Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 118

Selmarix · 09/09/08, 7:03 PM

The rare PvP item as item level 200 epic would have 77 agi and 98 stamina. So at least at the start when you want a good amount of survival gear the PvP items will be the better choice.
Indeed, armor will be the same but stamina likely higher on PvP gear. Agility looks like it is plenty on the rare PvP gear we already know.

So the question is if expertise is enough to make PvE gear better than PvP gear for tanking.

aldy · 09/09/08, 8:18 PM

I honestly don't see why they don't just give parry to feral druids, it would solve most of the problems. If its from a "practical" standpoint, why can we take giant boss weapons with our heads/shoulders but not parry them with our paws? Obviously that point is ridiculous so there is no need to discuss that.

I don't see how druids can possibly scale alongside the other tanking classes when:
1) ferals scale with the fewest stats
2) the item budget is such that stacking fewer stats is more expensive.
For example, if the change from a full T7 warrior to a full T8 warrior is +5% hp, +3% dodge, +3% parry, +2% dmg reduction from block rating + block value, then a druid would have to have +5% hp, +8% dodge to scale the same, which would be much more expensive on the item budget (even when divided between agi and dodge rating). So what then, they plan to give druids higher ilvl gear? Of course not.

In BC they allowed druids to scale better than war/pally with armor (although they messed up and we capped early) and with agility (but too well) to offset this difference. Those are both being nerfed here in WotLK (with their plan to have all 4 tanks with same armor level, and the change to agi-->dodge ratio). With the addition of the DKs which are very much like druids (higher armor multiplier, cant use shields for block and block value), and their REPEATED statements that they want to consolidate gear, they have the perfect opportunity to make it easier on themselves by having DKs and ferals want the same gear in off-slots (neck, cape, ring, ring, trinket, trinket). Simply giving feral druids a talent that grants the ability to parry and scaling it with strength, they will have magically made it so that DKs and ferals want the same stats (stam, str, parry, and dodge). Most importantly, those pieces would STILL be good gear for pallies and warriors since they can use all of the stats (focus the block rating and value on their set pieces). I'm guessing they will never get rid of +defense on those slots, which is a waste for druids, but they can sort of balance that out by going lighter on +defense and the fact that ferals would benefit more from +armor.

All other proposed mechanisms (HP/armor scaling with str/ap/+def; larger hp pool with +healing modifier) would be much more difficult to implement and would really just be silly when there is such an easier fix.

I only keep up with Blue posts, but could someone with Beta access please just post:
1) feral druids scale with the fewest stats
2) the item budget penalizes stacking fewer stats
3) item level between classes in the same tier are equal
How can druids possibly scale equivalently to pally/warr/DK from tier to tier?
Answer: they cannot.
Solution: Give druids parry and parry from strength, they will then scale the same as DKs and it will only be a matter of ensuring that he DK/Feral pair scales alongside the Pally/War pair. Much easier design.

Pzychotix · 09/09/08, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by aldy

I only keep up with Blue posts, but could someone with Beta access please just post:
1) feral druids scale with the fewest stats
2) the item budget penalizes stacking fewer stats
3) item level between classes in the same tier are equal
How can druids possibly scale equivalently to pally/warr/DK from tier to tier?
Answer: they cannot.
Solution: Give druids parry and parry from strength, they will then scale the same as DKs and it will only be a matter of ensuring that he DK/Feral pair scales alongside the Pally/War pair. Much easier design.

I just answered this on the live forums actually.
WoW Forums -> Feral Tank in WOTLK is FINE.

Just because we scale with the fewest stats does not mean that we are automatically penalized compared to other tanks who can use a wide variety of stats. Whether a set number of item points is split between one stat or three, the ratio between the amount of stats gained is constant, and this holds true at any item level.

The ratios:
http://elitistjerks.com/879665-post1566.html

Assuming items with an equal split in item budget between all stats, you can sum that up with the item formula and actually get a linear dependency between the stat and the item level.

If there is only a single stat on the item, you get 1 stat point per item level (only if the stat cost is 1).
With 2 stats on one item (item budget split equally between the stats), you get 1.33 stat points per item level in sum.
With 3 stats on one item, you get 1.58 stat points per item level in sum.
With 4 stats it is 1.78 stat points per item level.
With 5 stats it is 1.95 stat points per item level.
With 6 stats it is 2.1 stat points per item level.

This is easily tested with the item value formula:
Item values - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
ItemValue = [(StatValue[1]*StatMod[1])^1.7095 + (StatValue[2]*StatMod[2])^1.7095 + ...]^(1/1.7095)

* 100 = [(100)^1.7095]^(1/1.7095)
      = [2(67)^1.7095]^(1/1.7095)
      = [3(79)^1.7095]^(1/1.7095)

* 1000 = [(1000)^1.7095]^(1/1.7095)
       = [2(670)^1.7095]^(1/1.7095)
       = [3(790)^1.7095]^(1/1.7095)

Small variations may exist due to poor rounding of the ratios, but you get the idea. This means that they can easily adjust only agi (if they chose to) to go inline with the correct ratio, and equalizing the benefits.

Thessaly · 09/10/08, 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by Pzychotix

Just because we scale with the fewest stats does not mean that we are automatically penalized compared to other tanks who can use a wide variety of stats. Whether a set number of item points is split between one stat or three, the ratio between the amount of stats gained is constant, and this holds true at any item level.

Unless the typical itemization for tanks has stats that do not benefit us.

Which leaves us where we were and are, looking for itemization that either only we want or that does not exist. They've stated, and the itemization on beta suggests that they want to streamline drop tables and limit the number of drops which only a small minority of class/specs can use. The problem that people have been stating, and asking people to advocate on the beta forums/feedback channels is that there is a fundamental problem making different tank classes use the same itemization, while those classes benefit from (in some cases, radically) different mitigation stats. A number of people have suggested ways out of this, it remains to be seen what Blizz will do.

I don't think arguing that theoretical, currently non-existent itemization, i.e., tank jewelry just for bears, which they've indicated they won't be making, means that Feral tanking is currently fine.

TheNameLessOne · 09/10/08, 1:09 AM

When four piece of your gear do not have the stats you want (ring, ring, neck and back) , you have dead slot (relic), your stats are not focused 100% on that super stat and the other tanks scale just as good as you do with a separate stat, you are not fine.

At a minimum defense needs to be made an equal stat across the board for all tanks as far as avoidance is concerned.

Mijae · 09/10/08, 1:14 AM

Originally Posted by Pzychotix

Just because we scale with the fewest stats does not mean that we are automatically penalized compared to other tanks who can use a wide variety of stats. Whether a set number of item points is split between one stat or three, the ratio between the amount of stats gained is constant, and this holds true at any item level.

* 100 = [(100)^1.7095]^(1/1.7095)
      = [2(67)^1.7095]^(1/1.7095)
      = [3(79)^1.7095]^(1/1.7095)

Unfortunately your numbers are quite wrong.

[3(79)^1.7095]^(1/1.7095) ~ 150
[3(53)^1.7095]^(1/1.7095) ~ 100

The more stats present on an item the more total points are given. Of course they could put more budget into some of the stats than others, but the further those numbers diverge from even the more total points are lost. By spreading the desired points over more stats other classes get more total points that benefit them.

These calculations only confirm this problem, not contradict it.

Fewer stats does not necessarily mean a weaker total, but in order to get the same beneift from fewer stats those stats have to scale faster. We scale higher with armor, equal with dodge, but lower for defense (and not at all for block/parry). This is what previous posts have been analyzing to show if/how we are falling short in scaling.

Pzychotix · 09/10/08, 2:53 AM

Actually, that was a major typo.

If you understand where I got the numbers from, you'll see it too.

If there is only a single stat on the item, you get 1 stat point per item level (only if the stat cost is 1).
With 2 stats on one item, you get 1.33 stat points per item level in sum.
With 3 stats on one item, you get 1.58 stat points per item level in sum.

The generalized form of the equation that I'm using is essentially:

iValue = [#stats * (iValue * (#Stat point ratio / #stats))^(1.7095)]^(1/1.7095)

If you look at the first and second equations, they conform to this formula:

1 stat:
100 = [1 * (100 * (1.00/1))^1.7095]^(1/1.7095) 
    = [(100)^1.7095]^(1/1.7095)

2 stats:
100 = [2 * (100 * (1.33/2))^1.7095]^(1/1.7095)
    = [2(67)^1.7095]^(1/1.7095)

3 stats should have been:
100 = [3 * (100 * (1.58/3))^1.7095]^(1/1.7095)
    = [3(53)^1.7095]^(1/1.7095)

I'm really not sure how I slipped in a 79. I'm a bit careless sometimes. /shrug.

If you don't believe me, use the generalized form for 4-6 stats. Those ratios will work regardless of what iValue you use.

And I'm not sure where people are getting the idea where I'm stating ferals are fine. That's no where near what I've stated. All I have stated is that even if bears only have one tanking stat, while plate wearers have three tanking stats to scale with, appropriate constant multipliers can be applied to ensure that your single tanking stat scales equally well to plate wearers who have three tanking stats. Because of this, plate wearers won't necessarily scale better than you just because they scale with more stats. All we have to do is ensure the appropriate multipliers are applied to our own stats.

Edit: Apparently I divided by 2 stats instead of 3 for third stats equation. That's what caused the incorrect number (1.58/2 = .79, when it should be 1.58/3 = .53). I did it again here, but I've corrected it.

Selmarix · 09/10/08, 3:40 AM

Indeed, it is correctable with the right multiplier on the Agi -> Dodge conversion.

The higher the multipliers the higher the effects of itemization oddities though. Especially if the items also contain a lot of low value stats like the new leather tanking gear.
What you get are cheap stats that have a high effect and the few items that happen to have a lot of them get far better than the alternatives.
Look at things like the armor trinkets. Nearly every feral tank wears the Badge of Tenacity despite that it is only a rare item, from Karazhan to high end content.

Warriors have a lot of different stats that are of similar values to them, some more, some less. That makes them far less vulnerable to differences in itemization.

Marek · 09/10/08, 6:27 AM

If Blizzard would use such a super stat to fix our scaling it would probably overpower us when we start to use gems and enchants (because both let us bypass the itemization formula and stack this stat to give us an edge over other tanks).

It IS possible to let us scale with fewer stats than other tanks but the stat that you will use for gemming (which has the best scaling) needs to give equal benefits.
Example: If druids are supposed to gem for agility and warriors are supposed to gem for parry rating the TTL for both tanks needs to increase equally. For druids the other mitigation stats would be close to the scaling of agility because they are more expensive. For warriors there would be a gap and other mitigation stats would provide lesser scaling because the raw amount of stats is greater than that of the druid.

Some more random thoughts:
1. We are supposed to wear rogue gear, so our best mitigation stat needs to be one of the stats on that gear. If the best mitigation stat for us ends up to be dodge we will either fall behind mitigation-wise (since the amount of dodge we have remains constant) or always have a slight edge over the other tanks (if our rogue gear scaling matches that of other tanks)
2. Not all stats on ring/neck/cloak items need to provide a benefit to us. As long as the bonus armor matches the benefit of strength and the additional benefit of defense on those items they are fine.
3. We *need* another mitigation stat that can be found on rogue gear. With only agility and stamina one of them needs to be overpowered to match the scaling of other tanks which can't be intended. My hottest candidate is armor because we can't gem for it and enchants are not multiplied by our armor modifier. So armor can be used to bridge the gap between our scaling on agility/stamina gear alone and other tanks scaling of gear with defense/parry/dodge/strength/stamina/(block value/block rating).

Nilaus · 09/10/08, 6:27 AM

Am I the only one who finds WotLK Ferals boring compared to other classes?

Warriors and Paladins get new abilities and new reactionary talents, especially Paladins are changing a lot (for the better), while Druid tanks simple get more of the same. I really don't care as much about the power level as I care about the number of abilities to use in different situations.

The best part of Feral in BC was the 80-90% warrior + 80-90% rogue with a change of gear, but that seems to be an idea they are moving away from.

The scaling with very few stats is something that worries me as well. It didn't work very well in BC, and I doubt it will work in WotLK either.

That was the rant part. What I think we need is a few more interesting dynamics:
Block or Parry based on Strength
True AOE ability (Swipe is not enough)
A proc based ability to break the monotony of a fixed TPS cycle

Astral · 09/10/08, 8:42 AM

I just wish they'd just let us have the big armor again. In one interview they say "Paladin is the best AoE Tank", "Deathknight is anti-Magic" "Warrior is...something". And then now they're like "We don't want any niches in tanking." Really? Then why is our "niche" the "only has dodge" tank? Our thing was, and should always be "we're bigger"

We're going to be forced to use rogue gear, we can assume we'll use some of the other off items (neck/cloak/rings/trinkets) as the other tanks, but not all of them (parry, block are wasted), so apart from those we need *something* that still sets us apart from the rest besides an extra average 26% armor (comparing Warrior Tank to Feral Naxx10 sets). 700 armor (3500 bear armor) on a weapon =/= 7000 on a shield at the same level. Shield makes up for a lot of the bonus armor we get above others.

So, why not just use the itemization we have and are forced to use, and change just one of our formulas. We could have yet another bear talent (or splice this in with the +6% dodge bear talent). We could call it "Swift Like Pandaren" (or Grizzly, whatever bear is most agile). All it would simply do is "You gain an additional 8 armor from each point of Agility while in bear or dire bear form", bringing our formula up to 1 AGI = 10 armor. (balancing this would be as simple as lowering that number to 6 or 8 if itemization goes well enough for us). What it basically does is make each point of AGI you have worth 1.45 item armor. We don't need too much, as we don't want to reach the armor cap with gear (it would make Mother Bear redundant), just enough to move towards the cap faster than the other 2-3 avoidance stat classes.

This wouldn't completely make up for lost enhanced armor on our gear, but would make AGI not only an Avoidance, but also a Mitigation stat for us (while Warriors/Paladins get block from STR). 79 AGI on Naxx10 item would give 790 armor. Socket an item with 16 AGI, get 160 armor (creating a mechanic to allow us to socket armor, without creating new types of gems). Enchants, Buffs, Totems, etc, all giving extra armor. Mongoose would turn into a 1200 armor proc, making it a great Bear enchant now that we can use it (also giving a small amount of dodge and haste). This would allow us to slowly build up armor as we progress. 800 AGI = 8000 extra armor, 900 AGI = 9000 armor, etc. (possibly matching with epic tanking shields per progression point) Each tier of gear would actually be worth more than just an extra 2% dodge.

It's not the end-all solution, but they have said something about not wanting to resort to giving bears Parry, but if they had to, it's an option. So instead, why not just keep us the way we were minus the defense (well, a lot of defense, it'll be impossible to avoid it anyway).

Although, they did give Shamans parry (talent), so it proves it's as simple and turning on a switch in-game.

Selmarix · 09/10/08, 9:06 AM

Originally Posted by Astral

We're going to be forced to use rogue gear, we can assume we'll use some of the other off items (neck/cloak/rings/trinkets) as the other tanks, but not all of them (parry, block are wasted), so apart from those we need *something* that still sets us apart from the rest besides an extra average 26% armor (comparing Warrior Tank to Feral Naxx10 sets). 700 armor (3500 bear armor) on a weapon =/= 7000 on a shield at the same level. Shield makes up for a lot of the bonus armor we get above others.

Ferals still have more armor than other tanking classes. Even without bonus armor on leather items ferals get about half a shield more from those slots than plate classes. The armor on weapon closes that gap and the extra armor on rings, cloak and the like give ferals an armor advantage.
Of course that kind of contradicts with the blue statements about ferals having similar armor or even slightly lower armor than the other tanks.

Nestario · 09/10/08, 9:16 AM

Originally Posted by Astral

Although, they did give Shamans parry (talent), so it proves it's as simple and turning on a switch in-game.

Shamans at least have weapons made of metal (or similar materials) that are harder than our paws.
Start thinking about what parry would do to the last bits of logic within the game.

Other than that the numbers may become better then but actually our numbers as well as the scaling seems fine (as described above) and its useless complaining about future items that will be released in about a years time may not be perfectly tailored for feral tanks.

Maybe i should add a reminder of the WOTLK-specific Guidelines since its getting boring lately:
Wishlists of new talents will not help anyone unless based on far more than your personal feelings.

Thessaly · 09/10/08, 9:33 AM

Originally Posted by Nestario

Shamans at least have weapons made of metal (or similar materials) that are harder than our furs.
Start thinking about what parry would do to the last bits of logic within the game.

Other than that the numbers may become better then but actually our numbers as well as the scaling seems fine (as described above) and its useless complaining about future items that will be released in about a years time may not be perfectly tailored for feral tanks.

Maybe i should add a reminder of the WOTLK-specific Guidelines since its getting boring lately:
Wishlists of new talents will not help anyone unless based on far more than your personal feelings.

You mean the bits of logic where level 5 Beasts can Block and Parry? It's totally logical for a Bear in Goldshire to do those things while a Dire Bear cannot. And given that our fur is at least twice as "hard" as the plate armor worn by other tanks at the moment, and our claws hit for substantially more than those bits of metal, I don't think it's really that much of a logical stretch.

Once again, Blizzard has advocated an itemization philosophy that suggests that the kind of items we would require with what amounts to a subset of the tanking stats available to other tanks will not be made in a year, or ever. We don't want items that are customized for Ferals. Then you get what we have now, using the same items as every other Feral and using the same items over several tiers of gear. We want to be able to take advantage of the same itemization that all tanks do.

Blizzard has stated they want every tank class to be able to be a MT, frequently giving the example that if you have two good tanking players who happen to play Paladin and Druid, you should be able to do all the content without ever saying "man, I wish we had a prot warrior". If you have two Druids, you're looking at a lot of the tank jewelry and accessories rotting because 75% of the stats on them are useless for us. This seems completely contradictory to their stated design philosophy.

My hope (and belief) is that they understand there are issues, but want to see numerically where things are in the actual game before radically changing mechanics. They've hinted that we have another big revision coming, but it really can't hurt to make them aware of what we, who've been playing the class for these last years, want and think is best within the constraints of their design philosophy.

Vidandric · 09/10/08, 11:57 AM

Why don't they do something simple to make the wasted stats useful for us? I'm not saying give us block or parry and whatever else. I'm saying do something like make it so block rating/value, parry, and even defense convert into something useful for druids like dodge, extra armor, or even another type damage reducing mitigation.

This way all those pieces of gear are not wasted and rot.