Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 113

Mijae · 09/07/08, 6:26 PM

By my current estimates, Savage Fury is by FAR the best TPS over any other talent. Each point is worth slightly more than one and a half times even the 5% crit from LotP. This is based on the static threat for Maul and Lacerate scaling equal to base damage scaling. It's also assuming Mangle still has the 1.3 threat multiplier.

foxglove · 09/07/08, 6:45 PM

Originally Posted by Mijae

By my current estimates, Savage Fury is by FAR the best TPS over any other talent. Each point is worth slightly more than one and a half times even the 5% crit from LotP. This is based on the static threat for Maul and Lacerate scaling equal to base damage scaling. It's also assuming Mangle still has the 1.3 threat multiplier.

Out of curiosity, did you also compare it to Primal Precision, assuming one is not expertise capped?

Originally Posted by Vaeys

Which means cat druids - regardless of Trauma - will still need to be applying Mangle to get the Shred bonus.

(unless someone in beta can confirm that Trauma boosts Shred as well)

I guess it's possible that the intent of Trauma is to provide the debuff when there's no feral available--and if there's no feral available, then there's no reason for it to buff Shred, eh?

Vaeys · 09/07/08, 7:30 PM

Originally Posted by foxglove

I guess it's possible that the intent of Trauma is to provide the debuff when there's no feral available--and if there's no feral available, then there's no reason for it to buff Shred, eh?

But cats won't be able to just shred-spam if Trauma is available - they'll have to use Mangle themselves to gain the bonus to Shred. (which is what I was referring to with the original quote).

Though do both debuffs show up on the mob (and only one apply), or does one get replaced? (given the difference in durations)

Tappin · 09/07/08, 7:37 PM

Originally Posted by Vaeys

Though do both debuffs show up on the mob (and only one apply), or does one get replaced? (given the difference in durations)

If it doesn't overwrite, I'm sure it will soon. Part of the reason that's they're consolidated and non-stacking a lot of previously stackable debuffs is to make room. Adding more debuff slots to every mob nearby adds a lot of overhead to the data you need to synch with the servers. Adding DKs and new talents potentially made a lot more debuffs. If you have too many some just pop off. They've said they'll try to add more slots. But they also seem to be deliberately reducing the number of distinct debuffs on mobs.

foxglove · 09/07/08, 7:45 PM

Originally Posted by Tappin

If it doesn't overwrite, I'm sure it will soon. Part of the reason that's they're consolidated and non-stacking a lot of previously stackable debuffs is to make room. Adding more debuff slots to every mob nearby adds a lot of overhead to the data you need to synch with the servers. Adding DKs and new talents potentially made a lot more debuffs. If you have too many some just pop off. They've said they'll try to add more slots. But they also seem to be deliberately reducing the number of distinct debuffs on mobs.

It would be very problematic for ferals if Trauma overwrites Mangle (being of a longer duration) and also does not buff Maul/Shred, especially since the warrior version is involuntary. Hopefully the devs will keep that in mind when they are evaluating how the debuffs interact.

Mijae · 09/07/08, 7:48 PM

Originally Posted by foxglove

Out of curiosity, did you also compare it to Primal Precision, assuming one is not expertise capped?

Here's more detail...

Gear (no idol or trinkets):

Hewn Sparring Quarterstaff
Scabrous-Hide Helm
Amulet of Wills
Spaulders of the Careless Thief
Flowing Cloak of Command
Crystal-Infused Tunic
Shackles of Dark Whispers
Sidestepping Handguards
Ley-Whelphide Belt
Constellation Leggings
QR ZDBlue6 Leather Physical Boots
Titanium Earthguard Ring
Titanium Earthguard Ring

Includes all currently available raid buffs.

AP: 4903
Crit: 32.15%
Hit: 7.35%
Expertise: 2.5%
ArP: 5710
Haste: 130.7%
Estimated TPS (unlimited rage): 2822

This is based on all talents enabled. By disabling each talent individually gives the following:

Feral Instinct: 67.72 (22.57)
Sharpened Claws: 119.89 (39.96)
Predatory Strikes: 142.39 (47.46)
Primal Precision: 167.65 (83.83)
Savage Fury: 341.35 (170.68)
SotF: 36.98 (12.33)
LotP: 99.9
Predatory Instincts: 108.16 (21.63)
Imp Mangle: 120.21 (40.07)
Rend & Tear: 128.13 (25.63)
Naturalist: 220.87 (44.17)
Master Shapeshifter: 93.11 (18.62)

Estimated equivalence points (for TPS):

AP: 1
Str: 2.36
Agi: 0.82
Crit: 1.23
Hit: 2.9
Exp: 5.8
Haste: 1.51
ArP: 0.35

I'll post my updated spreadsheet when I get a more stable version. I'm still working on implementing Savage Roar and refining other calculations.

Tappin · 09/07/08, 7:48 PM

I was thinking the opposite. That mangle, being a better effect (as iLotp would be) would overwrte trauma.

Fallacy · 09/07/08, 8:00 PM

MMO-Champion has another Feral staff listed as a new drop from Kel'thuzad: Staff of the Plaguehound

Item level aside, seems like this one is more Cat-oriented.

Tappin · 09/07/08, 8:03 PM

Thanks for the work! Assuming your numbers are correct, ordering those for threat gained per talent point

Savage Fury: 341.35 (170.68)
LotP: 99.9
Primal Precision: 167.65 (83.83)
Predatory Strikes: 142.39 (47.46)
Naturalist: 220.87 (44.17)
Imp Mangle: 120.21 (40.07)
Sharpened Claws: 119.89 (39.96)
Rend & Tear: 128.13 (25.63)
Feral Instinct: 67.72 (22.57)
Predatory Instincts: 108.16 (21.63)
Master Shapeshifter: 93.11 (18.62)
SotF: 36.98 (12.33)

SotF is an obvious choice.
PI you take also for the 15% AE avoidance for tanking.
FI: I'm assuming this is against a single mob and the talent could offer as much as 4+ times the threat on multi-mob trash

So, unless things change I feel pretty good about skipping Rend and Tear and Master Shapeshifter for a mostly tanking build.

foxglove · 09/07/08, 8:05 PM

Originally Posted by Mijae

This is based on all talents enabled. By disabling each talent individually gives the following:

Feral Instinct: 67.72 (22.57)
Sharpened Claws: 119.89 (39.96)
Predatory Strikes: 142.39 (47.46)
Primal Precision: 167.65 (83.83)
Savage Fury: 341.35 (170.68)
SotF: 36.98 (12.33)
LotP: 99.9
Predatory Instincts: 108.16 (21.63)
Imp Mangle: 120.21 (40.07)
Rend & Tear: 128.13 (25.63)
Naturalist: 220.87 (44.17)
Master Shapeshifter: 93.11 (18.62)

This is very interesting; thank you for the numbers. So Master Shapeshifter really is the weakest of the lot (aside from SotF but we're not getting that for threat anyway), assuming a rage-capped situation. It would only be worthwhile in non-raid boss situations.

Naturalist looks like the per-point is based on 5 points. If one is of the furor-is-useless school and chooses to treat Naturalist as being "10 effective points" (as if anyone would spec 71 feral?), then it actually comes out pretty low as well (since OoC is useless in a rage-capped situation).

Feral Instinct also comes out pretty low--is this against a single target? Mangle-Lacerate-Swipe cycle? I look forward to the new version of the spreadsheet.

Edit: gah, too slow!

Valerian · 09/07/08, 8:25 PM

Originally Posted by Fallacy

MMO-Champion has another Feral staff listed as a new drop from Kel'thuzad: Staff of the Plaguehound

Item level aside, seems like this one is more Cat-oriented.

With this I really am getting concerned about being expertise capped fairly early. Nearly all our set pieces have expertise, this staff has a HUGE chunk and a bunch of off-set pieces I've seen also have expertise.

seminarca · 09/07/08, 8:38 PM

For DPSing, the concern is certainly valid. Primal Precision could definitely be axed depending on how close to being hit capped one is (in that if you're close to hit/expertise capped, the energy refund loses value). But for tanking, parries go all the way up to 13.75% as per recent Warrior testing, so it still retains value threatwise (and to an extent, for reducing parry/thresh chance).

RareBeast · 09/07/08, 10:34 PM

With regard to the effectiveness of Primal Precision for Cat DPS, has anyone seen any info on how much expertise rating and hit rating we will need to hit the cap?

Looking at the beta stats for the 10man Naxx raid, the feral druid set has expertise on 3 of the pieces totalling 115 expertise rating. That alone is well over the current expertise cap for us so I assume the ratio of ExpertiseRating to Expertise is changing, but I have been unable to find any information on the new caps.

seminarca · 09/07/08, 11:31 PM

A cursory search of the forums turns up:
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-c...gs_level_80_a/

And:
http://elitistjerks.com/883429-post1644.html

Pzychotix · 09/08/08, 1:19 AM

Awesome. That means one of our talents is half useless with T7 gear. They went way overboard with the expertise.