPS in an Infinite Rage situation are almost identical, there is a small lead in a starved situation, and cat quite obviously has a very small DPS drop... but does offer some solo/pvp utility with cheaper shifts and relying less on Shred damage.

Besides the debate with regards to Infected Wounds, which one could always drop iLotp/Brutal Impact for, those numbers convinced me that the hybrid builds will work very well

Melthar · 10/03/08, 12:25 PM

How are these sims factoring in the situation with UR/Abom's might vs Savage Roar (ie, on Beta currently Savage Roar overwrites UR/Abom's might so we don't get to benefit from the 10% AP)

nightcrowler · 10/03/08, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Melthar

How are these sims factoring in the situation with UR/Abom's might vs Savage Roar (ie, on Beta currently Savage Roar overwrites UR/Abom's might so we don't get to benefit from the 10% AP)

It doesn't, as I've said I've supposed that they stack because I'm pretty sure It's a bug and it will be fixed before we reach 80.

Mijae · 10/03/08, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by angi

Nice and thx for your sims nightcrawler. so for now 2t6 mangle spam with full cat specc is top dps, right? :P
Looks like it has to be nerfed for the future.

No, mangle spam with 2t6 is only good IF you don't have Shredding Attacks and RnT. You really need to qualify that kind of statement. It does not need to be nerfed.

Nightcrowler - What cycle is your cat sim using? Do you change them based on gear/spec? For example, my estimates show SR/Rip/FB best for a full cat, but a full bear in cat form would not have the CP generation to sustain it and would be better off using just SR/Rip.

Also, it's a bit unfair to compare the dps of those 2 hybrid builds since the Shred version includes IW and the other doesn't. The Shred one includes Primal Precision and the other doesn't also (a larger impact on bear difference). It would be better to compare the two specs only changing RnT to MS. Of course, it's hard to quantify the value of gaining a utility talent (iLotP or BI) by dropping SA. Changing PP to one of these would be a personal preference.

Malazaar · 10/03/08, 1:18 PM

Originally Posted by Mijae

No, mangle spam with 2t6 is only good IF you don't have Shredding Attacks and RnT. You really need to qualify that kind of statement. It does not need to be nerfed.

Actually, 2t6 Mangle spam with improved mangle is currently superior to shred with RnT. This isn't factoring in the stats you lose by wearing 2 pieces t6 though.

Tappin · 10/03/08, 1:25 PM

@nightcrowler's post:

This backs up what I've been saying regarding the talent 'split'. So many druids (mostly at the 'official' forums) have been crying about destroying druids by forcing us to choose between tank and dps. You only have to choose between tank and cat if you want to min/max that aspect. A hybrid build means getting almost all of the important talent points for tanking and dps. You can get 90%ish max cat dps, every survivability talent expect improved FA, and 90%ish of the threat. You can still be a bear and cat.

Most likely that 10% tps or dps won't get you kicked out of a group. And without a doubt fight mechanics, gear, and player skill will have a larger impact than the last few talent points you leave out.

Obviously this is not the ideal pvp or soloing spec. But I don't think a 5 man / raiding spec is ideal for almost any class.

angi · 10/03/08, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by Mijae

No, mangle spam with 2t6 is only good IF you don't have Shredding Attacks and RnT. You really need to qualify that kind of statement. It does not need to be nerfed.

If nightcrawlers sims are right and mangle spam without 2t6 is on par with a shred-rotation (4969 vs. 5085), than it will be far superior with 2t6. Nightcrawler can you run this last test to give the numbers?

kalbear · 10/03/08, 1:46 PM

Actually, 2t6 Mangle spam with improved mangle is currently superior to shred with RnT. This isn't factoring in the stats you lose by wearing 2 pieces t6 though.

Let's go with that a bit. I chose 3 213-level items that I believe to be best in slot for cat dps. Let's compare them.

T6 bracers vs Sinner's Bindings:

item name	armor	str	agi	stam	int	socket	hit	crit	haste	arpen	exp	AP
T6 bracers	211	29	28	39	13	R	0	0	0	13	0	0
Sinner's B	253	0	38	55	0	R	0	41	24	0	0	96
difference	42	-29	10	16	-13	0	0	41	24	-13	0	96

So it's a loss of 96 AP but gaining 29 str, a loss of 10 agi, 41 crit, and 24 haste. The crit probably hurts, but a loss of 40 AP is not a killer.
T6 belt vs belt of the tortured:

item name	armor	str	agi	stam	int	socket	hit	crit	haste	arpen	exp	AP
T6    belt 	272	39	40	33	20	R	23	0	0	0	0	0
Belt of t	325	0	53	75	0	0	50	43	0	0	0	150
difference	53	-39	13	42	-20	R	27	43	0	0	0	150

150 AP vs 39 strength, 53 agi vs 40 with a red socket, 27 hit, 43 crit. Again, the crit is the really big one here; the AP difference is only going to be around 60 after stat boosts to str, and the belt actually will have more agility than the 213 level item because of the socket.

T6 boots vs. dawnwalkers

item name	armor	str	agi	stam	int	socket	hit	crit	haste	arpen	exp	AP
T6     boots	332	35	35	54	18	R	0	0	0	0	27	0
Dawnwalk	398	0	50	57	0		50	57	0	0	0	148
difference	66	-35	15	3	-18	R	50	57	0	0	-27	148

35 str vs 148 Ap, 15 agi, 50 hit, 57 crit and subtracting 27 exp. That's probably the biggest hit of the lot.

So if you're doing this, go for the belt and bracers soon.

BOHIC · 10/03/08, 1:58 PM

Originally Posted by Malazaar

Actually, 2t6 Mangle spam with improved mangle is currently superior to shred with RnT. This isn't factoring in the stats you lose by wearing 2 pieces t6 though.

This is only because of squeezing more finishers into SR time, right? Shred will still be a no-brainer for those of us raiding at level 70 post 3.0?

tangedyn · 10/03/08, 1:58 PM

Hi everyone,

I have release my Cat DPS Simulator, available at:
wowcatsim - Google Code

It's open source, under the BSD license, so you can pretty much do whatever you want with it.
If you would like to be added as a developer to the project, do let me know.

It's still a work in progress. I'm now working on a strategy scripting system so that it would be easy to refine your attack strategy without having to rebuild the whole project.

Do try it out and let me know what you would like to see changed/improved/added.

Thanks!

kalbear · 10/03/08, 2:03 PM

This is only because of squeezing more finishers into SR time, right? Shred will still be a no-brainer for those of us raiding at level 70 post 3.0?

Yes; without SR I believe the classic cycle will still hold. FB will still be too weak (and you don't really have the 10 points to spend making it better) and shred will still outperform mangle since CPs don't matter as much.

tangedyn · 10/03/08, 2:11 PM

Originally Posted by tangedyn

Hi everyone,

I have release my Cat DPS Simulator, available at:
wowcatsim - Google Code

It's open source, under the BSD license, so you can pretty much do whatever you want with it.
If you would like to be added as a developer to the project, do let me know.

It's still a work in progress. I'm now working on a strategy scripting system so that it would be easy to refine your attack strategy without having to rebuild the whole project.

Do try it out and let me know what you would like to see changed/improved/added.

Thanks!

If you are interested in the Mangle Spam vs Shred, these are my numbers:
Assuming all talents, 5000 AP, 30% crit, 4% hit, 2.5% expertise, no haste, 30% dr from armor, 2xT6, rip and mangle glyphs, no berserk/tigers fury

Roar/Rip/Rake/MangleSpam strategy gives 1720.42 +/- 0.52 dps:
1. If Savage Roar is down and CP > 0, perform Savage Roar
2. If CP = 5, perform Rip
3. If Rake is down, perform Rake
4. Mangle

Roar/Rip/Rake/Mangle/Shred gives 1699.58 +/- 0.59 dps:
1. If Savage Roar is down and CP > 0, perform Savage Roar
2. If CP = 5, perform Rip
3. If Rake is down, perform Rake
4. If Mangle is down, perform Mangle
5. Shred

You can try out the simulator yourself, configure your stats and talents.
I'm working on making the strategy configurable too, so you can remove Rake and see the effects if you like

Malazaar · 10/03/08, 2:26 PM

Originally Posted by BOHIC

This is only because of squeezing more finishers into SR time, right? Shred will still be a no-brainer for those of us raiding at level 70 post 3.0?

I haven't run the numbers on the level70 spells but since the scaling is the same i'd guess 29 energy mangle > shred even at level70 - provided you have RnT for FB.

Edit: Ok, i realize that at lvl70 you can't really take a spec that would allow imp mangle and RnT without sacrificing more important dps talents, so mangle spam is not an option at lvl70.

@tangedyn: don't you factor in FB in your simulation ? I reckon with manglespam you'd have so much CPs you can't spend them all on SR and Rip.

Salex · 10/03/08, 2:45 PM

Originally Posted by tangedyn

You can try out the simulator yourself, configure your stats and talents.
I'm working on making the strategy configurable too, so you can remove Rake and see the effects if you like

Can I recommend using lua? There are modules for plugging a lua interpreter into Java (and any other lang for that matter).

If it is in lua, then it would be quite easy to refine a strat in the simulator and then copy and paste it into a in-game display mod.

◊ Lord BEEF · 10/03/08, 2:57 PM

Originally Posted by nightcrowler

T7.10 level gear (only level 200 and 203 items). A full stacked raid with 10% ap buff working. All the possible consumable, the best in slot enchants, epic gems (matching socket bonuses), all the "minor" buffs like heroism, devotion aura, drums and so on.(no blocked value) is 576 so the tps is 795.

Drums are dead now basically, they no longer effect level 80 characters and there are no new versions for level 80 characters.

tangedyn · 10/03/08, 3:11 PM

Originally Posted by Salex

Can I recommend using lua? There are modules for plugging a lua interpreter into Java (and any other lang for that matter).

If it is in lua, then it would be quite easy to refine a strat in the simulator and then copy and paste it into a in-game display mod.

Bad news, I just found that any interpreted module will be way too slow for the simulator.
Lua would probably have been possible, although I had Beanshell in mind and that was what I tried first, but it seems that any Interpreter would be too slow.

I'm looking into Janino -- an Embedded Java[TM] Compiler now

tangedyn · 10/03/08, 3:19 PM

Originally Posted by Malazaar

@tangedyn: don't you factor in FB in your simulation ? I reckon with manglespam you'd have so much CPs you can't spend them all on SR and Rip.

Yep, the Strategies that use Bite instead of Roar are available on the simulator, so you can try it out on the simulator.

The strategy may need to be tweaked a little to ensure Rake is always up before FBing, but even when I assume that any bleed is always up, I'm getting less DPS that the Rip based strategies.

BOHIC · 10/03/08, 3:19 PM

Originally Posted by Malazaar

I haven't run the numbers on the level70 spells but since the scaling is the same i'd guess 29 energy mangle > shred even at level70 - provided you have RnT for FB.

Edit: Ok, i realize that at lvl70 you can't really take a spec that would allow imp mangle and RnT without sacrificing more important dps talents, so mangle spam is not an option at lvl70.

@tangedyn: don't you factor in FB in your simulation ? I reckon with manglespam you'd have so much CPs you can't spend them all on SR and Rip.

If you want to be a cat that doesn't tank much or provide iLotP or IW, you end up 2 points short of maxing out King of the Jungle, Improved Mangle, and Rend and Tear. This is awfully close to what you can get at 80.

Selfish level 70 cat

kalbear · 10/03/08, 3:20 PM

If you are interested in the Mangle Spam vs Shred, these are my numbers:
Assuming all talents, 5000 AP, 30% crit, 4% hit, 2.5% expertise, no haste, 30% dr from armor, 2xT6, rip and mangle glyphs, no berserk/tigers fury

I'm not sure what this is actually trying to simulate. 5000 AP is way too low at lvl 80, 30% crit is way too low at any level, 2.5% expertise is pretty low no matter what (either with lvl 70 using primal precision and shard of contempt), no haste is a bit wrong given what raid buffs exist (like 10% from windfury), and no tiger's fury is insane - that's missing 60 energy every 30 seconds.

Malazaar · 10/03/08, 3:33 PM

Originally Posted by BOHIC

If you want to be a cat that doesn't tank much or provide iLotP or IW, you end up 2 points short of maxing out King of the Jungle, Improved Mangle, and Rend and Tear. This is awfully close to what you can get at 80.

Selfish level 70 cat

2 points in King of the Jungle are way more dps than imp Mangle or Rend and Tear, that was what i meant with "without missing more important dps talents".

BOHIC · 10/03/08, 3:48 PM

Originally Posted by Malazaar

2 points in King of the Jungle are way more dps than imp Mangle or Rend and Tear, that was what i meant with "without missing more important dps talents".

Yup, makes sense. And since Mangle spam won't be an option then, I assume that Rend and Tear gets maxed along with King of the Jungle while only one point goes into Improved Mangle.

Revised selfish level 70 cat

teiglin · 10/03/08, 4:02 PM

Originally Posted by BOHIC

Yup, makes sense. And since Mangle spam won't be an option then, I assume that Rend and Tear gets maxed along with King of the Jungle while only one point goes into Improved Mangle.

Revised selfish level 70 cat

I haven't seen convincing lv70 numbers, but since 2t6 talented mangle is at least competitive at 80, and since 4t6 increases the relative value of mangle spam over shred--increased finisher damage means combo points are more valuable--I suspect 3/5 RnT with 3/3 imp mangle and 3/3 KotJ using mangle spam will outperform shred with 5/5 RnT. You do lose 20% crit on FB, but you will have more FBs since you get over 40% more combo points. Although you're probably using Raven Goddess anyway, idol of terror will handily outperform everbloom idol as well.

edit: I forgot about clearcasting when comparing cp generation. Suppose you get one clearcasting proc every 12s, on which you shred whether primary nuke is mangle or shred. During that time, you get ~144 energy (no 2t4, which complicates things but favors mangle spam, including fraction of KotJ energy), which is 4.97 mangles 3.43 shreds. Add the clearcasting proc and you have 5.97 cp generators with mangle spam or 4.43 cp generators with shred spam. So you really only get ~35% more cps with mangle spam, not 44%.

Also, with mangle spam, you can drop shredding attacks and get some utility like iLotP, Brutal Impact, or Nurturing Instincts.

Mijae · 10/03/08, 5:22 PM

Originally Posted by tangedyn

If you are interested in the Mangle Spam vs Shred, these are my numbers:
Assuming all talents, 5000 AP, 30% crit, 4% hit, 2.5% expertise, no haste, 30% dr from armor, 2xT6, rip and mangle glyphs, no berserk/tigers fury

Roar/Rip/Rake/MangleSpam strategy gives 1720.42 +/- 0.52 dps:
1. If Savage Roar is down and CP > 0, perform Savage Roar
2. If CP = 5, perform Rip
3. If Rake is down, perform Rake
4. Mangle

Roar/Rip/Rake/Mangle/Shred gives 1699.58 +/- 0.59 dps:
1. If Savage Roar is down and CP > 0, perform Savage Roar
2. If CP = 5, perform Rip
3. If Rake is down, perform Rake
4. If Mangle is down, perform Mangle
5. Shred

You can try out the simulator yourself, configure your stats and talents.
I'm working on making the strategy configurable too, so you can remove Rake and see the effects if you like

I really don't understand how these numbers are possible. Shred with RnT and SA has a higher DPE than Mangle with Imp Mangle and 2t6. The gap becomes even larger with better gear. The only reason to switch to Mangle is for faster CP generation. With the glyph and 2t7, Rip lasts 19 seconds (hopefully 20 if they fix the bonus). For a SR/Rip rotation (given above) we'll have plenty of CP to keep both up 100%. With more realistic crit and OoC proc rates I don't see us running short on CP using Shred with an SR/Rip/FB cycle either.

Perhaps the problem is possibly low estimates for crit/OoC and high DR. The lack of Tiger's Fury is pretty large and does this include the 2t7 bonus?

The issue really comes down to just how much dps you are willing to sacrifice to keep a hybrid spec over a specialized one. For high progression min/max guilds the answer is clear. For more casual guilds, losing a hundreds of dps and having weaker tanking utility might be acceptable over swapping in optimized characters.