Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 116

summlan · 10/09/08, 6:26 PM

Originally Posted by ranma

Excellent. Do you mind put your simulate cat stats on the webpage just for reference?

Edit: and a bug. If you didn't click a button, instead of press 1 first time, you won't get debuff, combo points, until you click a button, then everything is ok.

And if you put a reset button on the flash would be great.

Thank you.

Updated the program with some new stuff. Its not really a bug that the ability "goes off" after you lift the mousebutton, ive coded it that way since it was possible to hammer the mousebutton and get 2 abilities off for the same amount of energy. And it helps if youre as bad as me clicking the wrong button since you can keep the mousebutton down and drag it away from the button before you release and voila, nothing was pressed.

seminarca · 10/09/08, 7:02 PM

Here's the hybrid build I'm looking at for post patch 3.0 pre WotLK raiding based on the previous threat per talent point numbers:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Assumption: It's meant to fulfill the hybrid tanking/DPS role that Ferals typically undertake at the BT/Hyjal level. Under this assumption, Omen of Clarity and Shredding Attacks become mandatory. For Sunwell, I'd look at a more Bear focussed build (posted below).

Other assumptions are that we want to maximise survivability due to the avoidance and armor nerfs, so the dodge talents and Protector of the Pack are mandatory as well.

Crucial talents that really can't be fit in:

Feral Aggression: other classes can cover the AP reduction debuff. Loss in FB damage may be a slight loss of DPS, depending on whether FB makes it into level 70 DPS cycles.

Feral Instinct: other classes can handle the bulk of AoE tanking.

Brutal Impact: other classes can handle interrupts if necessary.

Imp LotP: can't spare the points =/

Predatory Instincts: DPS sacrifice, again because of lack of points.

Infected Wounds: other classes can handle attack speed slow.

King of the Jungle: DPS sacrifice due to lack of points. Since this isn't level 80 yet, I assume many of us will still be using 2T4 to partially compensate.

The tanking build. In Sunwell, I ended up tanking on the first 5 encounters (we used a Druid MT on Felmyst) so if this doesn't change, I'd go with a full Feral build (dropping OoC):
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Not quite enough points for 5/5 Feral Aggression, but this build essentially drops all Cat talents and takes a full on defensive/threat approach. Could swap 1 from Imp LotP to Feral Aggression I suppose.

urotas · 10/09/08, 7:15 PM

One thing worth noting is that we don't get a new demo roar rank until lvl 71. Demo roar ranks

The rank of Demoralizing Roar you'll be using at lvl 70 is just 220 ap decrease, which is actually a 20 ap drop from live. With 4/5 feral aggression it'll increase to 290 ap reduction and 308 at 5/5 FA. The 4/5 version isn't even enough to overwrite a non-talented warrior's shout. Personally I'd spec 0/51/10 for a tanking build. 10% overall damage should be better for threat than 20% maul damage, and 3/5 furor still lets you start fights with 10 extra rage after a few shifts.

Dibsclaw · 10/09/08, 7:43 PM

Originally Posted by summlan

Updated the program with some new stuff. Its not really a bug that the ability "goes off" after you lift the mousebutton, ive coded it that way since it was possible to hammer the mousebutton and get 2 abilities off for the same amount of energy. And it helps if youre as bad as me clicking the wrong button since you can keep the mousebutton down and drag it away from the button before you release and voila, nothing was pressed.

This is a great job, very handy for trying out rotations.
One thing i have noticed, you don't have a GCD implimented. I thought i was doing well to get 5 SR and 5 Rip up in 7s till I realised this.

As for rotation complexity: For BC my main has been a shadow priest. The kitty "rotations" do not seem to be much more complex than a BC shadow priest. I'd recomend you use the above simulator a little, or if you have access to the PTR/Beta just play with the target dummies a lot - once you get the hang of your own rotation and spotting timers it becomes much easier to concentrate on your enviornment during a boss fight while maintaining maximum dps."

ranma · 10/09/08, 7:57 PM

Originally Posted by seminarca

Here's the hybrid build I'm looking at for post patch 3.0 pre WotLK raiding based on the previous .

It's meant to fulfill the hybrid tanking/DPS role that Ferals typically undertake at the BT/Hyjal level. Under this assumption, Omen of Clarity and Shredding Attacks become mandatory.

I assume you have 2*T6, since you can MT sunwell. In that case, you don't really need shredding attacks, since you already have improved mangle and 2*T6.

Infected Wounds: other classes can handle attack speed slow.

What other classes can handle the attack speed slow when you are tanking?
1. a warrior Thunder Clap for you by sacrifice his dps
2. a protection paladin is dpsing on your boss.
3. a deathknight frost fever for you by sacrifice his dps(I guess frost fever isn't normally on their dps rotation list.). Nevertheless you can't have deathknight yet.
4. another tank build druid cat dps for you.

So, I don't really think it is a good idea to let other one perform slow effect for you. -20% normal damage incoming is huge for survival, I don't think you should pass it.

Originally Posted by urotas

One thing worth noting is that we don't get a new demo roar rank until lvl 71. Demo roar ranks

The rank of Demoralizing Roar you'll be using at lvl 70 is just 220 ap decrease, which is actually a 20 ap drop from live. With 4/5 feral aggression it'll increase to 290 ap reduction and 308 at 5/5 FA. The 4/5 version isn't even enough to overwrite a non-talented warrior's shout. Personally I'd spec 0/51/10 for a tanking build. 10% overall damage should be better for threat than 20% maul damage, and 3/5 furor still lets you start fights with 10 extra rage after a few shifts.

I just wonder that any one on beta did the -AP test on boss to find out the new -AP cap?

Khruschev · 10/09/08, 8:04 PM

Seminarca-

I wouldn't recommend Imp Mangle for anything but a pure Bear build. In PvE, it only provides a modest TPS boost for Bear (allows you to replace one Lacerate with a Mangle every 18s), and is of negligible benefit for Cat (assuming you have Shredding Attacks).

I'm personally struggling to decide between R&T +1 in KotJ or FI + full KotJ. I'll be running ZA as the OT mostly until WotLK lands... wondering if I can do without a supercharged Swipe for the AoE packs during chest runs. The MT is a Warrior with Imp TC, so I may try it.

While we're on the subject, is there a consensus on whether it's better to have PI or KotJ at 70? According to some of the numbers I've seen in this thread, it seems like they increase Cat DPS by a similar amount, making the primary difference between them their secondary effects-- a controllable threat boost for Bear or AoE mit in Cat.

Malazaar · 10/09/08, 8:14 PM

Originally Posted by Khruschev

While we're on the subject, is there a consensus on whether it's better to have PI or KotJ at 70? According to some of the numbers I've seen in this thread, it seems like they increase Cat DPS by a similar amount, making the primary difference between them their secondary effects-- a controllable threat boost for Bear or AoE mit in Cat.

I'd bet my money on KotJ, it increases your energy gain by roughly 15-20%, translating in something like 7-10% more DPS.

PI is just 10% more on Crits, with 50% Crit that is something less than 5% more DPS.

Valerian · 10/09/08, 8:20 PM

Hmm the theoretical max thats supposed to come out of that simulator is 5k? I can barely break 3800. I'm trying the free SR, mangle/rake as combo point builder and using Rip/FB (priority on Rip) for my finishers. Is there a point where we should be waiting for energy? I found myself waiting often enough to throw up Rake so I didnt lose its downtime, but that also somewhat stunted my combo point growth. Should I just be hitting whatever the "appropriate" move is whenever that amount of energy comes up?

Khruschev · 10/09/08, 8:36 PM

Originally Posted by Malazaar

I'd bet my money on KotJ, it increases your energy gain by roughly 15-20%, translating in something like 7-10% more DPS.

PI is just 10% more on Crits, with 50% Crit that is something less than 5% more DPS.

I was leaning the same way. Thanks for the confirmation.

Any thoughts on whether it would be better for a ZA OT to have FI + KotJ or R&T + 1 in KotJ?

Janraea · 10/09/08, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by ranma

3. a deathknight frost fever for you by sacrifice his dps(I guess frost fever isn't normally on their dps rotation list.). Nevertheless you can't have deathknight yet.

Frost fever comes from icy touch, which is included in every dps rotation at least every 18-20 seconds. It does only grant 16% slow though, for about a third of the builds currently favored.

And of course, we won't have them till later.

seminarca · 10/10/08, 1:51 AM

Well, consider the typical Feral role in Hyjal/BT if you've got a Protection Warrior in the raid:
Winterchill: DPS
Anetheron: DPS or picking up adds, not having an attack speed slow on add duty won't be a huge issue
Kaz'rogal: DPS
Azgalor: Picking up adds, same as Anetheron
Archimonde: DPS

Naj'entus: DPS
Supremus: tanking, but the Warrior would apply TClap
Akama: tanking adds, but it's a trivial fight
Teron: DPS
RoS: DPS
Bloodboil: tanking, but the Warrior would apply TClap
Mother: tanking, but the Warrior would apply TClap
Council: tanking Rogue or Priest, IW would be great in this fight
Illidan: tanking a Flame, IW would be useful in this as well

So in all T6 content, there are maybe 2 fights where you would really want to have it. In all others, it would simply be to make it so that your Prot Warrior doesn't need to apply TClap. If you want to make a case for this, by all means go ahead. There is certainly some value in having a constant application of the attack speed debuff without having it drop off due to resists and the increased cooldown on TClap (but not enough to make us use 3 points on it in a hybrid build in my mind).

When you get to Sunwell however:
Kalecgos: tanking, you'd definitely want IW for this due to the separate dimensions
Brutallus: tanking, your Warrior could apply it, but IW will save him having to, which makes it useful
Felmyst: DPS/skeleton wrangler wouldn't need it, but of course you'd want it if you were MT'ing her
Twins: same as Brutallus
M'uru: you'd want your own attack speed slow for door tanking
Kil'jaeden: can't comment since I haven't seen the fight

Which is why you'll notice I posted different builds, for different situations. If you put them into context, you don't really need IW in most of T6 content, whereas in Sunwell it would be greatly useful having it for a few fights.

Originally Posted by ranma

I assume you have 2*T6, since you can MT sunwell. In that case, you don't really need shredding attacks, since you already have improved mangle and 2*T6.

Did you mean "you don't really need Ferocity"? For Cat, I can see the argument in dropping it, but not for Bear. Or did you mean that with 2T6 and Imp Mangle we can switch to a Manglespam DPS cycle?

I did weigh a build without Feral Aggression, and that's a fair point about the Demo Roar ranks urotas. But consider: being in demon phase Kalecgos without having your portal coincide with the DPS Warrior (the previous tank's Demo Shout will only last up to a maximum of 30 seconds into your phase). Guess you could always get the Warlocks to use CoW. Brutallus, Felmyst and Twins should be fine having someone else cover it. On M'uru, if you end up on the Hunter door (as opposed to being with the melee group), you'd want your own Demo as well.

I don't know you can say something like "10% overall damage should be better for threat than 20% maul damage" though, when right on the previous page we've got the TPS per talent point chart:

Savage Fury: 357.19
LotP: 197.77
Primal Precision: 173.17
Rend & Tear: 117.54 <---------- O_o
Predatory Strikes: 101.2
Naturalist: 93.86 <------------ o_O
Imp Mangle: 89.74
Predatory Instincts: 86.08
Sharpened Claws: 79.11
Protector of the Pack: 65.1
Feral Instinct: 41.88
Shapeshifter (5): 41.3
SotF: 26.19

Maul does a LOT of damage now. It outdamages/outscales Mangle. It used to be a massive portion of our threat (for example, in the highest Druid TPS Teron parse in WowWebStats Tps Calculator, Maul comprised 53% of his total threat). In WotLK it will be bigger.

Originally Posted by Khruschev

I wouldn't recommend Imp Mangle for anything but a pure Bear build. In PvE, it only provides a modest TPS boost for Bear (allows you to replace one Lacerate with a Mangle every 18s), and is of negligible benefit for Cat (assuming you have Shredding Attacks).

Did you mean "assuming you have Ferocity"?

Imp Mangle is more than a modest TPS boost. Don't think of it as an extra Mangle every 18 seconds, think of it as a 33% bonus to Mangle threat. It's great especially when paired with Bear 2T6.

Garanthir · 10/10/08, 2:02 AM

Haven't seen it posted, but on Beta Glyphed Maul applies IW to both targets. That is pretty nice, and will help a lot on Muru door adds.

halmmar · 10/10/08, 2:05 AM

Originally Posted by seminarca

Maul does a LOT of damage now. It outdamages/outscales Mangle. It used to be a massive portion of our threat (for example, in the highest Druid TPS Teron parse in WowWebStats Tps Calculator, Maul comprised 53% of his total threat). In WotLK it will be bigger.

Indeed. It will also be better on packs of 2-3 mobs with Glyph of Maul . However, Naturalist would be better to have if you get to AoE-tank a lot.

Also, I believe the Naturalist talent counted as 5 points in that chart, while it actually costs 8-10 (Furor is just convenience, Imp.Mark could be useful in 10-mans and no other druid).

ranma · 10/10/08, 3:22 AM

@seminarca

I was talking about shredding attacks that you would specced for.

IMHO, you have 2t6 and improved mangle, you don't need shred in your cat dps rotation. and for bear tanking, I don't think rage would be ever a problem to spam lacerate. I was not against Rend and Tear. I actually think that talent is great for bear threat, because bears can utilize +20% haste windfury now.

summlan · 10/10/08, 4:56 AM

Originally Posted by Valerian

Hmm the theoretical max thats supposed to come out of that simulator is 5k? I can barely break 3800. I'm trying the free SR, mangle/rake as combo point builder and using Rip/FB (priority on Rip) for my finishers. Is there a point where we should be waiting for energy? I found myself waiting often enough to throw up Rake so I didnt lose its downtime, but that also somewhat stunted my combo point growth. Should I just be hitting whatever the "appropriate" move is whenever that amount of energy comes up?

The math seems to be alright, and the abilities seems to hit for the right amount. But the amount of damage is constant, you hit for the same amount of dmg with every hit, i dont know if that is the least amount of dmg done per ability (probably is) or the highest amount of dmg. On live your mangle wont hit for the exact amount of damage every time for example. Have to check that out.

The difference from nightcrawlers code is berserk, retri-aura, TF added damage and drums.
Theres no GCD since i dont think its needed, the DPS should be fairly accurate anyway since you still need energy.

I think il rewrite the entire simulator during the weekend since i dont like some of the code. And il add bersek, retri-aura, TF, drums etc. Il try to do something about the graphic aswell

david0925 · 10/10/08, 6:12 AM

Played with the simulation some more and got some numbers from doing 20 minute runs. This is prone to human error (mine), so use at own risk

2SR/5Rip: basically rip and SR are both always up, on simulation my DPS was roughly 3800-3850
4-5SR/5Rip/4-5FB Cycle: basically maintaining SR and Rip while trying to fit in another finishing move. Most of the time a 5FB can be achieved, but when abilities don't crit as much I have to settle for 3FB(which is roughly same DPM as mangle but better crit rate, so better than mangle) or 4FB(still better than a mangle)

The DPS range for this is 3950-4150. I can still improve my cycle, but as it appears for me personally, the DPS gain is from 100 to 300, while I can do 2SR/5rip in my sleep and do 5/5/5 when I stare at nothing but the debuffs of the mob and buffs of my own. Unless with practice I can keep up with 5/5/5 and pay attention to environment, I'll probably just do 2SR/5rip rotation on fights that requires any actual attention, and 5/5/5 on fights that I want to e-peen on and don't have to really look for anything (Patchwerk and Brutallus comes to mind)

For Berserk, I'll probably save 13 energy towards the end of the cycle to start a new savage roar so that it doesn't mess with my rotation too much. During Berserk I'm guessing a 5/(3-4 finisher) is possible, but letting savage roar drop because of the sudden increased energy requirement will be really bad.

urotas · 10/10/08, 6:29 AM

Originally Posted by seminarca

I don't know you can say something like "10% overall damage should be better for threat than 20% maul damage" though, when right on the previous page we've got the TPS per talent point chart:

Hmm I didn't consider maul being such a big part of our threat, as I thought the extra threat modifier on mangle would tip the balance in favor of naturalist. Now that I think of it maul is hitting for tons on beta and you're mauling far more often than mangling, so R&T being better sounds reasonable. I'll definitely consider taking it instead of naturalist when 3.0 comes for a tanking build.

nightcrowler · 10/10/08, 7:19 AM

@summlan:
it seems that you didn't take into account the following things:

-increased damage of shred
- trueshoot aura/unleash rage/abomination might
- retribution aura
- +14 weapon damage by stones
- increased damage of TF
- berserk
- heroism/bloodlust

Edit: wrong numbers

Removing those abilities/buffs from my simulation I had about 4150 dps. Using your simulation I have obtained 3950-4050 dps, it seems near enough.

Gurrshael · 10/10/08, 7:40 AM

Summlan: Also, there seems to be something broken with Shreds - the damage is the same regardless of thepresence of Mangle debuff.

Other than that, wonderful tool to practically test our cycles. Again, thanks a lot for this.

summlan · 10/10/08, 8:23 AM

Originally Posted by nightcrowler

@summlan:
it seems that you didn't take into account the following things:

-increased damage of shred
- trueshoot aura/unleash rage/abomination might
- retribution aura
- +14 weapon damage by stones
- increased damage of TF
- berserk
- heroism/bloodlust

Removing those abilities/buffs from my simulation I had about 4000 dps. Using your simulation I have obtained 3800 dps, it seems near enough.

Yep that seems right

Things i will fix.
- Shred damage
- FFF
- berserk
- bloodlust
- trinkets

For now il skip retribution aura, unleash rage, 14 weapon by stones etc.
They all add a static increase of dps. And i dont think its needed for this simulator (please tell me if im wrong)
Things like trinkets, bloodlust, berserk will be added since timing cooldowns is skill.

I just removed half of the code to make SCT look better, seems like building a combatlog-parser is the best way.
The code is running every 0.1 seconds so meleehits might be off depending on haste, lets say you melee every 0.764 second due to hasteeffects it wont go off until 0.8. And as im writing this i just found out how im gonna solve it.

New version should be up tonight or tomorrow depending on how much alt+tabbing il have to do at work

Snarley · 10/10/08, 9:03 AM

**EDIT** Removed to prevent confusion.

Davaeorn · 10/10/08, 9:12 AM

Shred	Rank 7
60 Energy	Melee Range
Instant
Requires Cat Form
Shred the target, causing 225% damage plus 405 to the target.  Must be behind the target.  Awards 1 combo point.  Effects which increase Bleed damage also increase Shred damage.

Mangle does in fact increase Shred damage, but I think the simulator assumes the presence of Trauma.

Sephreth · 10/10/08, 9:47 AM

Another little question : has anyone any stat about the relative value of any weapon enchant like Mongoose, Executionner, whatever for a dps purpose ?

mhr_78 · 10/10/08, 10:04 AM

What i am curious, wheres the dps benefit of a - let's say complex DPS cycle involving Shred, where a couple of things can happen that more or less break it on sub par dps. (3 combo points when you need to renew the bleed dot / Savage roar buff for example, movement in and out of melee range etc.)

Opposed to a simple Cycle that involves just Mangle / Rake for point generation then keep 3 or 5 CP Savage Roar up and use Rip / Ferocious Bite as Finisher.

The problem i see is that shred's energy cost is rather high, sure its better damage:energy but you should not forget that most of the bang of a feral druid might come from always finishing at 4-5 combo points. Especially getting more combo points / time might outweigh the paper benefit that Shred gives, especially when 2 non critting shreds are more fatal than three non-critting mangles.

tlbj6142 · 10/10/08, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Sephreth

Another little question : has anyone any stat about the relative value of any weapon enchant like Mongoose, Executionner, whatever for a dps purpose ?

Why yes, someone has...

Read the comments as well...