Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 115

kalbear · 09/08/08, 1:28 PM

Really, if int is an issue pick up one of the blue caster staves and switch weapons when casting anything. That'll make up for the mana fairly easily.

It does make 20% int particularly weak as a talent boost, but that's about the only negative effect not having int on tier gear is going to have. Without powershifting there is no real pressing need to save a lot of mana. Especially considering that we will be regenerating mana while in forms at a higher rate and everything is based on base mana. Really, the lack of int on gear should not be the primary worry for either tanks or dps.

Disargeria · 09/08/08, 1:56 PM

Hybrid playstyle and hybrid itemization is detrimental to our goals of being great main tanks and great dps. I don't want int on my gear because it doesn't help my main tanking or dps abilities. I understand the choice of a more hybrid playstyle, but if it's forced into itemization it just drags everyone else down. I think maximizing feral items is the first priority, and then if someone wants to deviate from those roles, they can change sockets and consumables.

Also, Moonglade set.

Nitz · 09/08/08, 2:20 PM

Int still is necessary as a PvP stat. This is the PvP set you should worry about.

Pike · 09/08/08, 2:22 PM

As many of you have already predicted, it looks like our current tier sets' stats are going to be modified.

Tanking stats updated for Wrath and Patch 3.0 - WOW Insider

kalbear · 09/08/08, 2:38 PM

To be clear, they've only changed the warrior and paladin gear. Which makes sense, especially the non-tier gear for death knights.

I still have no doubt that they will be changing the BC gear but they have not done so yet. My suspicion is that there will be some more stat changes in store first.

Merendel · 09/08/08, 2:49 PM

I agree that int is of marginal importance. The only reason I like it at all is it allows for a few more shifts in combination with BR or innervates or just an emergency heal on myself. However if they are removing the int from our sets the 20% int on HOTW is very pointless. Someone suggested make it increase mana or mana regen but what if they changed it to reduce the cost of shape shifts or even all spells by 20%. It has always bugged me that ferals are the ones most reliant on their shapeshifts and yet they have to spec resto to become better at shifting (AKA lower cost). What if HOTW reduced mana cost and it stacked with nat. shifter? ferals would be able to shift quite a few times even on a small mana tank.

Preferably it would be all spells as it is fairly deep in feral. The other spec's would have to give up alot to get to it. Possibly something like this. Increases Stam in bear form by 20%, AP in cat by 10%, and reduces the cost of spells by 20% for 15 seconds after leaving a feral form. that would allow ferals a few more spells despite very small mana pools. it would also limit the temptation for other spec's to pick it up as they would have to shift every 15s to make use of it. what little gain they would have from cheaper spells would be lost in what they gave up to get it.

kalbear · 09/08/08, 3:03 PM

It would be good if there was a beta forum post on the uselessness of HotW as it stands with current bear itemization. I don't think that this has been made particularly clear yet.

foxglove · 09/08/08, 3:48 PM

For those interested in how our Naxx sets line up with other tanks':

MMO Champion -- Tank Itemization: How Do Druids Compare?

I've cut everything but the numbers, but the post has a nice look at some of the problems and possible solutions. All classes are assumed to have the relevant tanking talents.

ARMOR

Assumed equipment: Full item level 200 epic gear. This means the filled slots are the Eight Armor Slots, Cloak, and Shield. (Shield is only for filled for warrior and paladin.)

Druid: 18667
DeathKnight: 21739
Warrior: 22623
Paladin: 22623

BLOCKING

Assumed gear is 5 pieces of the 10-man Naxxramus tanking set for each class. The shield is considered to have a block value of 211 (epic item level 200 shield).

Increased Chance to Block:
Paladin: 7.37%
Warrior: 5.58%

Increased Block Value (with shield):
Warrior: 335 (609)
Paladin: 515 (789)

AVOIDANCE

Assumed gear is 5 pieces of the 10-man Naxxramus tanking set for each class. Base avoidance values are not taken into account.

Druid: 8.36% (8.36% Dodge)
Death Knight: 14.28% (1.72% Miss, 6.4% Parry, 6.16% Dodge)
Warrior: 10.33% (1.74% Miss, 3.45% Parry, 5.15% Dodge)
Paladin: 7.55% (1.63% Miss, 2.35% Parry, 3.57% Dodge)

HEALTH

Assumed gear is 5 pieces of the 10-man Naxxramus tanking set for each class. Base health is not taken into account.

Druid: 7123
Death Knight: 5220
Warrior: 5575
Paladin: 5981

tlbj6142 · 09/08/08, 4:03 PM

Originally Posted by foxglove

I've cut everything but the numbers, but the post has a nice look at some of the problems and possible solutions. All classes are assumed to have the relevant tanking talents.

It is not clear if he included weapon stats in the mix (it doesn't look like it). Not sure about the other tanking classes, but our tanking 2H has more armor than any of our set pieces, plus other stats. Seem sort of unfair to compare the tanking classes without including weapons (including range weapons for warriors).

Cuer · 09/08/08, 5:43 PM

Further blue comments on the druid board; the part about the feral tree confirms what was discussed earlier, about making choices between cat and bear talents.

1) I'm sorry you feel burned in the past. I can't make that situation go away. Your options are either to keep working with us to fix any problems with the class or give up. I can't suddenly buff druids to silly levels to make up for past inadequacies, and I don't think most of you are really asking for that.

2) There are no tank niches, at least the way they have been defined here. When you ask why would anyone take a druid tank over a warrior tank, the answer is because that player is a better player, not because they have the magic ability that makes an encounter much easier. If you're concern is that the preponderance of warrior mitigation and abilities makes warriors a much more effective tank than druids, then that is a legitimate problem.

3) We haven't finished tuning numbers yet. If cat dps is low, we'll fix it before Lich King goes live. We haven't focused on that yet because we are still working on talent trees and bugs. But you're starting to see some of it. One thing I forgot to mention is that the raid buff overhaul was a net dps loss to melee classes. We expected that would happen, but we have not yet adjusted their dps accordingly. That might not be all cats need, but I wanted to mention it before I forgot.

4) I know balance druids feel neglected. My time is limited, and it's totally valid feedback that I don't give all specs or classes equal attention. My choices seem to be post a little or not post at all. I'm not a CM and any time I spend here (while very valuable for me) is time I'm not fixing classes. We'll try to give balance some more love.

5) I think bears in particular could use a couple more situational abilities. We did lower the cooldown on Berserk and we might even do it again. I assume this doesn't count or you wouldn't be asking for more flashy abilities, but when I did Feral Charge as cat in Utgarde last night, the fight virtually stopped while everyone said "Wait? What did you just do? That looked so cool!"

6) Feral is going to feel a little bigger than other trees because we are specifically trying to offer you more talents than you can get. The design is that you can choose 2-3 talents to emphasize your bear role over your cart role... if you choose. If you want to try and be relatively good at both, then split the difference between those talents.

Windhuf · 09/08/08, 5:45 PM

Originally Posted by tlbj6142

It is not clear if he included weapon stats in the mix (it doesn't look like it). Not sure about the other tanking classes, but our tanking 2H has more armor than any of our set pieces, plus other stats. Seem sort of unfair to compare the tanking classes without including weapons (including range weapons for warriors).

Is this calculation armor only? That means weapons, jewelery and cloaks aren't included?

tlbj6142 · 09/08/08, 6:06 PM

Originally Posted by Windhuf

Is this calculation armor only? That means weapons, jewelery and cloaks aren't included?

That may be, but as Druids, we get quite a bit of armor from our weapon, do other tanking classes? If not, the comparison is invalid.

Duilliath · 09/08/08, 6:36 PM

Originally Posted by Cuer

Further blue comments on the druid board; the part about the feral tree confirms what was discussed earlier, about making choices between cat and bear talents.

Totally fine. I'm okay with some choices made between Cat and Bear. I am not fine with having to declaw Catform completely to spec Bear.

And what I'm totally not pleased about is having to sacrifice BEAR talents because I can't fit them all into a proper Bear spec. Take Feral Aggression for example. Or even Master Shapeshifter. There's no way to currently take those without hurting your bear performance elsewhere. Yet, those talents definitely boost your bear performance. (By a valid margin or not is another matter entirely.)

Were it in the vicinity of 100% bear, 80% cat // 80% cat, 100% bear (or 90/90) - I'd be cool with it. I'm not in agreement with 95% bear, 50% cat.

Deathstorm · 09/08/08, 7:50 PM

Originally Posted by tlbj6142

That may be, but as Druids, we get quite a bit of armor from our weapon, do other tanking classes? If not, the comparison is invalid.

Staff of the Plague Beast 630 armor 2H

vs

Crygil's Discarded Plate Panel 7530 armor shield

Realistically we're only going to make up lost ground on other tanks from the misc pieces like neck or rings as the armor on them will be that much more valuable to ferals but unfortunately as has already been said those pieces also include defense which isn't currently very desirable. It would be nice if we could see some gear with some hit rating, The lack of hit is confusing too.

Pzychotix · 09/08/08, 8:44 PM

Originally Posted by Deathstorm

Staff of the Plague Beast 630 armor 2H

vs

Crygil's Discarded Plate Panel 7530 armor shield

Realistically we're only going to make up lost ground on other tanks from the misc pieces like neck or rings as the armor on them will be that much more valuable to ferals but unfortunately as has already been said those pieces also include defense which isn't currently very desirable. It would be nice if we could see some gear with some hit rating, The lack of hit is confusing too.

Note: The comparison includes shields but excludes armor on our 2 handers. Just tossing some of the extra slots results in this:
WoW Forums -> Tank Itemization: How Do Druids Compare?
Post 32:
Armor:
Druid: 27121
Paladin: 22993
Warrior: 22993
Death Knight: 22883

Block:
Paladin: 14.38%; 1030 BV
Warrior: 11.49%; 995 BV
Death Knight: Can't Block
Druid: Can't Block

Avoidance:
Death Knight: 26.23%
Warrior: 21.11%
Druid: 18.11%
Paladin: 17.62%

Health:
Druid: 14341
Paladin: 12942
Warrior: 11655
Death Knight: 10920