Malazaar

The difference between 29 Energy Mangle and RnT Shred is really small (like 1-2%). The addional CP generation is worth quite a lot when spend on FB.

If you calculate the difference in CP generation and add a fraction of FB to mangle's DPE, it's quite a bit higher than shred's.

 

kalbear

Right, but CP speed doesn't matter if it's wasted. The question is only whether or not you get enough CP at a time to do your cycle. If you're basing your cycle around a 34-second SR cycle, it's looking increasingly like CP generation isn't really worth it. It might be for a shorter cycle, but I'm a bit skeptical.

 

Borvenge

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Druid -> Talent Calculator

This is the level 80 spec I am considering so I can can tank or dps well, as the circumstances require, both in 5-mans and raids. I welcome any advice regarding this spec. Specifically, I have a question regarding taking RnT vs NS/MS. It seems that only parts of RnT are useful depending on what you are doing:

20% Maul dmg is useful only if tanking. Does the 4% added dmg from NS/MS equate to more, less, or a similar amount of damage/threat?

The 20% shred dmg is useful only if dpsing in a group or raid. Does the 4% crit from NS/MS equate to more, less, or a similar amount of dps?

The 50% crit chance for FB is only good for soloing or in groups when the mob is nearly dead. It seems to me that the 4% crit from NS/MS would be better in this circumstance. Is that accurate?

Basically, I'm trying to figure out where it is better to spend the 5 talent points. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

Valerian

I asked this before, but has anyone looked at lower CP FBs? Finding the threshold on where FB is superior to mangle/shred may allow non maxed FBs to still be used which might be able to fit into the cycle. For that matter non-maxed rips might work too if it smoothes things out more (and 5 pt FBs turn out to be superior).

 

kalbear

Maul is somewhere between 50 and 60% of total threat output. So you can figure that RnT is going to be around a 10% increase in threat. NS/MS doesn't come close.
In general, shred is going to be around 35-40% of your total damage based on cycles now. In WotLK, with the addition of rake and the buffing of mangle, I would imagine it's going to be a bit less. Even at 30% of your damage though, an increase of 20% to mangle is 6% more damage, compared to 4% more crits - which at best is 4.4% more damage (and that's with having a 0% crit rate).

No, it's not. FB appears to be a better finisher at higher AP (it scales better with AP than rip does when you can guarantee a crit) assuming you have raid-level debuffs of armor of the boss. With the ability to time FB hits when you have exactly the right energy the wasted energy is not as much of a problem. Early on rip will beat out FB, but I believe that with high crit rates and AP FB will be the finisher of choice.

 

Malazaar

FB is better than a 29 energy Mangle DPE-wise even at 2 CP (that is a lvl80 with 50% crit and FB done at 38 energy).

 

Borvenge

Thank you, kalbear. With RnT, does Feral Agression become a worthwhile talent? Are there any other recommendations you would make about the spec I posted? I have revised it here with RnT instead of NS/MS:

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Druid -> Talent Calculator

 

kalbear

Feral Aggression appears to be pretty good as a talent if you're using FB; I'm assuming that's also in use. At least for cats; for bears there's just too many other things to get, and it should only be gotten if you don't have imp demo shout in your raid.

With the change to infinite swipes I'd try very hard to get feral instincts into the build if you'll be tanking at all. Having the ability to hold AOE packs is going to be useful in any number of places but especially when you're doing 5-mans. At this point I'd probably ditch IW unless it's a requirement for your raid.

 

seminarca

New build:
Servers aren't back up to verify any of this.

 

Duilliath

Wait... what ? Have they gone completely mental ? First they state that on Magic AoE encounters Druids mitigate too much damage (the "Here Be Dragons"-type fights) and then they buff the no.1 culprit responsible for that one ?

An thenn tehy wuz al ded. Srsly. (Exodus 1)

 

seminarca

This is just what MMO Champion has posted, and I wouldn't necessarily trust it (especially since they've botched PotP changes recently). I'd wait until we can log in and see it in game.

 

◊ Regen

Trust it. People are going through the new build and posting changes on wotlkwiki.info right now.

 

Kachaka

This is the way I am Planning to do it based on current data

I think its a nice mix with most of the bases covered.

 

kameelyan

Why do I see so many people getting 2/2 iMotW? Leave that to your tree druids, those two points can better be spent elsewhere. Yea, in 5 man's you won't have it, but it isn't going to make/break the group.

After much review from everyone, I think this is going to be my hybrid spec when I hit 80 for offtanking. The build focuses mostly on tanking, but still gets the needed dps talents for when you won't be tanking:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft


As raiding progresses, I'll probably switch to this. Build that provides higher dps mainly through king of the jungle but loss of dodge, which we can hopefully make up for through itemization.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Guess it'll just all depend on what role your guild needs you for, but I believe these builds will suit me fine.

 

Jone

Where else would you spend them? Since they broke powershifting, Furor is a very weak PvE talent. Might as well get the better Mark and use enrage if Furor doesn't proc.

 

Tappin

People are taking 2/2 MotW because furor is so bad outside of pvp. At the very least, you can afford to go 4/5 furor. Remember that if you shift to cat with 80 energy and wait for a GCD, you'll have 95 energy. That last point of furor gives you 5 energy maybe 0-1 times per fight depending on how often you spend 10+ seconds out of cat form? If you spend 0-8 seconds, it really doesn't save you any energy. It doesn't take long to rebirth or innervate. You're pretty much gaining that energy only when you go from tanking to dps or spending an unusual amount of time doing tranquility or healing?

The last 2 points will give you 25 extra energy when you spend more than 10 seconds out of cat form.

Also remember that gift is getting a lot better at 80. If you don't have a resto druid around, +14 to all stats, 300 armor, and 21 to all resists isn't great, but it's arguably better than 40% chance at 10 rage and 25 extra energy in situations where you've been out of cat form over 10 seconds.

 

Deathwing

Did everyone forget the bear side of Furor? Great talent for getting some rage before a pull(if you're below 10), or ensuring you have some rage to feral charge your target after breaking a root/snare.

 

Krag

With 3/5 Furor you'd just have to do an extra shifts to bear or two on occasion before a pull. Having rage after breaking root or snare might be a bigger problem, but they just upped the Growl range to 20y which will lessen the impact.

It might take a little to get used to playing in 5-mans without Furor at all as bear but for main tanking it shouldn't make a difference. The cat side of Furor just seems really weak if you aren't into PvP as a feral.

 

Kachaka

Personally I took imp Mark because of the whole rage/dodge mechanic.

I know that it will take more agility per point to get the dodge back to current marks, but thats a ton of rage right there, not to mention swipe crits and more. Frankly I think rage starvation will mostly be a thing of single mob tanking, and even then its not that much of a hit.

I would rather have the extra edge in stats and armour now. But thats just me. I can see the other point of view, but I must say with the new swipe I plan on a lot less CC lol, of course it helps that I have a Pocket healer who travels with me.

 

kalbear

I did say that Ghostcrawler was being totally sarcastic. For starters, bears don't mitigate close the amount of damage that death knights do on magic damage.

 

Soultrigger

Similare talent for rogues got buffed to 30%, it is just a side effect. But probably they will change that talent for us later on.

 

kalbear

I doubt it. It's not that big a deal if a bear tank takes a bit less AOE damage on some of the fights, especially given other types of tanks and what they take. The magic damage wasn't the problem; the problem was having 42k armor compared to 26k for plate wearers.

 

david0925

Having 37k armor while still maintaining 42% (assuming additive) or 39% magic reduction is pretty respectable. The old PI was fine in terms of mitigation, but this version seems pretty scary. While the AoE aura damage mitigation isn't a big deal, damage taken from frontal cone (since it's still aoe) will be.

Maniq is my hero

 

Toranshalur

Blue post just stated the new predatory instincts only works in cat form.

mmo-champion blue tracker

 

david0925

Does that apply to the crit damage bonus as well? If it does that's another 3 points that can be skipped by people going pure bear oriented talent builds?

I'm obviously not happy about getting nerfed, but I don't think this is too extreme in terms of balancing.

I will be a little concerned if PI's crit damage doesn't work in bear form since Prot warrior's threat/dmg is comparable to ours partially due to Impale.

Maniq is my hero