Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 116

seminarca · 09/09/08, 12:15 AM

We're getting daze immunity:

I believe bears with the right talents can avoid daze now. We discussed an implementation for that. It may not be in the data you have at the moment.

I'd assume the "right talents" would be Survival of the Fittest.

edit: Source

Lord BEEF · 09/09/08, 1:09 AM

The lack of intellect on gear can be easily remedied by Blizzard by changing heart of the wild to give an intellect boost based on your current stamina. I'll be sure to suggest this.

Disargeria · 09/09/08, 1:11 AM

Originally Posted by Nitz

Int still is necessary as a PvP stat. This is the PvP set you should worry about.

But it looks like a lot of people are looking at the Naxx gear (PvE) and demanding int on it for PvP.

Nathariel · 09/09/08, 2:51 AM

I couldn't care less if my PvE gear was weak in PvP and my PvP gear wasn't any good for PvE.

It would make a nice change from now, where some of the best raid dps gear is from Arenas and BGs.

We also need a little patience with the assessment of the T7 gear, thought having a cat and a bear set would be nice. Without a full set of talents, or even full sets of gear of a similar iLvl, it is impossible work out where we stand in relation to the other classes. Sure put forward that we don't scale as well with these stats, or if the iLvl was increased by 2 tiers, but comparing two classes if we don't use a weapon and they don't have trinkets is just wasting time.

Selmarix · 09/09/08, 4:08 AM

Originally Posted by Nathariel

I couldn't care less if my PvE gear was weak in PvP and my PvP gear wasn't any good for PvE.

It would make a nice change from now, where some of the best raid dps gear is from Arenas and BGs.

It is quite difficult in WotLK to make gear that is good for PvP but not good for tanking in PvE.

There are only 3 survival stats on leather that matter for tanking: armor, agility and stamina.
The amount of stamina on PvE gear is similar to what rogues use while on PvP gear stamina is traditionally a high value stat. So either there will be high stamina on leather PvE gear in general or low stamina on druid PvP gear or what is more likely PvP gear is better than PvE gear in respect to stamina.
Armor is fixed to item level on PvE leather now (no extra armor on those slots) so it will likely be equal between PvE and PvP (unless they want to favor PvP gear for tanking even more).
That only leaves agility. So will there be low agility on PvP gear? And even if that will be the case, will it make up for the likely higher stamina value?

Daboran · 09/09/08, 5:54 AM

Originally Posted by Duilliath

Totally fine. I'm okay with some choices made between Cat and Bear. I am not fine with having to declaw Catform completely to spec Bear.

And what I'm totally not pleased about is having to sacrifice BEAR talents because I can't fit them all into a proper Bear spec. Take Feral Aggression for example. Or even Master Shapeshifter. There's no way to currently take those without hurting your bear performance elsewhere. Yet, those talents definitely boost your bear performance. (By a valid margin or not is another matter entirely.)

Were it in the vicinity of 100% bear, 80% cat // 80% cat, 100% bear (or 90/90) - I'd be cool with it. I'm not in agreement with 95% bear, 50% cat.

I think this sums up my feelings also. The main attraction of Feral has for me been the ability to actually utilize effectively both Bear and Cat.

Though Catform did start to lag behind with poor scaling towards end-game, it was still more than possible with a gear change to output similar dps figures as other "support" classes such as Shadow Priest whilst keeping a maximal tanking build.

If the figures turn out for this to still be the case then I'm happy, but with changes such as the inability to take Shredding Attacks in a good tank build now, I'm doubting that this will be the case.

dukes · 09/09/08, 6:21 AM

Originally Posted by Selmarix

It is quite difficult in WotLK to make gear that is good for PvP but not good for tanking in PvE.

There are only 3 survival stats on leather that matter for tanking: armor, agility and stamina.
The amount of stamina on PvE gear is similar to what rogues use while on PvP gear stamina is traditionally a high value stat. So either there will be high stamina on leather PvE gear in general or low stamina on druid PvP gear or what is more likely PvP gear is better than PvE gear in respect to stamina.
Armor is fixed to item level on PvE leather now (no extra armor on those slots) so it will likely be equal between PvE and PvP (unless they want to favor PvP gear for tanking even more).
That only leaves agility. So will there be low agility on PvP gear? And even if that will be the case, will it make up for the likely higher stamina value?

Remember that Resillience is an ENTIRELY wasted stat for Bears now, so PvP gear will always be worse in an optimal case than the equivalent PvE gear. It won't make a huge difference, but it's something to give PvE gear the edge.

Selmarix · 09/09/08, 7:30 AM

Leather PvE gear is far from optimal from a survival point of view.

Compare TBC end game PvP rogue chest with the equivalent sunwell item:
[Brutal Gladiator's Leather Tunic]
[Bladed Chaos Tunic]

Even without the increased armor the PvP item is by far the better survival item for a WotLK feral tank despite all the wasted resilience on it. The price for the resilience comes from the dps/threat stats only.

Pharmacon · 09/09/08, 9:08 AM

Originally Posted by Duilliath

Totally fine. I'm okay with some choices made between Cat and Bear. I am not fine with having to declaw Catform completely to spec Bear.

And what I'm totally not pleased about is having to sacrifice BEAR talents because I can't fit them all into a proper Bear spec. Take Feral Aggression for example. Or even Master Shapeshifter. There's no way to currently take those without hurting your bear performance elsewhere. Yet, those talents definitely boost your bear performance. (By a valid margin or not is another matter entirely.)

Were it in the vicinity of 100% bear, 80% cat // 80% cat, 100% bear (or 90/90) - I'd be cool with it. I'm not in agreement with 95% bear, 50% cat.

Blizz has been making a conscious effort to prevent cookie cutter builds. This is evident in other class trees and has even been stated by blues. While some of the druids may see this as we are choosing between bear, cat, and Catbear, what you are suggesting is cookie cutter builds where you can have everything and therefore need to take everything and get no option to pick some talents over others.

Sure the tree feels a little bloated right now, but Blizz isn't done with it. Besides, other classes are facing the same tradeoffs, you call it 95% bear/50% cat, but I disagree; we're being forced to pick which talents are the best for what we want to do. When all is said and done, spreadsheets and tools like Rawr will address the mandatory talents and other talents will be what you feel helps you tank/dps better. That may come from Master Shapeshifter, Feral Aggression, or whatever.

Duilliath · 09/09/08, 9:35 AM

Simply put - people will put it in the spreadsheet and see which talents off the most bang for your buck. Just scroll up this thread and you'll find the exact listing already.

People will take those talents that give the most return and pass on the rest. Giving more choice will do nothing to change that. In short, you'll still have the same cookie cutter builds, just more talents that go by without being used.

tlbj6142 · 09/09/08, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Duilliath

People will take those talents that give the most return and pass on the rest. Giving more choice will do nothing to change that. In short, you'll still have the same cookie cutter builds, just more talents that go by without being used.

Actually, it will be worst. With too many talents to pick from those players that don't follow geeky theorycrafting will be farther behind those that do. Which has always been a big complaint I have about WoW. It sort of feels like you need to spend more time out of game understanding the game mechanics than you do actually playing. Thinner trees means less "wrong" talents and a better playing experience for those that don't spend time following EJ threads.

Malazaar · 09/09/08, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by tlbj6142

Actually, it will be worst. With too many talents to pick from those players that don't follow geeky theorycrafting will be farther behind those that do. Which has always been a big complaint I have about WoW. It sort of feels like you need to spend more time out of game understanding the game mechanics than you do actually playing. Thinner trees means less "wrong" talents and a better playing experience for those that don't spend time following EJ threads.

It's not like you can't look up other player's builds on the armory or even ingame - you don't need to understand why a spec is good to pick it.

Whether you utilize the given spec correctly is another matter but that would fall into the category of actual player skill i think.

In my experience, people have often come to the same conclusions via experience (trial and error) as others have come via theorycrafting. I guess people do whatever works for them best.

tlbj6142 · 09/09/08, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Malazaar

It's not like you can't look up other player's builds on the armory or even ingame - you don't need to understand why a spec is good to pick it.

I think the concept of a casual gamer and their mentality is very difficult for us to understand. I play with many of those types of players, and am constantly made aware (almost daily) at how difficult this game is play and understand without investing significant amount of effort outside the game. I really think Blizzard should do something about this, I'm sure it would help a significant portion of players whose accounts are terminated early continue playing. All they really need to do is provide some type of template mechanism in the game.

Ex. Until someone actually explained OoC to me, I thought it was a lame talent. I knew I was suppose to take it (from reading forums), but I didn't have a clue why. The tooltip text is nearly worthless. Clearcasting?

Merendel · 09/09/08, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Pharmacon

Blizz has been making a conscious effort to prevent cookie cutter builds. This is evident in other class trees and has even been stated by blues. While some of the druids may see this as we are choosing between bear, cat, and Catbear, what you are suggesting is cookie cutter builds where you can have everything and therefore need to take everything and get no option to pick some talents over others.

Sure the tree feels a little bloated right now, but Blizz isn't done with it. Besides, other classes are facing the same tradeoffs, you call it 95% bear/50% cat, but I disagree; we're being forced to pick which talents are the best for what we want to do. When all is said and done, spreadsheets and tools like Rawr will address the mandatory talents and other talents will be what you feel helps you tank/dps better. That may come from Master Shapeshifter, Feral Aggression, or whatever.

On the other hand haveing so many talents that people will classify as vital that you cant take them all or dont have any room for anything else just locks us further into cookie cutter builds. Currently you can take all the vital talents for bear tanking and still have 5-8 talents left over for flavor. for example I tend to take intensity because I like that extra instant boost of rage but its not vital and I've played without it with no impact on my overall performance. choices like that alow you max performance with a few luxury talents to tweek performance situationaly, this is good.

With the current state of the trees however you can not even maximize bear talents let alone pick up those luxury talents. This is bad as it will basically mean you have to spec X way or you will be inherently weaker than the bear that did and those other talents will only be used by the bored and ignorant.

I dont mind giving up some cat potential to maximize bear. I dont mind giving up some bear potential to maximize cat. I however do mind completely gutting one or the other to not even be able to maximize the one I picked.

Skytor · 09/09/08, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by dukes

Remember that Resillience is an ENTIRELY wasted stat for Bears now, so PvP gear will always be worse in an optimal case than the equivalent PvE gear. It won't make a huge difference, but it's something to give PvE gear the edge.

Or ... enough resillience from PvP leather is 3 talent points to spend elsewhere - which could matter if the tree and number of talents stays how it is now