Bazookatooth

I think the main reason is because Blizzard has stated multiple times in this beta that they want off-spec tanking classes to still be able to tank 5 mans, even if sub-optimally. An off spec druid may be the farthest 'instance ready' tank of all 4 classes, but an off-spec druid without dire bear form simply cannot tank.

 

• Caniki

I posted something in the US Beta druid forums. My idea is less complicated - just let us have costumes that persist in forms. It works just fine for the Ashtongue Cowl.

 

Calen

The reason it 'works' for the Ashtongue Cowl is that the item is limited to use in TK; there is certainly no technical limitation of having working costumes that remain present across all forms - as Vaccine points out, it's about maintaining PvP balance. According to the ancient (and unfindable) blue posts that preceded the noggenfogger nerf, it is too confusing in world/BG/arena PvP for druids to have their forms identified through mana/rage/energy bars, not visually, and required a general nerf on druids in costumes.

Personally I found the Ashtongue Cowl mildly confusing given all the time that has passed from the good old skeledruid pvping - probably spent half that particular Al'ar fight double checking that I was indeed in the form required. The saddest thing about it was that the feral hitbox has never been as effectively fixed as it was by the humanoid costumes, I could swear it was improved by it while running down spawns for A'lar. Might have been nostalgia I suppose.

It always seemed like a ridiculous argument; "I can't tell what stance a warrior is in, and it can affect my style of attack!?1!" There are any number of spec dependent pvp abilities that can't be determined by looking at an opponent, but I can only presume that somehow druids become enormously more effective and dangerous when disguised.

Some kind of priority system to allow druids to complete quests that include disguises is something that should have been included immediately after the noggenfogger/disguise change, but then (like now) I suspect there are higher priorities for developer time.

 

Duilliath

Back in the day, people just felt it was a cheap cop out by Blizzard with regards to a fix to the 'Feral Range Bug' when they disabled Noggenfogger and gave that excuse.

The solution really doesn't have to be all that difficult though, and I think the above suggestions go a bit too far.
Simply have costumes apply when in Caster form, and fade when you shift. When you shift back out to Caster form, the costume applies again.

An thenn tehy wuz al ded. Srsly. (Exodus 1)

 

Oiysters

Given the state of feral pvp in TBC, this whole line of reasoning has been proven wrong. The arena statistics speak for themselves, and this very old nerf should be reversed.

 

Coldturkey

This seems like a terrible excuse now because its a lot easier to tell what form a druid is in (besides the energy/rage/mana argument) because each form shows up as a buff with a unique icon. Seeing everyone's buff/debuffs wasn't around during the time of the nerf but now its a lot easier to tell what a player has. I can't really figure out why it's so important that we stay in form skins when you think about how other multi-spec classes are identified. If a shaman has 7k mana, you know he's enhancement even without being able to see any armor or weapons. If you see a druid with lotp you know he's feral and the attack animations (and movement speed) will easily identify what form they are in. I personally support the use of deviates in forms and hope they reverse this due to more recent changes in player buffs.

 

tangedyn

Wowcatsim 0.10.2 released

* New API added: status.getSimTimer()
* Changed default stats to match Toskk's calculator
* Writes combat log to debug.log file
* Added Nightcrowler's prefered strategy (4-SR/5-Rip/5-FB)
* Modified preset strategies for slight DPS increase (wait until 90 energy to Shred / Mangle Spam)
* Some fixes to Rip and Ferocious Bite calculations

@Nightcrowler
I've not added 2xT7 bonus to my simulation yet. I don't quite understand the 3 second extension to Rip though.. since Rip ticks every 2 seconds. Does it give 1 or 2 more ticks?

I've tried your 4-SR/5-Rip/5-FB cycle on my simulator, and it's not giving me results as good as my best preset. Not sure if I've written the cycle code correctly but it seems fine from the combat log. I believe your cycle is probably designed for a particular gear level, my stat settings are probably too low to use your cycle well.

Using my preset that only does SR and Rip, I'm getting some wasted energy, and I suspect the problem will get worse as gear gets better and when I add in Berserk and Tiger's Fury to the simulator, so I'll probably have to look into tweaking a strategy to spend excess energy into FB.

 

Malazaar

FB isn't really much weaker than Rip is (at higher gear levels it seems actually superior) so i guess it's more important to use your CPs and energy optimal than the choice of your finisher.

As long as Rip is superior it should be used as the primary (damage) finisher but whenever you have full CP and don't need to refresh SR anytime soon, use Rip when it's down and FB if Rip is still active.

You will most likely not get a high Rip uptime this way (as nightcrowler's simulation indicates) but due to the small difference between Rip and FB and better CP/energy usage your total damage might increase.

Also, it might be worth using 4 CP finishers (especially at high crit rates) so you don't waste CP on a crit at 4cp.

Tiger's Fury and Berserk should be used on cooldown, wait for 90 energy before using berserk though. If possible, tiger's fury should be used right before berserk (that way, more yellow hits get the TF benefit). Also, short term damage buffs, like trinkets, should be used in that timespan.

 

Khruschev

I can't say that it completely fixed the problem, but having a humanoid costume definitely helped with feral hitbox issues.

I hope when Blizzard finally gets around to giving us updated and alternative graphics for our forms, they'll include some more anthropomorphic options-- like a Worgen or "werecat" (think Halazzi) graphic. I'm tired of the feral hitbox problem and of looking like a level 5 trash mob; Blizzard could fix both issues at once.

 

tlbj6142

I thought Blizzard has recently (for 3.0) changed the targeting mechanics such that the "hit box issue", is no longer an issue. I haven't played much PvP on the PTR, so I can't tell if it has been fixed. There was a blue post on it months ago.

Here's the post.

 

Calen

In regard to the hitbox issues, it's really about where the hit box is centered on the model - for creatures like the Hydra in BT (with the absurdly small hitbox) you kind of have to jam yourself halfway through their model to be in range for specials, which is clearly not game breaking, but unintuitive, and annoying. For PvP, even excluding synch issues, and positioning requirements, it's kind of awkward to have to follow a target around, while actually being stuck partially through them (visually, ahead of them) to meet the melee range requirement.

I have no real experience with other melee classess, so I can't really comment on the specials versus white attacks, beyond that I find it really strange that different melee attacks would have variable ranges.

From Koraa's Post
That's quite a quote coming from a developer; acknowledging they've had internal bug reports and documents since 2004, but in the same sentence stating that it hasn't been 'Ignored' or 'not understood'. Surely 4 years is long enough to resolve an well understood bug that has not been ignored?

Anyways, I think the devs and anyone even mildly interested could find many videos, rants and pleas regarding the range issues, but like skins and costumes, there are bigger fish to fry for the druid class.

Edit: Aqueous Lords are not the mobs I was looking for.

 

ranma

I would take that blue post as a big grain of salt. It is not the first time or even second time that blizzard claimed they fixed the cat hit box issue, and had been proven false by varies players and experiments.

Furthermore, the feral model affects not only PvP, it affects PvE as well. To tank bosses with back against walls in bear form is pain. It is hard to see what the boss is doing or what your raid members are doing because most of views are blocked by the big fat bear model. I remember that I had no such problems in skeleton form when nogg potions were not nerfed.

 

tlbj6142

I don't think that issue is addressed by the blue post. The issue they mentioned is one I see all the time in BG PvP and have never seen in PvE. The case where you are running on top of a toon and can't hit it at all. In that case it is easy to see how latency would be a major issue, made worst by the fact that 2 players are involved, so the latency could be doubled (if not more). Whereas in PvE, the latency issue isn't as severe given that mobs are typically stationary while you are attacking them and only your latency is an issue.

How can I replicate the hit box issue in PvE?

 

ranma

What I said is feral model affects pve, not hit box issue affects pve.

I meant the view-blocking bear rear when tanking. And both problems could be simply removed by unnerfing costume in forms.

 

Vand1

If you want a good PvE example of a hit box that is disproportionately small, take another look at the Temporus (second BM boss) fight. I just did it my very first time as melee DPS (every other time has either been tanking or as a ranged DPS). I was astonished at how I would basically have to stand in the middle of the visible red targeting circle to not be out of range. My DPS was substantially lower on that fight for that reason, since the tank did not keep him totally still.

And I totally agree on the large size of the bear ass too often blocking the view of a boss, especially when a terrain feature prevents you from zooming out.

 

Janraea

Sigh. I too miss the days of Atkins-form tanking. In general, though they haven't fixed the hitbox problem itself, feral swiftness mitigates the problem a lot (which I believe was one of the stated intentions for the talent). If it works indoors now, I wouldn't think there'd be a big problem anymore..

I would love a minor glyph that cuts your size in half, or some such.

 

Macevaland

Hey,

I just found a link of guild using some beta version of WWS for WotLK.
Here is the link:

ER WotLK Beta Raid History

Apparently feral druids are doing pretty well, but the kings of DPS (at least on this guild) seem to be a DeathKnight, and a few Retribution pallies. I guess that they need to nerf Deathknights, the difference is very big.

The highest DPS I found for a feral druid was around 4900 (pretty close to some of the simulations I've seen here). But apparently this druid is not using rake on his rotation. This is the link for that fight:

Loatheb

I don't know how precise is this beta version of WWS, but I like some of the things I'm seeing there (Ferocious Bite crits for 12,000!)

 

nightcrowler

Well in that report FB crits for 20k not 12k... As for rake, it's a new things, the good things is that the dps from simulation and his dps are comparable (on a side note it seems he is using a 4SR/5RIP/5FB cycle)

 

a civilian

You're looking at a Thaddius fight, and that's presumably due to Polarity Shift with matching charges.

Loatheb isn't a good damage test either, though, due to Fungal Creep.

 

tangedyn

That's Loatheb... where Fungal Bloom is in play.
You should generally look only for Patchwerk fights for DPS comparisons.

 

Snarley

Has anyone created macros to optimize the use of the new TF? Or will the old powershifting macros (slightly modified) do the trick?

For Mangle:
#showtooltip
/run local f="Cat Form";f=GetSpellCooldown(f)>0 or UnitMana('player')>25 or not IsUsableSpell(f) or CancelPlayerBuff(f) end
/cast [form] Mangle (Cat)()
/stopmacro [form]
/cast Tiger's Fury

For Shred:
#showtooltip
/run local f="Cat Form";f=GetSpellCooldown(f)>0 or UnitMana('player')>25 or not IsUsableSpell(f) or GetComboPoints()>3 or CancelPlayerBuff(f) end
/cast [form] Shred
/stopmacro [form]
/cast Tiger's Fury

Can anyone A) Correct me if my macros are messed up B) Test or confirm that they work in beta?

Currently at work and cant test on the PTR. Cat bar there (and bear to a much lesser extent) is driving me nuts with how many extra things I have to pay attention to / keep up and use on just about every cool down.

 

Neddie

I wish there were some clarity on Blizzard's intentions for tanking. Do they want any type of druid to be able to tank a 5-man, or any type of feral druid? Do they want any type of paladin to be able to tank a 5-man, or only prot? prot and ret? Are death knights supposed to be similar to warriors in that there's one tree that's meant for raid tanking, and two that can be used for 5-man tanking? Is a cat-specced feral druid supposed to be a viable off-tank in a 25-man raid, or would you want true raid-tank-specced classes to do that? Are prot warriors and prot paladins supposed to be good at anything other than tanking? i.e. if I'm in a 25-man raid as a bear-specced feral druid and there's a prot-specced warrior there, could he DPS while I tank, or does it make sense for him to tank because he's useless doing anything else?

They've said a number of times that they want DKs, druids, paladins and warriors to all be eligible for the main-tank job, but I haven't seen clarification on some of those questions. If a guild did pick a bear-specced feral druid as the main tank, would there be any room for a prot-specced warrior or paladin? In the past if you had a prot warrior and a feral druid in the raid, both equally skilled, both equally geared, and you had a boss that didn't favor either, but required only one tank, the druid would end up DPSing, not because the fight was tanked better by a warrior, but because the warrior wasn't all that useful if he wasn't tanking. I hope that in balancing things so that any class can tank, they also balanced things so that when they're not tanking all classes can do something else useful.

If anybody knows of any blue posts where they explain their vision for tanking I'd love to see them. I've been looking and aside from the basic questions, I haven't seen answers to those.

 

Mijae

This only works for powershifting. Those macros will leave you in caster form if you don't meet the requirements.

Feral DruidStats spreadsheet
v3.2.0.0.xls - updated 8/4/2009

 

Snarley

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Dear Devs; want prot pvp to be viable?

Wall of text concerning tanking. They have also stated that their "vision" is for people to take skilled players over class specific buffs. IE you couldnt effectively raid without blessing of salvation, so in a 25 man raid you had to have at LEAST one paladin to provide the agro reduction. Now it is baked in, they are moving towards a design of play with the people you like and not the people you absolutely have to bring because they bring xyz buff. So yes, you should be able to bring multiple tanks of the same class or different class and still be effective in a 25 man raid setting.


@ Mijae

Are there any effective macros that can roll tigers fury into a button you already mash? Assuming it is always the right thing to do when you are below x amount of energy (regardless of global cooldown).

 

Selmarix

You can't make the macro decide depending on energy as there is no macro conditional for energy amount.

An explanation:
Conditional macros and UI code were used a lot in the past. So much that mashing one button was enough to do complex things using those addons. The original decursive allowed you to decurse just by pressing the decursive button again and again. The addon checked the raid for debuffs and used the right dispel automatically. Other addons did the same for healing.
Blizzard did not like that. You were supposed to play the game, not let addons play it for you.
So they removed the possibility to use abilities in combat from addons. Instead you can only bind a certain action to a certain button with a specific target (which can be currently selected target and similar though).
Macros can still start script code, but that code cannot actually use anything. You can only use /cast and similar commands directly in the macro which does not allow "if" or similar general constructs.
Then they slowly readded some convenience conditionals to macros but those cannot depend on things like energy amount.

The loophole that allowed the powershifting macros is that the script command to cancel a buff still works even in combat. And cancelling the buff for a form makes you leave that form. So the script part can actually use an ability: shapeshifting to caster and it can do that depending on elaborate conditions.
That alone would not help you much. But there are macro conditionals to check which form you are in. So you can use different abilities in the macro depending on if the script code decided to leave the form or not.

I am sure Blizzard will remove the possibility for script code to cancel buffs in combat at some time. But even while it still works, you can only use that for decisions that involve leaving cat form (or whatever other form).