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09/07/08, 3:23 PM
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#1666
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Piston Honda
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I agree that Imp LOTP is usually underrated--I have a hard time considering giving it up. The problem is, what do we give up to keep it? Threat? Rage? Avoidance? Cat viability?
I'd say the core bear talents are:
Ferocity (5)
Naturalist + OOC (11)
Thick Hide (3)
Feral Instinct (3)
Sharpened Claws, Primal Fury, and Primal Precision (10) (really too valuable to rage and threat gen to give up)
Feral Charge (1) (again, too much utility to give up; I use it constantly in raids as it is)
Savage Fury (2)
Predatory Strikes + Heart of the Wild (8)
Survival of the Fittest (3)
LOTP (1)
Mother Bear (3)
Mangle + Imp. Mangle (4)
Berserk (1)
That's 55 points total, leaving 16. Even in a purely bear spec, we have to choose between:
Feral Faerie Fire (1) (I suppose I can always pull with moonfire, but I'd have a hard time giving FFF up, and I'd need a boomkin in my raid to even consider it)
Feral Aggression (5)
Imp LOTP (2)
Infected Wounds (3)
Feral Swiftness (2)
Natural Reaction (3)
Shredding Attacks (2)
Primal Tenacity (3)
Predatory Instincts (5)
Rend and Tear (5)
King of the Jungle (3)
Intensity (3)
Master Shapeshifter (5)
That's 42 points I'd consider just for bear, with only 16 available.
I suppose one could rely on all the cat stats loaded on our gear currently to provide us with good rage and threat, and therefore dump entirely the great rage/threat management talents like Rend and Tear, Shredding Attacks, King of the Jungle, Intensity, Master Shapeshifter, and Predatory Instincts--which ends up with the same it'd-be-nice-but abandonment of Primal Tenacity that I made in BC, etc.--but without any cat viability whatsoever, when currently I can both tank and DPS quite well.
I feel that the feral tree still needs to be streamlined a bit. I understand the desire to make room for a "bear spec" and a "cat spec" in order to make cat DPS viable without totally overpowering bear tanking, etc., but at the moment there are too many bear-oriented talents to choose from.
Last edited by foxglove : 09/07/08 at 4:25 PM.
Reason: forgot Feral Instinct; also, I can't add
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09/07/08, 3:24 PM
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#1667
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Brute
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Edit: posted didn't give up savage fury, he gave up shredding attacks. My fault.
I don't understand the 5 points in rend and tear for the tanking build. If it's for the maul threat, you get 10% more to mauls for 5 talent points versus getting 20% more to mauls and mangles for 2 points for savage fury. Maybe it's for the cat portion and you plan to mix in FBs?
Last edited by Tappin : 09/07/08 at 4:00 PM.
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09/07/08, 3:34 PM
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#1668
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Tappin
I don't understand the 5 points in rend and tear for the tanking build. If it's for the maul threat, you get 10% more to mauls for 5 talent points versus getting 20% more to mauls and mangles for 2 points for savage fury. Maybe it's for the cat portion and you plan to mix in FBs?
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I wouldn't give up Savage Fury for Rend and Tear, but it's still a great threat talent, and the 10% shred damage hurts to pass up if one ever wants to be DPSing.
Oh, regarding stuns and dying--Corrupting Strike on Kalecgos and the Abominations on Hyjal trash are two places stuns have killed me, even with liberal use of Free Action potions. It also used to happen plenty in heroics. Stunned = no dodge = roughly twice as much damage taken.
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Also, I'm not sure about primal tenacity for pve tanking. If you have instincts, I believe that covers ae stuns/fears and that the 2 don't stack (could be wrong, just something I read).
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Previously, your typical AOE fears (e.g., Archimonde, dragons since forever, etc.) didn't get a stacking bonus since Primal Tenacity gave you a chance to resist fears and Predatory Instincts gave you a chance to resist AOE. Primal Tenacity has now been changed so that it reduces the duration when feared, so theoretically it should stack with Predatory Instincts as a sort of companion talent. (Doesn't mean I'd necessarily take either when push came to shove, but I can see the value.)
Last edited by foxglove : 09/07/08 at 4:08 PM.
Reason: more on primal tenacity
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09/07/08, 3:41 PM
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#1669
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Tappin
I don't understand the 5 points in rend and tear for the tanking build. If it's for the maul threat, you get 10% more to mauls for 5 talent points versus getting 20% more to mauls and mangles for 2 points for savage fury. Maybe it's for the cat portion and you plan to mix in FBs?
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As a main tank the two primary concerns are maximizing survivability and maximizing threat. Yes 10% maul dmg is expensive for 5 talent points but its still a non trivial threat increase. As is +10% crit damage.
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09/07/08, 3:46 PM
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#1670
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Brute
As a main tank the two primary concerns are maximizing survivability and maximizing threat. Yes 10% maul dmg is expensive for 5 talent points but its still a non trivial threat increase. As is +10% crit damage.
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Aye, exactly. Those 10 talent points are a lot of the reason I feel there's just too many bear options at the moment. From our first heroics in blues, to Bloodboil, through Brutallus, threat has remained important.
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09/07/08, 3:58 PM
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#1671
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Brute
As a main tank the two primary concerns are maximizing survivability and maximizing threat. Yes 10% maul dmg is expensive for 5 talent points but its still a non trivial threat increase. As is +10% crit damage.
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Edit: sorry, you've skipped shredding, not savage fury. My fault.
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09/07/08, 3:59 PM
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#1672
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Von Kaiser
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You spend 7 points to get 30%
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09/07/08, 4:08 PM
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#1673
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Brute
As a main tank the two primary concerns are maximizing survivability and maximizing threat. Yes 10% maul dmg is expensive for 5 talent points but its still a non trivial threat increase. As is +10% crit damage.
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RnT: At best it's about a 3% increase in threat for 5 points. I'm not really sure that's worth it.
PI: This will provide around a similar benefit in threat, but at least it gives you a bit of AoE avoidance along with it.
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09/07/08, 4:20 PM
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#1674
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Pzychotix
RnT: At best it's about a 3% increase in threat for 5 points. I'm not really sure that's worth it.
PI: This will provide around a similar benefit in threat, but at least it gives you a bit of AoE avoidance along with it.
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It's worth noting here that Master Shapeshifter gives a reliable 4% threat increase for 5 points even in low-rage situations where Maul is left out of the cycle, and even in blues where our %crit will probably be low. So, if you've extra points in Feral (ha!) that you want to spend on threat, Master Shapeshifter is worth a look instead.
Last edited by foxglove : 09/07/08 at 4:30 PM.
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09/07/08, 4:31 PM
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#1675
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Lord BEEF
I see a lot of people leaving out improved leader of the pack in WLK and I think that's a terrible mistake. In sunwell it provides 2-4% of the entire raid's healing for two talent points. Now it effects all groups and not just the druid group, so that number should increase.
As a healer there's nothing I can spend points on that would increase the entire raid's healing by 4% for just two talent points.
I think it should be in every tanking build because it not only provides healing for you, it also heals a lot of raid members which means you get more attention in raid healing.
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Along these lines can someone in beta see if a druid with non-improved LotP overwrites the improved version. I was 2-boxing my roommates Recruit A Friend druid around yesterday and for some reason her druids version with no points spent in improved was taking precedence over mine with 2/2. I'm not sure if this is a known bug but it would be good to know if it is still the case in WotLK since the aura will be going raid wide and it would be nice to not have complicating issues. Similary after she went 1/2 iLotP her version was still the dominant one.
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09/07/08, 4:41 PM
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#1676
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by foxglove
It's worth noting here that Master Shapeshifter gives a reliable 4% threat increase for 5 points even in low-rage situations where Maul is left out of the cycle, and even in blues where our %crit will probably be low. So, if you've extra points in Feral (ha!) that you want to spend on threat, Master Shapeshifter is worth a look instead.
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It's somewhere less than 4%. We also gain threat from other things like the static modifier to lacerate and maul and rage gains. Similarly, it's less than 4% damage in cat form, because not all of our moves can crit and we have more than 0% crit to start with.
Personally, I can't seem to fit 16 points in resto in any tanking build I come up with.
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09/07/08, 4:57 PM
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#1677
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Tappin
It's somewhere less than 4%. We also gain threat from other things like the static modifier to lacerate and maul and rage gains. Similarly, it's less than 4% damage in cat form, because not all of our moves can crit and we have more than 0% crit to start with.
Personally, I can't seem to fit 16 points in resto in any tanking build I come up with.
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You're right, I'd discounted the static threat component of lacerate in particular, so it probably comes out closer to that 3% on the other two, though I still feel it will be higher (might be worth running the numbers to see exactly where it lands versus RnT and PI). I think all three talents can be considered in the same category, and it just depends what side effect you want to get out of those 5 points (AOE avoidance? Less mana-intensive form-switching? The best cat raid DPS alongside?); what your other talents are; which cycle you are using (Mauls or no? Lacerate or Swipe?); and on how good your gear is. The higher your crit is, for example, the more valuable PI is compared to MS; and if you don't have shredding attacks, I suspect RnT's cat component is weak since (I think) a mangle-spamming cycle would honestly be more DPS.
Unfortunately, I keep ending up with bear builds that have none of the three.
Last edited by foxglove : 09/07/08 at 5:08 PM.
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09/07/08, 6:02 PM
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#1679
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Maeltne
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Yes, it's nice to see a sure upgrade for at least one of our T6-level items.
I thought it would be good to consider the different debuff categories, and which we should be expected to provide in a raid (for purposes of talent budgeting). Here are the categories that include Feral debuffs, from MMO Champion:
- Armor Debuff (Minor): Faerie Fire, Sting (Hunter pet), Curse of Recklessness. Ideally, a moonkin will provide this, since their version is a 2-for-1. CoR nerfs a lock's DPS and has the icky side effect of buffing the boss. As for Sting, I guess that depends how many hunters end up choosing wasps... We may or may not need to provide this one.
- Melee Critical Strike Chance Buff: Leader of the Pack, Rampage. Our version is better. Rampage won't have 100% uptime and doesn't have the healing side effect of iLotP (if we spec for it).
- Bleed Damage Increase Debuff: Mangle, Trauma. Since mangle is integral to our tank cycle, we'll be providing it there. On the other hand, I see some occasions of happy shred-spamming for kitties if there happens to be an Arms warrior around. Edit: Okay, that's if it actually buffs Shred.
- Melee Attack Speed Slow Debuff: Icy Touch, Infected Wounds, Judgements of the Just, Thunderclap. Each tank class has an equivalent, but only the Feral and Paladin versions come from talents. The pally version only costs 2 points. At the moment, IW is actually the best of the lot, but I'm betting they will all be normalized. Also, pallies and ferals don't have to use any extra GCD or mana-rage-stuff to apply IW (and we can apply it even while DPSing), but DKs and warriors do.
- Attack Power Debuff: Demoralizing Roar, Curse of Weakness, Demoralizing Shout. Again, using Curse of Weakness nerfs a lock's DPS. I assume the effects of all three will be normalized. Whether or not we're responsible here probably depends on whether or not we're the only tank in the neighborhood.
Based on this, I'm considering skipping Feral Aggression as I did in BC--and also considering whether, for the good of the raid, I should spec IW even in my cat spec.
Last edited by foxglove : 09/07/08 at 7:51 PM.
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09/07/08, 6:18 PM
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#1680
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by foxglove
- Bleed Damage Increase Debuff: Mangle, Trauma. Since mangle is integral to our tank cycle, we'll be providing it there. On the other hand, I see some occasions of happy shred-spamming for kitties if there happens to be an Arms warrior around.
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According to wowhead, the Mangle (cat - bear is the same except for damage differences) debuff reads
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Mangle the target for 160% normal damage plus 507.2 and causes the target to take 30% additional damage from Maul, Shred, and bleed effects for 12 sec.
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while the Trauma debuff reads
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Your normal melee critical strikes increase the effectiveness of Bleed effects on the target by 30% for 15 sec.
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Which means cat druids - regardless of Trauma - will still need to be applying Mangle to get the Shred bonus.
(unless someone in beta can confirm that Trauma boosts Shred as well)
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