Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 112

Snarley · 10/07/08, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Selmarix

You can't make the macro decide depending on energy as there is no macro conditional for energy amount.

An explanation:
Conditional macros and UI code were used a lot in the past. So much that mashing one button was enough to do complex things using those addons. The original decursive allowed you to decurse just by pressing the decursive button again and again. The addon checked the raid for debuffs and used the right dispel automatically. Other addons did the same for healing.
Blizzard did not like that. You were supposed to play the game, not let addons play it for you.
So they removed the possibility to use abilities in combat from addons. Instead you can only bind a certain action to a certain button with a specific target (which can be currently selected target and similar though).
Macros can still start script code, but that code cannot actually use anything. You can only use /cast and similar commands directly in the macro which does not allow "if" or similar general constructs.
Then they slowly readded some convenience conditionals to macros but those cannot depend on things like energy amount.

The loophole that allowed the powershifting macros is that the script command to cancel a buff still works even in combat. And cancelling the buff for a form makes you leave that form. So the script part can actually use an ability: shapeshifting to caster and it can do that depending on elaborate conditions.
That alone would not help you much. But there are macro conditionals to check which form you are in. So you can use different abilities in the macro depending on if the script code decided to leave the form or not.

I am sure Blizzard will remove the possibility for script code to cancel buffs in combat at some time. But even while it still works, you can only use that for decisions that involve leaving cat form (or whatever other form).

So in short, get used to managing Tigers Fury, Berserk, Rake, Rip, Ferocious Bite, Shred, and Mangle because even if it works now in some crazy "back door" type fashion, according to blizzard it should not be used in such a fashion to automate combat abilities.

Thank you very much for the elaborate explanation and unfortunately closing that door.

*edit* as a side note, if you are like me and have trouble remembering to use abilities as soon as possible after cooldowns are over, Jims cooldown pulse (hasn’t been updated in quite some time), OmniCC, and cooldown timers all have the capability to "pulse" icons across your screen when abilities like tigers fury, berserk, or whatever else you may need are off cooldown.

Sadirin · 10/07/08, 11:27 AM

Powershifting macros were able to check for energy amount and shift you according to a pre-set amount of energy. Since Tigers Furor does not affect GCD you could write an macro like:

/autoattack
/cast shred
/cast Tigers Furor

Since you will always use mangle, shred and/or savage roar, no bonus energy from king of the jungle shoould be wasted. If beserk does not affect GCD you could even add this ability to the macro. However, because of the fear breaking effect of beserk I would only use a manuel trigger for it.

I would suggest that you put mangle and rake in one [modifier] macro and rip/savage roar into another one.

SYL

Snarley · 10/07/08, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Sadirin

Powershifting macros were able to check for energy amount and shift you according to a pre-set amount of energy. Since Tigers Furor does not affect GCD you could write an macro like:

/autoattack
/cast shred
/cast Tigers Furor

Since you will always use mangle, shred and/or savage roar, no bonus energy from king of the jungle shoould be wasted. If beserk does not affect GCD you could even add this ability to the macro. However, because of the fear breaking effect of beserk I would only use a manuel trigger for it

SYL

King of the Jungle causes Tigers Fury to return 60 energy and none of our abilities save an untalented shred or ravage actually cost that much. So you would still be effectively wasting 20/18 energy depending on which ability you used.

Sadirin · 10/07/08, 11:41 AM

Not really. Before you use shred you will use mangle, rake, bite or roar ... or you will wait for energy regeneration. So you should not loose any energy, except if you have to move during the battle.

Edit: Of couse this depends on how the macro is used. I hope that with using shred befor furor the energy cost from shred comes before the bonus energy from jungle.

tlbj6142 · 10/07/08, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Sadirin

I would suggest that you put mangle and rake in one [modifier] macro

Do you really need to use a modifier? Why not use a case sequence macro with an appropriate reset timer?

Sadirin · 10/07/08, 11:51 AM

Because rake is 9 seconds and mangle 12+6 seconds. And of course if you miss the sequence-macro ignores this.

Malazaar · 10/07/08, 11:51 AM

It would be pretty wasteful to use TF directly after an ability, as you waste at least 1 second of bonus damage time. 131 bonus damage is nothing to laugh about, it's an equivalent of over 1800 AP for abilites that benefit from it.

I don't think it is that hard to manually use a cooldown every 30 seconds. After all, we want our playstyle to involve some kind of skill, don't we ?

summlan · 10/07/08, 11:58 AM

I played around in flash with Nightcrowlers code for feraldps.
It seems like im doing way to much damage

Same stats as nightcrowler.
Raidbuffed AP: 9552

With SR up
Rake ticks for 2041
Rip ticks for 1720
Shred crits for 6546
Mangle crits for 5386

Shred and Mangle seems to be alright, but rake and rip?

Sadirin · 10/07/08, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Malazaar

I don't think it is that hard to manually use a cooldown every 30 seconds. After all, we want our playstyle to involve some kind of skill, don't we ?

Compared to what? Destrolock or frostmage? To be honest the current cycle is already complex, compared to many other DPS-cycles in WoW.

Of course it is not hard to use a CD every 30sec. To use it "perfectly" so that you don´t use time or energy or GCDs. and in pefect sync with the tickings of rip, roar and rake is another matter.

For my part I will use it with macros keyd to shred, rip or roar, assuming that you loose enough energy with mangle and rake. After that you are in your cycle and you cannot say exactly what you will be doing after 30 seconds. The only yellow abilities who profit from furor are mangle and shred ... you want to minimize your mangle (or you use a mangle/roar/bite/ripe cycle which still needs tests), so only shred (and your autoattack) profits from furor. During your cycle you always try not to waste any energy, so it is safe to assume that your energy will always be under 90.

And yes, of couse i will have to test it. ;-)

manapaws · 10/07/08, 12:32 PM

Just wanted to post some feedback on the java wowcatsim that was previously linked. I used my real ingame (on beta) unbuffed stats. I'm in 3pc t7 and random offset pieces from naxx. The amount/level of gems/enchants however is quite poor since there are no ppl levelling professions on beta. No metagem either

My stats are (with 2/2 imp gift of the wild on):
Tauren (if it makes any difference)
5941 AP
42.98% crit
182 hit (Char pane shows 5.55% for lvl80 - is this what the sim uses? converts to boss level? perhaps better to allow rating instead)
Armor Pen 5.07% (Didn't see a place to input this)
Expertise Rating 131, Expertise 15, -3.75% dodge/parry, assume the latter is what the sim wants.
31 haste rating (0.95% haste - assume 0.95 is the input here, which brings speed to .99)

My spec on beta is currently (it changes alot) - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft to try to be a good tank but be able to dps as well.

Feedback:
1) Firstly, you have Predatory instincts as a 5 point talent, it's now a 3 pointer (Increase crit dmg by 3/7/10%)
2) With 4 SR + 5 Rip + 5 Bite strategy achieved 2039 dps 7.13sd 0.17err
3) With the maintain roar/rake/mangle use shred/rip strategy achieved 2193 dps 6.94sd, 0.69err
4) Both of the above seem pretty good considering I'm just self buffed. +10% AP will be quite common in group (Enh Shaman, MM Hunter, DK can all provide), doesn't include trinket procs/uses either.

One thing I really want to get clarification on, as I'm not mathematically minded whatsoever, is Rip combo points. Many times over the past page or 2 people have been mentioned 5 pt rips. I'd really like to know if they actually mean 5 point ones, or just 4+ ones. At what amount of crit% is the balancing point of being worthwhile to shred again while at 4 points or not? Ie, chance of wasting a combo point vs dps otherwise. Let me know if this doesn't make sense :p

Also, currently, if we have +AP trinkets we pop them just as applying Rip to the boss. Will this still be the case?

Malazaar · 10/07/08, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by summlan

I played around in flash with Nightcrowlers code for feraldps.
It seems like im doing way to much damage

Same stats as nightcrowler.
Raidbuffed AP: 9552

With SR up
Rake ticks for 2041
Rip ticks for 1720
Shred crits for 6546
Mangle crits for 5386

Shred and Mangle seems to be alright, but rake and rip?

Seems fine to me, do the math:

Rake: ((9552*1.4)*0.18+1161)*1.1*1.2*1.3 = 6123 -> 2041 per tick
Rip: ((9552*1.4)*0.3+3204)*1.1*1.3 = 10319 ->1720 per tick (no matter what the duration of rip is)

Neddie · 10/07/08, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Snarley

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Dear Devs; want prot pvp to be viable?

Unfortunately:

This is going to help with threat, and will make doing dps with a prot build (whether as OT, MT, leveling or doing daily quests) more fun.

Which sounds like they assume that if a prot warrior is in a raid, he will be tanking, which means if fight A requires two tanks, the feral druid and prot warrior will tank it. If fight B requires 1 tank, the prot warrior will tank it and the feral druid will DPS.

Hrm, or maybe not. Later in that same thread:

The Prot warrior should also be able to switch to dps, and they come with Battle Shout and Commanding Shout, two very solid buffs. No, they can't heal.

and

Yes. That is the goal. Prot pallies too. You won't be doing as much damage as an Arms warrior, but you shouldn't be standing around wishing you had enough rage to have fun. You will likely also keep your shield on when soloing, though some warrirors do this on Live. To be honest, I am a little nervous that when we next do our tests, Prot's dps is going to be higher than Arms. That's probably overkill, and you might laugh at the thought, but that's the degree of changes we're talking about. (And we would certainly readjust if that ends up being the case.)

If a prot warrior does similar DPS as a bear specced druid when not tanking, I'll be happy. Thanks for that link, it basically answers the questions I had.

Varashkan · 10/07/08, 12:57 PM

Unless a fight offers a specific and huge advantage to a feral tank (which it seems the devs do not want to do) I would always have the warrior tank the boss and allow the feral to dps if only for battle raise. Warriors can't give the tree that likes to stand in the fire a second chance and druids can.

Phorage · 10/07/08, 1:27 PM

If you are on Beta, make sure to bump the GCD issues. Barkskin, Survival Instincts and Frenzied Regen should be off GCD to allow for a panic button together with trinkets, instead of having to wait a week or two to get the all the defensive abilities up in a critical situation.

If nothing else at least SI since I believe Last Stand is off GCD for warriors.

Vand1 · 10/07/08, 2:52 PM

I understand that dodge rating is no longer strictly inferior to agility, in that you get a greater increase to your chance to dodge from dodge rating than you do from agility (which, frankly, seems the way it should be). However, if I am reading the Combat Ratings thread correctly, the difference in the DR:dodge and agi:dodge ratios is fairly small, less than 10%. Given that agility still has the triple benefit (dodge, crit, armor), I assume that means that bears will still prefer agility over dodge rating; correct? Has there been any change to the gearing priorities for bears (other than no longer needing defense/resilience)?

Nadir_Eonar · 10/07/08, 3:15 PM

Originally Posted by Vand1

I understand that dodge rating is no longer strictly inferior to agility, in that you get a greater increase to your chance to dodge from dodge rating than you do from agility (which, frankly, seems the way it should be). However, if I am reading the Combat Ratings thread correctly, the difference in the DR:dodge and agi:dodge ratios is fairly small, less than 10%. Given that agility still has the triple benefit (dodge, crit, armor), I assume that means that bears will still prefer agility over dodge rating; correct?

I'd wondered about this, and about the potential for using dodge gems, but I came to the same conclusion you did; agility still works out better overall due to the threat/rage buff (and to a lesser extent the armor benefit) from agility. And when you factor in BoK, and the occasional need to DPS even as a tank specced bear, the case for agility gets even stronger.

Originally Posted by Vand1

Has there been any change to the gearing priorities for bears (other than no longer needing defense/resilience)?

Nothing major that I can see. Possibly diminishing returns on avoidance will mean that after a certain point agility will become clearly worse than more stamina, but in general it seems to still be Armor above all, then a mix of agility and stamina, with threat stats coming naturally without needing to gem/enchant for them (even more so than in TBC). Expertise is clearly going to be easier to get since it seems to be loaded on our tier gear. Not sure about hit, but by all accounts it sounds unlikely that we are going to need to worry about gemming for threat.

Vand1 · 10/07/08, 3:25 PM

I had not even taken stat increases from talents and raid buffs into consideration (and I do not think the Combat Ratings thread does, either). Between SotF and BoK, it seems that agility is still strictly superior to dodge rating. Or am I doing some math wrong?

Nadir_Eonar · 10/07/08, 3:36 PM

Originally Posted by Vand1

Or am I doing some math wrong?

If you are I can't see where. As far as I'm concerned dodge rating is still just something i'm happy to see on tank accessories/weaps/cloaks (I don't think that there is going to be much if any agility on these categories of tank gear, beacuse agility is junk for other tanks, but they all use dodge) but not something to gem or enchant for.

Shame really, it would actually make sense to me if there was some benefit to gemming bear gear for dodge as opposed to agility (it would be in line with Blizz's current 'specialisation' theme) but I don't see it happening.

angi · 10/07/08, 3:38 PM

The question is whether agi gems still are the best gems to socket for dmg. If thats not the case i can only think of gemming towards stamina for tanking and armor pen/strength for dmg. Gemming towards dodge is in my eyes not good because of the diminishing returns. Threat is in the current state of the beta no problem as bear so gemming agi as tank has not the benefits it used to be in tbc.

But its fight dependend, so if there are fights that require your group to have a minimal amount of healers (like muru) gemming dodge is perhaps not a bad idea. But these are rare cases so having a dodge-equip is perhaps not the baddest idea, but it is in my eyes not the strategie to prefer for all encounters.

• Astrylian · 10/07/08, 3:44 PM

The shift in value of agi vs stam at 70 at sunwell level is large enough that I'm currently seeing [Solid Azure Moonstone] as better than [Delicate Crimson Spinel].

EDIT: I'm not saying go socket all your gear with 18stam gems right now in preparation... Rawr isn't done yet, and I haven't calculated everything perfectly yet, those are just ballpark numbers. But buying a bunch of [Empyrean Sapphire]s with your spare badges instead of [Crimson Spinel]s would probably be a good idea.

tangedyn · 10/07/08, 4:19 PM

I've released version 0.11.0 of the DPS Calculator, a Release Candidate, almost ready for a 1.0 release.

Originally Posted by manapaws

Just wanted to post some feedback on the java wowcatsim that was previously linked. I used my real ingame (on beta) unbuffed stats. I'm in 3pc t7 and random offset pieces from naxx. The amount/level of gems/enchants however is quite poor since there are no ppl levelling professions on beta. No metagem either

My stats are (with 2/2 imp gift of the wild on):
Tauren (if it makes any difference)
5941 AP
42.98% crit
182 hit (Char pane shows 5.55% for lvl80 - is this what the sim uses? converts to boss level? perhaps better to allow rating instead)
Armor Pen 5.07% (Didn't see a place to input this)
Expertise Rating 131, Expertise 15, -3.75% dodge/parry, assume the latter is what the sim wants.
31 haste rating (0.95% haste - assume 0.95 is the input here, which brings speed to .99)

My spec on beta is currently (it changes alot) - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft to try to be a good tank but be able to dps as well.

Feedback:
1) Firstly, you have Predatory instincts as a 5 point talent, it's now a 3 pointer (Increase crit dmg by 3/7/10%)
2) With 4 SR + 5 Rip + 5 Bite strategy achieved 2039 dps 7.13sd 0.17err
3) With the maintain roar/rake/mangle use shred/rip strategy achieved 2193 dps 6.94sd, 0.69err
4) Both of the above seem pretty good considering I'm just self buffed. +10% AP will be quite common in group (Enh Shaman, MM Hunter, DK can all provide), doesn't include trinket procs/uses either.

One thing I really want to get clarification on, as I'm not mathematically minded whatsoever, is Rip combo points. Many times over the past page or 2 people have been mentioned 5 pt rips. I'd really like to know if they actually mean 5 point ones, or just 4+ ones. At what amount of crit% is the balancing point of being worthwhile to shred again while at 4 points or not? Ie, chance of wasting a combo point vs dps otherwise. Let me know if this doesn't make sense :p

Also, currently, if we have +AP trinkets we pop them just as applying Rip to the boss. Will this still be the case?

The Predatory Instinct talent has been updated in the latest release, thanks for the report.
I'd like to reiterate that the simulator wasn't really written to predict how much DPS you should expect to be doing. My primary intention for the simulator is so that we can determine the best cycle/rotation/strategy to use our available cat skills to maximize our DPS.

I have not test high levels of crit, but generally doing less than 5 CPs will be a nett DPS loss.
If you wish, you can easily tweak the strategies to Rip at less than 5 CPs.

Look for this line in the strategy:

    if (status.getComboPoints() >= 5) {
        if (status.getRipTimer() == 0 && (status.getEnergy() >= 30 || status.isOocUp()))
            return Action.RIP;
        else
            return Action.NONE;
    }

change the 5 in the first line to whatever minimum amount of CPs you would like to rip with.

david0925 · 10/07/08, 5:14 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

The shift in value of agi vs stam at 70 at sunwell level is large enough that I'm currently seeing [Solid Azure Moonstone] as better than [Delicate Crimson Spinel].

EDIT: I'm not saying go socket all your gear with 18stam gems right now in preparation... Rawr isn't done yet, and I haven't calculated everything perfectly yet, those are just ballpark numbers. But buying a bunch of [Empyrean Sapphire]s with your spare badges instead of [Crimson Spinel]s would probably be a good idea.

Have you considered the fact that Sunwell Radiance is being removed, making avoidance even better? At 70 agility probably isn't the best stat anymore, but dodge gems should still outperform stamina gems, intuitively speaking

edit: in my opinion Agility -should- be the best stat for a bear in terms of avoidance just because we share loot with Rogues and will not get dodge/parry/defense from leather gear. They can make our agility scale as good as dodge rating for plate tanking classes but the fact is that agility should be our primary avoidance stat.

I don't even think agility is the best cat stat anymore, (I think it was Expertise > hit > Str > Crit= agi or something like that? Someone remind me please), so it's not like we'll do top cat dps in the same gear/gem/enchant just by form swapping.

double edit: comparing 20 agility and 20 dodge rating at level 80.

20 agility, after raid buffs, is 20 x 1.1 (kings) x 1.06 (SoTF) x 0.024 = 0.56% dodge
20 dodge rating = 20 / 39.35 = 0.51%

Numbers for agi/dodge and rating are from
Combat Ratings at level 80

So in conclusion, after kings, Agi > dodge for avoidance, and are pretty much the same before kings. Some rounding is used but should not make a big difference.

Janraea · 10/07/08, 5:34 PM

Originally Posted by david0925

Have you considered the fact that Sunwell Radiance is being removed, making avoidance even better? At 70 agility probably isn't the best stat anymore, but dodge gems should still outperform stamina gems, intuitively speaking

edit: in my opinion Agility -should- be the best stat for a bear in terms of avoidance just because we share loot with Rogues and will not get dodge/parry/defense from leather gear. They can make our agility scale as good as dodge rating for plate tanking classes but the fact is that agility should be our primary avoidance stat.

Avoidance took a big hit for bears because of the diminishing returns, more than making up for the removal of sunwell radiance.

Maeltne · 10/07/08, 5:51 PM

Someone showed in this thread that Agility scaled as well for us a Defense does for Warriors. Last I checked Warriors didn't enchant/gem for Defense beyond what was needed for to not be crit.

We have no such requirement and, I suspect, the closest we well get to actively gemming for agility will be in yellow/red sockets with green/purple gems combined with stamina when socket bonuses are worthwhile.

Even then we may prefer dodge, expertise, or hit.

david0925 · 10/07/08, 6:03 PM

Originally Posted by Maeltne

Someone showed in this thread that Agility scaled as well for us a Defense does for Warriors. Last I checked Warriors didn't enchant/gem for Defense beyond what was needed for to not be crit.

We have no such requirement and, I suspect, the closest we well get to actively gemming for agility will be in yellow/red sockets with green/purple gems combined with stamina when socket bonuses are worthwhile.

Even then we may prefer dodge, expertise, or hit.

even for a warrior, defense isn't better than dodge for avoidance, although when a warrior stack dodge or parry too much defense can become closer due to diminishing returns

Personally speaking, as the way the ratings are set up right now, I'll be stacking agility in my tanking set, and expertise/hit in my dps gear, which I will also use as my threat set.