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Old 10/09/08, 1:28 PM   #2851
Garanthir
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Eldre'Thalas
With most assumptions pointing to the patch going live on Tuesday I think it's worth going back over this posthttp://elitistjerks.com/907379-post2248.html. It is excellent guidance for Bear focus talent build questions.

I am trying to think if anything has changed on Beta to reorder any of the numbers, I do not believe there has been.

Last edited by Garanthir : 10/09/08 at 1:33 PM. Reason: Added Bear focus

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Old 10/09/08, 1:31 PM   #2852
smurph98gt
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Moonrunner
Originally Posted by tlbj6142 View Post
When you tanked, you didn't have threat issues without RnT? Did IW work on the bosses?
No.. I wish I had some sort of threat meter so I could see things a little better, but I only had 1 problem when my Elemental Shaman opened with Chain Lightning on a group of mobs as I just hit swipe on them, he pulled two right away. That was about it.

I didn't tank Prince, so I don't know if IW works on him, but I'm pretty sure it worked on Netherspite. I've heard it's supposed to work on anything that Thunder Clap works on, and as far as I know TC works on most Raid Bosses, right?

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Old 10/09/08, 1:34 PM   #2853
summlan
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Kazzak (EU)
I made a flash-simulator using nightcrawlers code.
Its nothing fanzy but atleast you get the feel for how our dps-cycle will look like in wotlk.

The numbers should be close to accurate, rip and rake might not tick when they actually should tick but atleast they tick the right amount of times (atleast rake).
Not sure if the energy-regen is accurate.
SCT looks horrible, and for some reason it wont show some melee-crits.

simplifieddps

theres probably more bugs with it that i havent found yet, but i threw it together in a couple of hours so dont expect to much from it.

and the code: http://d9550218.u125.surftown.se/summlan/FERALDPS.rar

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Old 10/09/08, 1:49 PM   #2854
jordadruid
Glass Joe
 
jordadruid's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Dunemaul (EU)
here is how i am doing in black temple on bosses in cat first i am using shred up to five combo points and than using rip for five combo points and than claw to get fast combo points and again shred and rip and again those things and i make a lot more threat like that than using mangle on boss tbh gives me more threat i think.

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Old 10/09/08, 1:57 PM   #2855
Diameter
Don Flamenco
 
Diameter's Avatar
 
Orc Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Garanthir View Post
With most assumptions pointing to the patch going live on Tuesday I think it's worth going back over this posthttp://elitistjerks.com/907379-post2248.html. It is excellent guidance for Bear focus talent build questions.

I am trying to think if anything has changed on Beta to reorder any of the numbers, I do not believe there has been.
Predatory Instincts would have a value of 0 since it only works for cat form now. Other than that, I think it's correct.

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Old 10/09/08, 2:34 PM   #2856
Mordant
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Bronzebeard (EU)
Originally Posted by summlan View Post
I made a flash-simulator using nightcrawlers code.
Its nothing fanzy but atleast you get the feel for how our dps-cycle will look like in wotlk.

The numbers should be close to accurate, rip and rake might not tick when they actually should tick but atleast they tick the right amount of times (atleast rake).
Not sure if the energy-regen is accurate.
SCT looks horrible, and for some reason it wont show some melee-crits.

simplifieddps

theres probably more bugs with it that i havent found yet, but i threw it together in a couple of hours so dont expect to much from it.

and the code: http://d9550218.u125.surftown.se/summlan/FERALDPS.rar
Played on your flash a little bit and have to say, that keeping up SR, Mangle and Rake up all the time, while using TF every cooldown (and not wasting energy with it) is really difficult while running SR/Rip/FB rotation.

About flash itself: Any chance to add "Clearcasting!" message to your "SCT" and some TF cooldown timer?

Max possible DPS here should be around 5k, right? I guess, I have to practise more, as I can't break 4k .

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Old 10/09/08, 2:37 PM   #2857
tlbj6142
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Steamwheedle Cartel
Originally Posted by Garanthir View Post
With most assumptions pointing to the patch going live on Tuesday I think it's worth going back over this posthttp://elitistjerks.com/907379-post2248.html. It is excellent guidance for Bear focus talent build questions..
Those represent TPS per talent point or do they assume max ranking??? Has someone published a ranking of talents from a defensive perspective (mitigation, avoidance, survivability)?

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Old 10/09/08, 2:38 PM   #2858
Gurrshael
Von Kaiser
 
Gurrshael's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Drak'thul (EU)
Originally Posted by summlan View Post
I made a flash-simulator using nightcrawlers code.
Its nothing fanzy but atleast you get the feel for how our dps-cycle will look like in wotlk.

The numbers should be close to accurate, rip and rake might not tick when they actually should tick but atleast they tick the right amount of times (atleast rake).
Not sure if the energy-regen is accurate.
SCT looks horrible, and for some reason it wont show some melee-crits.

simplifieddps

theres probably more bugs with it that i havent found yet, but i threw it together in a couple of hours so dont expect to much from it.

and the code: http://d9550218.u125.surftown.se/summlan/FERALDPS.rar
Excellent, thanks a lot for this.

I could hover around 3800 dps after a while. I highly doubt that I would be able to watch all cooldowns and pay attention to the fight simulatenously, not to mention that we will have an additional CDs to watch: Berserk and refreshing Faerie Fire...

I really like nontrivial dps that would need a bit of skill but I fear this is too much for me.

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Old 10/09/08, 3:13 PM   #2859
Garanthir
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Eldre'Thalas
Originally Posted by tlbj6142 View Post
Those represent TPS per talent point or do they assume max ranking??? Has someone published a ranking of talents from a defensive perspective (mitigation, avoidance, survivability)?
I haven't seen anything else posted, I guess because most assume certain items as "core" Bear talents (Thick Hide, Natural Reaction, SotF, etc). But I do see your point, breaking the other aspects down would be helpful for a Cat spec or hybrid spec in chosing a few Bear talents.

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Old 10/09/08, 3:42 PM   #2860
tangedyn
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Thaurissan
Originally Posted by Soultrigger View Post
I understand that so far we are comparing skills and when to use them, but can you please try to see if this rotation would be ideal or a dps loss, the math behind it is just that all the rotation has to support itself. (before rake buffs, rakes were shreds, and rip lasted enough for FB to get the 50% crit bonus). All I did is to make sure in every situation the buffs were up, rake will fall for 1 or 2 seconds at most (because of energy regen), the only issues are two: 1) One shred will always go off without the SR up (btw, I am thinking this rotation with 5 point SR, 5 point Rip, 5 point FB), and 2) the other is that between the last rake in the rotation and the first one, there will be a 10 seconds without rake debuff, because we need to allow the energy to recharge to restart the rotation. No idea if it is any dps gain actually, because I am not that math guy. Oh, another detail, for every 3 skills that generate combo points, I am counting 2 crits for 5 points, or hoping that the OoC procs make up for non crits streaks. Also I am considering mangle and rip glyphs, and 2 pieces T7.

(wait for 74 energy when it is the second time you start the rotation, btw 3.9s means 3.9 seconds to reflect energy regen time)

Mangle (3.9s)+Rake (3.5s)+Shred(4,2s)+Savage Roar(2.5s)

(rake will drop for 1.2 secs)

+Rake(3.5s)+Shred(4.2s)+Tiger´s Fury(-6.0s)+Mangle(3.9s)+Rip(3.0s)

(On this part, wait for 9 energy to use TF, simply because you will save the energy regen time to do double rip+mangle to avoid ticks without mangle debuff, btw you are renewing MG at 17.9s, just 0.1 secs before it expires)

+Rake(3.5s)+Shred(4.2s)+Shred(4.2s)+Ferocious Bite(3.5s)

(the rake on this rotation, because of TF, will be at 8.6 sec, so you might want to let the dot tick off before reapplying it. When this rake finishes, it will take about 10 second before you can have a rake up again, this is because of the energy cost of ferocious bite, mangle and rake).

This is the best I could come up with as a rotation to use the new buffed feral skills, but maybe it is not the best dps rotation, but I felt like presenting it for evaluation.
Hi Soultrigger,
I wrote the strategy code for your rotation, as follows:

int cycle = 1;
boolean finish = false;
int filler = -1;

public Action mangle() {
    if (status.getEnergy() >= status.getMangleCost()) {
        filler = status.getComboPoints();
        return Action.MANGLE;
    }
    else
        return Action.NONE;
}

public Action rake() {
    if (status.getEnergy() >= status.getRakeCost()) {
        filler = status.getComboPoints();
        return Action.RAKE;
    }
    else
        return Action.NONE;
}

public Action shred() {
    if (status.getEnergy() >= status.getShredCost()) {
        filler = status.getComboPoints();
        return Action.SHRED;
    }
    else
        return Action.NONE;
}

public Action roar() {
    if (status.getEnergy() >= 25) {
        finish = true;
        return Action.ROAR;
    }
    else
        return Action.NONE;
}

public Action rip() {
    if (status.getEnergy() >= 30) {
        finish = true;
        return Action.RIP;
    }
    else
        return Action.NONE;
}

public Action bite() {
    if (status.getEnergy() >= 35) {
        finish = true;
        return Action.BITE;
    }
    else
        return Action.NONE;
}

public Action getAction() {
    // Determine if previous action was successful
    if (finish) {
        finish = false;
        if (status.getComboPoints() == 0) 
            cycle ++;
    }
    if (filler >= 0) {
        filler = -1;
        if (status.getComboPoints() >= filler)
            cycle ++;
    }
    if (cycle > 13)
        cycle = 1;

    switch (cycle) {
        case 1:
            return mangle();
        case 2:
            return rake();
        case 3:
            return shred();
        case 4:
            return roar();
        case 5:
            return rake();
        case 6:
            return shred();
        case 7:
            if (status.getFuryCooldown() == 0) {
                cycle ++;
                return Action.FURY;
            }
            else return Action.NONE;
        case 8:
            return mangle();
        case 9:
            return rip();
        case 10:
            return rake();
        case 11:
            return shred();
        case 12:
            return shred();
        case 13:
            return bite();
    }
    return Action.NONE;
}
Using my default stats, I'm getting 2059 dps from your rotation compared to 2275 dps from the baseline strategy, unfortunately. I looked through the log and the rotation is often messed up waiting for the Tiger's Fury timer depending on the OoC proc randomness.

Because of this, I think it is obvious that fixed rotations simply do not work anymore in 3.0. You will need to adapt on the fly depending on crits and OoC procs.


_____
Wowcatsim - Cat DPS Simulator for 3.0

Last edited by tangedyn : 10/09/08 at 3:58 PM.

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Old 10/09/08, 4:00 PM   #2861
david0925
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Proudmoore
Playing with that simulator I can get roughly 4.2-4.3k if I use Mangle and Rake as my combo generating move (basically ignoring shred) and do a 5SR/5Rip/5FB rotation

Basically shows that for me although Mangle is not as much DPE as RnT Shred, it is easier to maintain a healthy damage cycle since it builds up CP faster, which makes the cycle less susceptible to bad crits on specials for PF

Of course I may just need more practice before I can incorporate shred into the rotation.

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Old 10/09/08, 4:02 PM   #2862
tbsp
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Andorhal
It looks like feral dps is going to be involved enough to justify the use of something like DiscoDice (rogue) or DisqoDice (shaman). Is that fair, or am I over-estimating the number of things we'll want to easily keep an eye on?

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Old 10/09/08, 4:02 PM   #2863
summlan
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Kazzak (EU)
Originally Posted by Mordant View Post
Played on your flash a little bit and have to say, that keeping up SR, Mangle and Rake up all the time, while using TF every cooldown (and not wasting energy with it) is really difficult while running SR/Rip/FB rotation.

About flash itself: Any chance to add "Clearcasting!" message to your "SCT" and some TF cooldown timer?

Max possible DPS here should be around 5k, right? I guess, I have to practise more, as I can't break 4k .
Max dps should atleast be close to 5k, i removed the retribution aura and havent added the extra dmg during TF, other than that its the same as nightcrawler.

Im fixing the SCT since that code is terrible. So clearcasting and TF counter is coming. And Start/stop buttons etc.

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Old 10/09/08, 4:07 PM   #2864
Malazaar
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Gul'dan (EU)
First off, that simulator is really nice. I honestly didn't expect the cycle to be that hard to keep up, it's really challenging.

One thing though - do you think you could implement that you can push the buttons with well your buttons on the keyboard instead of having to click them ?

Edit: Nevermind i just discovered how to do it.

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Old 10/09/08, 4:08 PM   #2865
teiglin
Piston Honda
 
Human Warrior
 
Eldre'Thalas
Originally Posted by tlbj6142 View Post
Those represent TPS per talent point or do they assume max ranking??? Has someone published a ranking of talents from a defensive perspective (mitigation, avoidance, survivability)?
Those values are per talent point, yes. The post is probably also using the old Protector of the Pack, which had a flat AP increase rather than the current percentage bonus.

I haven't seen any ranking listed for defensive stats either. As Garanthir said, I suspect that most people assume that any tanking build will be taking them all. More importantly, those talents are much harder to rank in a general sense. For example, while Protector of the Pack mitigates the same amount of damage regardless of gear level, Natural Reaction's benefit goes up greatly as your base avoidance increases.

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Old 10/09/08, 4:13 PM   #2866
ranma
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Crushridge
Originally Posted by summlan View Post
I made a flash-simulator using nightcrawlers code.
Its nothing fanzy but atleast you get the feel for how our dps-cycle will look like in wotlk.

The numbers should be close to accurate, rip and rake might not tick when they actually should tick but atleast they tick the right amount of times (atleast rake).
Not sure if the energy-regen is accurate.
SCT looks horrible, and for some reason it wont show some melee-crits.

simplifieddps

theres probably more bugs with it that i havent found yet, but i threw it together in a couple of hours so dont expect to much from it.

and the code: http://d9550218.u125.surftown.se/summlan/FERALDPS.rar
Excellent. Do you mind put your simulate cat stats on the webpage just for reference?

Edit: and a bug. If you didn't click a button, instead of press 1 first time, you won't get debuff, combo points, until you click a button, then everything is ok.

And if you put a reset button on the flash would be great.

Thank you.

Last edited by ranma : 10/09/08 at 4:19 PM.

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Old 10/09/08, 4:22 PM   #2867
Maeltne
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Suramar
Originally Posted by Garanthir View Post
With most assumptions pointing to the patch going live on Tuesday I think it's worth going back over this posthttp://elitistjerks.com/907379-post2248.html. It is excellent guidance for Bear focus talent build questions.

I am trying to think if anything has changed on Beta to reorder any of the numbers, I do not believe there has been.
Those are *VERY OLD* values. More recent values are here: http://elitistjerks.com/907379-post2248.html

Reposted:
Savage Fury: 357.19
LotP: 197.77
Primal Precision: 173.17
Rend & Tear: 117.54
Predatory Strikes: 101.2
Naturalist: 93.86
Imp Mangle: 89.74
Predatory Instincts: 86.08
Sharpened Claws: 79.11
Protector of the Pack: 65.1
Feral Instinct: 41.88
Shapeshifter (5): 41.3
SotF: 26.19

Changes since then:
PotP went from flat AP to %, but we would get that for mitigation anyway.
Predatory Instincts lost it's magic mitigation, so it is to be evaluated solely on threat.

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Old 10/09/08, 4:30 PM   #2868
Vand1
Von Kaiser
 
Gnome Mage
 
Feathermoon
I thought that the entire effect of Predatory Instincts was being limited to cats only. Also, shouldn't King of the Jungle be included in the list? Or is the assumption that bears have unlimited rage and do not need to use enrage, except perhaps before a pull?

Last edited by Vand1 : 10/09/08 at 4:38 PM.

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Old 10/09/08, 4:36 PM   #2869
Garanthir
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Eldre'Thalas
Originally Posted by Maeltne View Post
Those are *VERY OLD* values. More recent values are here: http://elitistjerks.com/907379-post2248.html

Changes since then:
PotP went from flat AP to %, but we would get that for mitigation anyway.
Predatory Instincts lost it's magic mitigation, so it is to be evaluated solely on threat.
Both post numbers are 2248? And yeah I forgot about both those changes, thanks to you and Loth.

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Old 10/09/08, 4:45 PM   #2870
teiglin
Piston Honda
 
Human Warrior
 
Eldre'Thalas
Originally Posted by Vand1 View Post
Also, shouldn't King of the Jungle be included in the list? Or is the assumption that bears have unlimited rage and do not need to use enrage, except perhaps before a pull?
I think the assumption is that you're tanking a boss whose damage is scary enough that you aren't going to pop enrage. From an offtanking perspective, King of the Jungle is worth 5% damage per point 1/6 of the time, or about 41.7% of what naturalist is worth on average. Ranking it that way puts it at 39.1 points on that table.

Last edited by teiglin : 10/09/08 at 4:46 PM. Reason: quoted wrong post, clarity

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Old 10/09/08, 4:59 PM   #2871
tlbj6142
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Steamwheedle Cartel
Originally Posted by tbsp View Post
It looks like feral dps is going to be involved enough to justify the use of something like DiscoDice (rogue) or DisqoDice (shaman). Is that fair, or am I over-estimating the number of things we'll want to easily keep an eye on?
Wow! That definately looks like something Cat DPS'rs would want. With so many things to track, looking at mob debuf icons (even "big" version in X-Perl) along with your attack cooldowns (Berserk, Energy, TF, etc.) will be a PITA.

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Old 10/09/08, 5:22 PM   #2872
SubhumanHero
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Zangarmarsh
With just the test specs I've ran with based on the constantly changing Blizz information, and focusing on a bear build, I always end up with the same questions, how much is Master Shapeshifter worth in both dps and tps and the same same for RnT? If either of those 2 talents are worth it would skipping the 10 exp points from Primal Precision and reallocating those 2 points to max out either MSs or RnT be more beneficial as a tank/ot? This is all with ignoring King of The Jungle because I've always been hesitant to enrage, I just shifted prior to the pull to get the rage I'ld need to start my rotation.

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Old 10/09/08, 5:28 PM   #2873
Garanthir
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Eldre'Thalas
Originally Posted by SubhumanHero View Post
With just the test specs I've ran with based on the constantly changing Blizz information, and focusing on a bear build, I always end up with the same questions, how much is Master Shapeshifter worth in both dps and tps and the same same for RnT? If either of those 2 talents are worth it would skipping the 10 exp points from Primal Precision and reallocating those 2 points to max out either MSs or RnT be more beneficial as a tank/ot? This is all with ignoring King of The Jungle because I've always been hesitant to enrage, I just shifted prior to the pull to get the rage I'ld need to start my rotation.
This type of question question is EXACTLY why I reposted the link to Mijae's post.

Savage Fury: 357.19
LotP: 197.77
Primal Precision: 173.17
Rend & Tear: 117.54 <-------
Predatory Strikes: 101.2
Naturalist: 93.86
Imp Mangle: 89.74
Predatory Instincts: 86.08
Sharpened Claws: 79.11
Protector of the Pack: 65.1
Feral Instinct: 41.88
Shapeshifter (5): 41.3 <--------
SotF: 26.19

While keeping in mind the following (which I shamelessly cut and pasted)

Changes since then:
PotP went from flat AP to %.
Predatory Instincts lost it's magic mitigation, so it is to be evaluated solely on threat.

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Old 10/09/08, 5:29 PM   #2874
Mijae
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Tichondrius
Those values were based on the current percentage bonus to Protector of the Pack. The original version was next to worthless if I remember correctly. And yes, by "normalized values" I mean per talent point.

Note - they were probably based on relative differences when all talents were enabled. Depending on actual talents chosen (or removed), some can add more or less. For example, not getting Improved Mangle means using a different cycle with fewer Mangles and more Swipes or Lacerates. This will directly affect the relative values of Savage Fury and Feral Instinct (though probably not enough to change their ranking much).

Ranking talents on defensive value is just not very interesting as there are so few. Primal Precision has a small value, as does SotF. Primal Tenacity is situational. FA, IW, and iLotP are very hard to calculate comparative values. Feral Swiftness and Natural Reaction are the same value per point. You just end up comparing Thick Hide vs PotP vs dodge. It's going to depend on what you use as a measurement of value (mitigation vs survival). It's also much more greatly affected by gear level.

Edit: Those numbers were based on a single-target boss assuming infinite rage, using full 80 blues. I have not modeled using FFF yet.

Last edited by Mijae : 10/09/08 at 5:39 PM.


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Old 10/09/08, 5:45 PM   #2875
david0925
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Proudmoore
The damage for Shred feels really low for me, especially since it receives 30% bonus from Mangle and 20% from RnT. Is the code for Shred correct?

I checked Shred damage before and after Mangle: the values are identical. Are you already assuming Trauma/Mangle bot is up, or is the 30% overlooked?

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