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Old 09/09/08, 1:15 PM   #1741
Wyldthang
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Lightning's Blade
5) I think bears in particular could use a couple more situational abilities. We did lower the cooldown on Berserk and we might even do it again. I assume this doesn't count or you wouldn't be asking for more flashy abilities, but when I did Feral Charge as cat in Utgarde last night, the fight virtually stopped while everyone said "Wait? What did you just do? That looked so cool!"
Does anyone else get worried when they say things like this? I care less about cat charge looking cool than about being able to do similar dps in cat as a rogue if I'm specc'd fully for cat. The more time passes, the more blue comments I see that refer to the flexibility of druids as a justification for the dps limitation. I thought the whole point to bloating the tree to ridiculous proportions was to limit that flexibility and justify high cat dps in the first place.

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Old 09/09/08, 1:30 PM   #1742
Anaram
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Lightning's Blade (EU)
Originally Posted by Skytor View Post
Or ... enough resillience from PvP leather is 3 talent points to spend elsewhere - which could matter if the tree and number of talents stays how it is now
It's still 6% all stats for 3 talent points. They'd have to throw down a bunch of really strong talents to get a proper competition going I think.

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Old 09/09/08, 1:31 PM   #1743
Anaram
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Lightning's Blade (EU)
Originally Posted by Wyldthang View Post
Does anyone else get worried when they say things like this? I care less about cat charge looking cool than about being able to do similar dps in cat as a rogue if I'm specc'd fully for cat. The more time passes, the more blue comments I see that refer to the flexibility of druids as a justification for the dps limitation. I thought the whole point to bloating the tree to ridiculous proportions was to limit that flexibility and justify high cat dps in the first place.
I think they are referring to more utility abilities such as shield wall (other tanking classes have a clicky ability for -50% damage taken etc.)

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Old 09/09/08, 1:39 PM   #1744
Valerian
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Blackhand
Originally Posted by Wyldthang View Post
The more time passes, the more blue comments I see that refer to the flexibility of druids as a justification for the dps limitation.
Every blue quote I've seen is the exact opposite of the above. Cat form is not done yet. Every blue post lately has said this and say that they will be bringing cat dps up to a viable level. As long as our dps combined with our utility, when in a dps role, is on par with the other classes things will be fine and from what I've seen from the blue comments, this is their intent.

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Old 09/09/08, 1:42 PM   #1745
tlbj6142
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Steamwheedle Cartel
Originally Posted by Skytor View Post
enough resilience from PvP leather is 3 talent points to spend elsewhere - which could matter if the tree and number of talents stays how it is now
I thought resilience no longer "worked" inside instances.

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Old 09/09/08, 1:57 PM   #1746
TheNameLessOne
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Spirestone
Resilience will be useless in PVE. However from a tanking standpoint, there are stats that are also wasted for tanking on the PVE gear beyond some very minor threat increase (haste) or will be capped quickly and no upgraded needed (expertise). So what could very well end up happing is a mix of PVE and PVP gear could end up being the optimal tanking gear.

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Old 09/09/08, 2:03 PM   #1747
TimWischmeier
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Kult der Verdammten (EU)
Originally Posted by TheNameLessOne View Post
Resilience will be useless in PVE.
To further clear this: Will resilience be useless because we cann get crit immunity through talents, or will it be useless because they will introduce a new mechanism wich will sort like "disable" it in instances (which I would like to have a quote, because I have not read of something like this yet)?

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Old 09/09/08, 2:04 PM   #1748
Toranshalur
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Auchindoun (EU)
Does feral charge (cat) share the same cooldown as the bear charge?

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Old 09/09/08, 2:10 PM   #1749
Wildstyle
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Darkspear (EU)
Originally Posted by TheNameLessOne View Post
Resilience will be useless in PVE. However from a tanking standpoint, there are stats that are also wasted for tanking on the PVE gear beyond some very minor threat increase (haste) or will be capped quickly and no upgraded needed (expertise). So what could very well end up happing is a mix of PVE and PVP gear could end up being the optimal tanking gear.
Considering Maul has been buffed quite a bit and will now additionally be affected by Savage Fury and Mangle (and possibly RnT if you have the points spare) making Maul a huge threat/damage attack will result in Haste actually beeing a decent threat stat as it will allow for more Mauls in a certain period of time - especially since In quite a few cases we can't burn rage fast enough. So I wouldn't kock it off as a very minor TPS increase just yet.

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Old 09/09/08, 2:16 PM   #1750
tlbj6142
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Steamwheedle Cartel
Originally Posted by TimWischmeier View Post
To further clear this: Will resilience be useless because we cann get crit immunity through talents, or will it be useless because they will introduce a new mechanism wich will sort like "disable" it in instances (which I would like to have a quote, because I have not read of something like this yet)?
You are correct, resilience DOES WORK in PvE. We must have misunderstood some old blue post. But this recent blue post says just the opposite...


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Old 09/09/08, 2:23 PM   #1751
TheNameLessOne
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Spirestone
Originally Posted by Wildstyle View Post
Considering Maul has been buffed quite a bit and will now additionally be affected by Savage Fury and Mangle (and possibly RnT if you have the points spare) making Maul a huge threat/damage attack will result in Haste actually beeing a decent threat stat as it will allow for more Mauls in a certain period of time - especially since In quite a few cases we can't burn rage fast enough. So I wouldn't kock it off as a very minor TPS increase just yet.
Haste feeds one single attack; agility/crit and attack power feed all of them. That is why haste is such a poor tanking stat. You will still always be spamming mangle, lacerate and swipe.

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Old 09/09/08, 6:03 PM   #1752
Duilliath
Great Tiger
 
Duilliath's Avatar
 
Duilliath
Night Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
I also would not look at itemization and make any assumptions that we intend for end-game DKs to have lower survivability or threat generation than the 3 other tanking classes. If you end up wearing plate with wasted block and a lot of defense that benefits you less than a warrior, there will be other things to make up for it. Imagine we added a core DK ability that gives you +defense and +dodge whenever you wield a two-handed weapon. We could even make than a runeforge enchant. Imagine that DKs get double the benefit of parry on defense rating since they don't benefit from block. We have lots of knobs to turn.
He mentions Death Knights here, but the quote is interesting regardless. Druids are largely in the same boat, with wasted defense etc. I hope we can take this to mean that they'll sort out druids in a similar way.

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Old 09/09/08, 6:16 PM   #1753
Wyldthang
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Lightning's Blade
Originally Posted by TheNameLessOne View Post
Haste feeds one single attack; agility/crit and attack power feed all of them. That is why haste is such a poor tanking stat. You will still always be spamming mangle, lacerate and swipe.
Is that considering the reduction of global cooldown that goes with increased haste?

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Old 09/09/08, 6:21 PM   #1754
Selmarix
Piston Honda
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Turalyon (EU)
Originally Posted by Wyldthang View Post
Is that considering the reduction of global cooldown that goes with increased haste?
Haste does not reduce the global cooldown of melee or ranged abilities, it only reduces the global cooldown of spells.

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Old 09/09/08, 6:23 PM   #1755
Mijae
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Selmarix View Post
Leather PvE gear is far from optimal from a survival point of view.

Compare TBC end game PvP rogue chest with the equivalent sunwell item:
[Brutal Gladiator's Leather Tunic]
[Bladed Chaos Tunic]

Even without the increased armor the PvP item is by far the better survival item for a WotLK feral tank despite all the wasted resilience on it. The price for the resilience comes from the dps/threat stats only.
I definitely would not say the PvP item is far better for tanking. Bonus armor is gone, so it's pointless to compare armor. More total effective points does not necessarily make it a better item. As we saw in BC, there is somewhat of a soft-cap on health where adding more stamina becomes even less valuable. In the end, any agility usually ends up being a more worthwhile stat than stamina. Without the bonus armor and crit immunity from resilience, I'd have to actually check spreadsheets to see which is better. They are at least very close in value. 26 stam is probably better than 6 agi, but if you already have a large HP pool it might not be. It's definitely not enough that someone would go out of their way to PvP to get it if they don't like to.

In addition, it's not really valid to assume they will continue itemization formats into WotLK. Compare Tunic of Dislocation and LK Arena 1 Druid Melee Chest. Yes, one is rare and the other epic... however the ratio of agility to stamina is pretty close and expertise is a more useful tanking stat.


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